From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca on behalf of Cdn-Firearms Digest [owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca] Sent: Wednesday, 04 April, 2001 00:29 To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #707 Cdn-Firearms Digest Wednesday, April 4 2001 Volume 03 : Number 707 In this issue: Letter: `Four years not enough': This unlicenced street racer Letter: New gun law doesn't protect Letter: Imperfect regulations still lend sense of security Gunmen seize nine, including pregnant woman, during bungled robbery RE: Cdn-Firearms-Digest V3 #705 Teh Movie: 'Gun Fighter Retires' Linda's got the tight idea! Re: Instuctors email addresses Fighting activists ground using "attack technologies" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:59:03 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Letter: `Four years not enough': This unlicenced street racer killed a man Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca PUBLICATION: The Province DATE: 2001.04.03 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: Editorial PAGE: A25 BYLINE: Ray Mickus SOURCE: The Province DATELINE: VANCOUVER ILLUSTRATION: Photo: (Kwok Kei (Cliff) Tang) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- `Four years not enough': This unlicenced street racer killed a man - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Kwok Kei (Cliff) Tang received just four years for killing a pedestrian during a high-speed car race in Vancouver last June. He'll be out in 18 months. Street racers will be spinning their wheels in delight at the light sentence. It'll be racing as usual in the city. The judge must have been biting his lip to keep from laughing when he pronounced sentence while saying, ``street racing is not to be tolerated.'' If you want to kill someone, leave the at home (a 25-year sentence for sure) and use the car. If you're not racing, it'll be even less time than the cruel and unusual punishment of four years. Ray Mickus, Vancouver ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:59:11 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Letter: New gun law doesn't protect PUBLICATION WINNIPEG FREE PRESS DATE : TUE APR.03,2001 PAGE : A11 CLASS : Letters to Editor New gun law doesn't protect I am in complete agreement with Val Werier's opening statement in his column Canada should oppose Star Wars (March 22). He then moves to the Canadian law and attempts to demonstrate this law is "just and fair" through a discussion with an American member of the National Rifle Association. He further suggests that the possession of guns has made Americans more warlike than Canadians. Like most law-abiding owners in Canada, I strongly support "control." We had one of the most effective control systems of any country before the Liberals passed the new law. This law, in many respects, is similar to the law made by Hitler when he took control of Germany. This law is touted as being made to protect Canadians. To date, I have not heard or read of one incident where it can be proven to have done so. So far the government has admitted to spending about $500 million on registration. It has a long way to go to finish the process. Imagine how much better that money could be used to protect citizens if it was spent on our greatly understaffed police force, many of whom must spend much of their time on this ineffective law. Three other facts I would hope Val would consider in his "informal survey" are: 1. Every home in Switzerland by law must have a gun. Switzerland has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. We all know they are not inclined to war. 2. Since the U.K. and Australia introduced similar laws to ours and confiscated the most guns, and not as in Canada, paid for them, crime has increased in both countries. 3. The state of Vermont has the most lax gun laws in the U.S.A. and the lowest crime rate. I have enjoyed Val Werier's columns for many years and hope to continue to do so for a few more. J. ROSS SINGLETON Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 09:02:24 -0600 From: "Gordon Hitchen" Subject: Letter: Imperfect regulations still lend sense of security From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Letter: Imperfect regulations still lend sense of security Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:24:24 -0400 PUBLICATION: The Telegram (St. John's) DATE: 2001.04.02 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: Editorial PAGE: 6 BYLINE: Ted Hannah SOURCE: The Telegram DATELINE: ST. JOHN'S - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Imperfect regulations still lend sense of security - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Ian P. Berg states in his letter `` registry won't fight crime'' (Sunday, March 25) that `` registration does not stop crime but only infringes on the privacy of law-abiding citizens.'' He then goes on to draw a parallel with vehicle registration by saying that ``(it) will prove to be as effective in stopping crime as motor vehicle registration is in stopping traffic accidents.'' MY POINT EXACTLY Unwittingly perhaps, Mr. Berg has lent his support to the precise argument favouring stronger controls that so many of us make. We have never claimed vehicle registration and licensing of drivers prevents traffic accidents. Nor have we ever claimed that registration and owner licencing will stop crimes dead in their tracks. But surely even Mr. Berg will have to admit that he has a somewhat greater sense of safety and protection when he ventures out on our streets and highways because vehicles are registered (and therefore insured) and drivers are licensed (and therefore modestly competent). No system is perfect -- they are designed by humans, after all. But they are designed with certain societal goals in mind. Vehicle registration and driver licensing were designed for very good reasons. The slight infringement on individual privacy is a small price to pay for the greater good and I doubt very much even Mr. Berg would want them abandoned. The same applies, in my view, to registration. All I ask of Mr. Berg is a little civic ``quid pro quo.'' I will continue to support an imperfect vehicle registration and driver licencing system for his sense of safety and protection if he will support an imperfect registration and owner licencing system for my sense of safety and security. Mr. Berg? Ted Hannah, St. John's ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:26:31 -0400 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Gunmen seize nine, including pregnant woman, during bungled robbery PUBLICATION: Edmonton Journal DATE: 2001.04.03 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: News PAGE: A1 / Front BYLINE: Jim Farrell, Journal Staff Writer SOURCE: The Edmonton Journal DATELINE: Edmonton ILLUSTRATION: Colour Photo: Journal Stock / (Sultan Jaber); Colour Photo: Edward Parsons, The Journal / (Pizzeria hostage drama); Colour PHOTO: Edward Parsons, The Journal / A police officer stands guard over a man who gave himself up after a hostage-taking in Mill Woods. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Pizzeria hostage drama: Gunmen seize nine, including pregnant woman, during bungled robbery - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- With a pistol pointed at his head, night manager Sultan Jaber calmly answered the phone at his pizza restaurant in Mill Woods. It was just after 2:15 a.m. On the other end of the line, the police dispatcher wanted to know why someone had dialed 911 from the restaurant, then hung up without saying anything. ``Is this Mama Pizza?'' the dispatcher asked. ``Yes.'' ``Do you have a problem?'' ``Yes'' ``What is the nature of your problem?'' ``Yes.'' ``Is there some reason you can't tell me your problem?'' ``Yes.'' Jaber said goodbye and hung up. The dispatcher sent a patrol car to the restaurant, telling the officer it was ``trouble not known.'' Expect anything. In this case, the anything was an armed robbery gone wrong, a botched job that ended up with hostages tied up and dozens of police officers surrounding a restaurant in Mill Woods. Jaber, 22, said he was expecting a quiet night when he left home about midnight Sunday to walk to the restaurant his family owns, where he has worked since he was a small boy. It was after 2 a.m., a few customers were sitting around eating late meals, talking, playing VLTs and listening to background music, when a man walked in offering jewelry for sale. Jaber said the man was offering ``fake gold'' and was only there for a minute or two. ``Maybe he was casing the joint,'' he said. Moments later, someone started screaming outside the restaurant. ``As I was about to go outside, a man came in wearing a black balaclava and armed with a handgun. He ordered everyone back towards the women's washroom.'' The gunman didn't realize a woman working in the back of the restaurant was in the process of phoning 911. As an emergency dispatcher answered her call, the gunman drew nearer. The woman hung up. In the washroom, nine people, including one staff member more than eight months pregnant, were told to lie on the floor. As the masked robber began tying them up with a roll of duct tape, the second gunman, who was unmasked, asked Jaber who he was. ``When I said I was the night manager he told me to take him to the safe.'' Jaber gave the gunman every bill, every toonie and every loonie in the safe. The gunman told him to open the till and every VLT in the adjoining bar. ``As I approached the till, the phone rang,'' Jaber said. The unmasked gunman told Jaber to take the call. He picked up the phone; it was the police dispatcher. Jaber felt strangely calm and focused. With a at his head, Jaber pretended the caller was someone who wanted to speak with a customer who'd already left. To every one of the dispatcher's questions, he answered ``yes.'' ``I felt him push the harder against my head,'' Jaber said. ``I looked at him and he was shaking his head. I put the phone down.'' Moments later the first police cruiser arrived outside Mama Pizza near the intersection of 29th Avenue and Millwoods Road West. Through the windows of the restaurant, the unmasked gunman saw the police car pull up. He decided to make a run for it. ``He opened the side door and went outside. A cop was already there with his out,'' Jaber said. The gunman ducked back into the restaurant as Jaber opened the front door and ran for his life. He made it. The masked gunman was still in the bathroom, taping up the hostages. After thinking it over, he walked out the front door at 2:45 a.m. and surrendered. Now unguarded, the nine hostages, two men and seven women, began struggling with the tape that bound them. One by one, they freed themselves and dashed out the door. Within 15 minutes all nine were led to safety. Some of the women were in tears. More police arrived, then the tactical squad arrived in force with their black balaclavas, bullet-proof Kevlar helmets and vests and Heckler and Koch submachine guns. One squad member carried a high-power sniper rifle. The 40 officers outside the pizza restaurant Monday didn't know if all the hostages had made it out so they surrounded the entire mall. Some tactical unit officers propped ladders against the sides of the mini-mall's buildings and climbed onto the roofs. Traffic officers blocked off all streets around the mall to keep civilians out of the area. A self-propelled police robot rolled out of a large white van. The robot carried listening devices and a TV camera. Guided by radio signals and powered by an electric motor, it was supposed to roll up to the front of the restaurant and act as the officers' eyes and ears. It ran out of juice while still 50 metres away. Its batteries hadn't been fully charged. A police cruiser slowly moved to a position beside the robot, acting as a metal shield for a pair of officers walking beside it. Grunting and straining, the officers pushed the robot back to its van. All this time, a police negotiator was trying to phone the restaurant. No one answered. Using bullhorns, police called out, ``this is the police tactical unit. Please go to the phone and pick up the phone.'' Nothing. Creeping along the front of the mall, a half-dozen tactical squad members approached the front windows of the restaurant, then stopped and waited an hour, just out of sight of any potential gunman. At 6:45 a.m., they smashed in a front window of the restaurant, then continued their wait. At 6:55, one of the officers pitched in a stun grenade. A thunderclap echoed through the mall. At 7:20 a.m., an officer pitched in another grenade. Still nothing. A tactical squad member who wielded a bullet-resistant shield crept to the front of the line. At 7:30 a.m., the squad members charged into the restaurant. It was empty. It had taken the officers too long to realize there was another way out of Mama Pizza. Police believe they know who they're looking for, however. The suspect -- 43-year-old Ronald Mah -- is wanted in connection with a series of robberies in Edmonton and Calgary dating back to October 2000. Prior to Monday, Mah's most recent alleged crime was the March 27 robbery of the Lynnwood branch of the Bank of Montreal in Edmonton. He's also wanted on a Canada-wide arrest warrant for parole violation. Curtis James Ebeltoft, 27, is already in custody, facing charges of robbery with a firearm, unlawful confinement, using a disguise during a criminal offence, unlawful possession of a firearm during a criminal offence, possession of a restricted weapon and pointing a firearm. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 09:09:55 -0600 From: "Gordon Hitchen" Subject: RE: Cdn-Firearms-Digest V3 #705 From: "Larry Neufeld" Subject: RE: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #705 Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 09:15:00 -0500 >From: "Linda & Rory" >Subject: (Revised) semi-trailers, ads, etc. > >Linda wrote: > >The fact is, you "cannot" combine "fighting" >the Firearms Act with promoting firearms >"organizations". These are two totally >separate issues, and you will never succeed >in fighting the Firearms Act if you insist >on combining the two. Linda, I strongly disagree with your comment. To effectively represent the cause we need to encourage firearm owners to come out of the closet and be an example to the community. we need to demonstrate that we are responsible and valued members of society. Preventing firearms organisations from identifying themselves through the material they post sends a dangerous message to the firearm community that it's ok to fight from the closet. Sorry Linda, employing gorilla tactics of "Hit & Hide" will do us more harm than good! Let's not hide our associations, let us promote them. Larry Neufeld Firearm owner NFA member Selkirk G&F member Winnipeg G&F member Stony Mountain G&F member North American Hunting Club member Manitoba Repeater Society member and more .... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 00:24:02 -0600 From: "Gordon Hitchen" Subject: Teh Movie: 'Gun Fighter Retires' From: "Linda & Rory" Subject: Re: THE MOVIE "GUN FIGHTER RETIRES" Date: (No, or invalid, date.) Bob wrote: "SCENE: Loutish, politically incorrect, gun fighter removes his sidearm and walks slowly into the sunset, spurs jingling." Loutish at times, politically incorrect for the best of reasons, also entertaining, informative, and highly intelligent, I hope Ann takes care of the treasure she has. Peter will be missed. Linda ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 00:26:02 -0600 From: "Gordon Hitchen" Subject: Linda's got the tight idea! Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 13:38:23 -0700 From: "Hoenisch, Frederick W ISTA:EX" Subject: Linda's got the right idea! ...The fact is, you "cannot" combine "fighting" the Firearms Act with promoting firearms > "organizations". These are two totally separate issues, and you will > never succeed in fighting the Firearms Act if you insist on combining the > two...make the mistake of trying to promote them to any of the millions > who know little or nothing of the Firearms Act as a joint effort to fight > the Firearms Act. You WILL destroy any chance of defeating the Firearms > Act if you do this... > > For the most part, I agree with Linda. That is, if we continue to fight the Firearms Act with the techniques/methods that I've seen thus far (by directly blasting the Liberals, blasting Wendy, suggesting to use logos in big shiny lights everywhere, etc...), then yes, we are going to lose. In previous posts, I attempted to 'politely' suggest that the "firearms community" is seen as a group of people that the public generally fears ("paranoid gun freaks"). So there's no misunderstanding, when I wrote "firearms community" I was really speaking to the NFA organisation (because they are the most outspoken to the general public on firearms issues). A number of NFA supporters who contribute regularly on this listserver (and NFADigest) apparently struggle with understanding that the MAJORITY of the population do not associate 'good citizens' with the NFA (even though they are trying to protect citizen rights, freedoms, property, etc...). As a member of the NFA (and other clubs), I'm working hard to change the negative perception against the NFA, but that is no small task. With this public's perception hanging over us, any attempt that we take to fight the Firearms Act will be ignored - In other words, we lose. As I previously wrote, I believe the best approach to fighting the Firearms Act now is to market the 'good' things the firearms community does (including the NFA), in order to build public support. Once this is achieved, then we'll have an easier job challenging/changing the Firearms Act. Yours truly, Fred. Disclaimer: The opinions and statements contained in this posting are the sole responsibility of the author and have not in any way been reviewed or approved by my employer or any network service. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 00:18:24 -0600 From: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Re: Instuctors email addresses At 09:43 PM 2001/04/02 -0600, you wrote: >Does anyone know of a PAL "restricted" instructor in the Kamloops or = >Clearwater area of BC????? The one that I know of isn't available to a = >while and was wondering if there was any other. Email address would be = >great. Thanks > >Philip If you go to the BCFW website (I think it's bcwf.bc.ca) they have a searchable database of CORE instructors. Most of them also teach the CFC courses. Christopher ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:33:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Jim Powlesland Subject: Fighting activists ground using "attack technologies" >From BCWF Alerts ****************************** AGRICULTURE TOLD TO FIGHT ON ACTIVISTS' GROUND USING 'ATTACK TECHNOLOGIES' OR FACE DESTRUCTION Feedstuffs, 3/26/01 By ROD SMITH Feedstuffs Staff Editor KISSIMMEE, FLA. -- Pork producers were advised at their annual business meeting here that agriculture's attackers are vulnerable -- but vulnerable to attack tactics, not appeasement or public relations. Activists' attacks on companies, products and livelihoods "are not public relations problems," Nick Nichols said. "They are crises, and they require crisis management." Agriculture needs to use "attack technologies," he said, quoting gangster Al Capone, who said: "You can get more with kind words and a smile and a gun than you get with kind words and a smile." Nichols, chief executive officer of Nichols Dezenhall, a communications and crisis management group in Washington, D.C., said the attack industry is a $6 billion industry, referring to the annual funding of activist groups in the U.S. He said they capture this funding by creating "victims," "villains" and "vindicators." He said victims are "vulnerable" people such as children or elderly people -- and consumers -- or animals, nature and the earth itself. He said villains are companies and producers, especially ones with deep pockets, and vindicators are activists who believe their way is the only, and right, way, such as "huddites" who oppose technology, protectionist reporters, lawyers and regulators and "legislators who go 'political' in the middle of crises." Activists and huddites get notoriety, which leads to contributions and funding, and get to push their agenda, he said; reporters get to write about controversy, lawyers get clients and contingency fees, legislators get to legislate and regulators get to regulate. "And you get destroyed," he said. Nichols said producers get destroyed because they don't recognize the critical rule to prevent crisis: "To survive in any situation, don't look like food." He explained that "you start to look like food when you don't fight back but engage in appeasement and let the vindicators divide" an industry or segments of an industry. Attackers fight with emotion, Nichols said, using "precautionary principles" where an allegation that can't be proven wrong becomes a possibility for which there needs to be precaution, theoretical risks where an allegation of something that's never happened becomes something that still might occur someday, scientific division and politicized debate. Attackers fight aggressively with kids and people who have been "wronged" as spokespeople, and attackers fight globally on several fronts with guerilla tactics, he said. On the other hand, companies and producers respond defensively with science and scientist spokespeople and respond on only the local front with conventional tactics, he said. "This is a good way to look like food." Nichols described a crisis threshold as a line over which reason turns to hysteria and outrage, and he said the plan should be to attack back before being pulled over the line. When a company or industry goes past the line, "it's in serious trouble," he said. (In response to a question, he said a company pulled past the line may spend $500,000-700,000 a month on crisis management counseling and legal bills.) In a crisis, Nichols said, it's too late for public relations, which he called "a feel-good" strategy and compared it to "taking a poodle to a Rottweiler show." He said attackers don't want to feel good, don't want to compromise and want to win, "and your survival is at stake. The landscape is littered with businesses and products that these people destroyed." Nichols said companies and producers under attack should attack back by driving home the benefits of a product that "are personally relevant" to consumers and establishing risk for the attackers by "tearing down their mantle of virtue," i.e., showing that the attacker wants to take away something society values such as family farmers who produce chickens or livestock for integrators. He said companies and producers need to gather information about attackers, move quickly with both defensive and offensive strategies, deploy globally, fight like guerrillas and "take no prisoners." He said messages should be based on science but still be emotional and messengers should be charismatic and credible. "Think about the message," he urged. "Think about the messenger." He recommended "protests against the protestors," including filing lawsuits against them and using, as messengers, the same "vulnerable" children, elderly and "Mother Earth." However, Nichols said, "you have to want to win. You have to get in the trenches and fight." He said "capitulation counseling" is not the advice to which to listen, noting that capitulation counselors say attackers will go away if one appeases them and gives in to them. "Sure, they will go away because they got what they want, and they'll be back in a year," he said. He concluded with a quote from his own partner, Eric Dezenhall, who said: "If you live by the sword, you may die by the sword, but if you live by the olive branch, you may still die by the sword." Nichols spoke at the National Pork Industry Forum to producer delegates to the National Pork Producers Council and National Pork Promotion & Research Board. ****************************** ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #707 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@home.com List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v03.n198 end (198 is the digest issue number and 03 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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