From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca on behalf of Cdn-Firearms Digest [owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca] Sent: Sunday, 22 April, 2001 19:57 To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #733 Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, April 22 2001 Volume 03 : Number 733 In this issue: RCMP HARASSMENT Looking for Rifle Police State [none] Re: RCMP HARASSMENT [humor] Death and taxes... [none] I am :Joe-Canada, Environment Voters target Harris M.P.P.s Shall we fight? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:57:08 -0600 From: "Bob Lickacz" Subject: RCMP HARASSMENT The following is a statement forwarded to me by the person involved. This person wishes to remain anonymous, until the appropriate charges have been laid. Please read this deposition carefully. You may be stopped at any moment by the police, and everyone should have the knowledge to deal with an illegal search and seizure. Bob Lickacz NFA Edmonton Following is the statement of events that occurred at an RCMP Highway Stop 4 kms south of Amerada Road, on Highway 2, southbound lane, (12 kms north of Carstairs turnoff.) The incident happened on Friday 13th April at 09.40 a.m. and concluded at 10.35 a.m. I was driving south on Highway 2, and saw flashing lights on the road ahead. I observed RCMP cruisers with flashing lights blocked the road, and there were lines of cones that funneled all traffic into one lane. An officer in a yellow coat was directing traffic into what appeared to be a "Check Stop." The officer watched as I slowed down and indicated that I pass right through the stop, and motioned to proceed slowly. As I passed him he looked at my license plate and then to a clipboard he was holding. He did a classic "double take," then keyed his radio and transmitted. (I saw this clearly in my side mirrors, and remarked to my wife that this was no random stop, and I figured there was something special planned for us.) As the officer transmitted this message, I was approaching the tail end of about twelve motor vehicles being processed through the Check Stop. The officer in the yellow coat had previously directed me to pass through the Check Stop, but after the transmission an officer well ahead of the (approximately,) twelve cars stepped into the roadway and directed I pass them and pull in beside him. My wife and I remarked that it was strange that we should be treated differently than the other vehicles passing through the stop. RCMP Officer #1 approached my vehicle, (a two-tone white and grey truck) and demanded my license, registration and insurance. This was different from the standard procedure in all the other "Check Stops," where the officers never demanded documentation from me. I gave the documents to the RCMP Officer #1. He asked where I was going. I answered I was visiting Calgary for Easter, as I had each year for the past twenty years. The officer asked for what purpose. I remarked that I found his question intrusive. He asked what I intended to do that day. I answered that I intended visiting the antique show for about four hours, then visiting friends for dinner afterwards. The officer asked if I knew that a gun show was being held in Calgary. I told him I did, as it is held in the next building to the antique show. The RCMP Officer #1 asked, "Are you carrying any firearms?" I replied that I was not personally carrying any firearms. I asked him what prompted such a question. He replied that there had been a homicide in Edmonton, and "Edmonton Police Service" had ordered all white trucks to be stopped and searched." My wife asked RCMP Officer #1 why they hadn't stopped the four white trucks that were driving past the Check Stop? He did not reply to that question. He then said he was unable to see through the windows in the side of the rear part of my truck. I suggested he take that up with the manufacturer as they built the vehicle that way. The constable then asked if it was "O.K." for him to have a look through the vehicle. I asked him if I was being detained or placed under arrest. He replied I was not. I replied that in that case I would leave unless he was prepared to either arrest or detain me and obtain a search warrant backed by reasonable grounds to search my vehicle. I asked if I could leave. He replied that I could not. I then stated that he was illegally detaining me and violating my Charter Rights. RCMP Officer #1 then suggested that if I allowed him to look in the box of my truck, (covered by a fiber glass cover,) that he would allow me to proceed on my way. I agreed, opened the box lid, and he examined an empty gas can and an empty plastic box. There was nothing more in the box. The constable said he would check my papers against his computer and I should wait in my truck. I was becoming irritated at this "special" treatment and told him so. He went to his vehicle and then returned, still not handing back my documents. He asked if I had a gun case on the back seat of my vehicle. I replied that I had a suitcase on the back seat of my vehicle, and told him I believed I was being illegally targeted, and believed his actions were unlawful, as he was detaining me without access to counsel. I asked him what had shown up on CPIC. He did not answer. He then said he saw a gun case in the rear of my vehicle, (which was an impossibility, as he previously said he couldn't see into the rear of the cab,) and asked did I have a gun case there. I replied that I did, and in fact I had two, but they did not contain live firearms, so my replies had been truthful. He demanded to be allowed to inspect the contents of the cases, and I replied that he could not unless he obtained a warrant, and provided reasonable grounds. He then walked to a police cruiser behind my vehicle and returned with an RCMP Officer #2. I walked around to the passenger side of my vehicle and the RCMP Officer #2 introduced himself. He stated that the RCMP were searching all white trucks as there had been a homicide in Edmonton and they (RCMP) were requested to do so. I asked him for details on the alleged homicide and he replied he was not authorized to discuss police matters. I said he may not search my truck without a search warrant and then only after I had opportunity to contact legal counsel. The RCMP Officer #2 moved forward and said that he would inspect the contents of my vehicle. I did not resist as he opened the rear door, and I handed him the two cases. I believed that any resistance on my part would have led to violence by the two police officers. The first case contained a Bren Mk I Light Machine Gun complete with a magazine. The RCMP Officer #2 said that I had lied when I said there were no firearms. I advised him that the Bren was deactivated and the magazine welded. Further the Bren conformed to the deactivation "guidelines" and was not a firearm by definition of the Criminal Code Section 84 (3) and was not subject to any provisions of either the Criminal Code or the Firearms Act. The RCMP Officer #2 asked how I knew the relevant section, and I replied that I was a student of firearm law. He observed that with the new laws, police didn't know what to enforce and that he was an ordinary cop, who didn't want to get involved in politics etc. He asked who owned the Bren gun. I replied that it was the property of Collector #1 from Saskatchewan. Collector #1 had received it as a deactivated arm but had asked me to inspect it for conformance with the "guidelines." I also told the RCMP Officer #2 that the Bren was not deactivated in my opinion when I received it, and I upgraded it so that it was properly deactivated. I added this was done as a personal favour to Collector #1 who was an old friend of mine. He then checked a rifle AR 15, Model M-16, and a Chinese AK 47 rifle. I advised him that I bought the two from a Canadian who had served in the U.S. army in Vietnam. The veteran had imported them on his return to Canada in 1969 according to my information, and at that time they were inspected and approved as deactivated by Canada Customs. The veteran recently decided to sell them and offered them to me, only providing pictures of them. I purchased them and he shipped them from Newfoundland. I received them a week previously and was delivering them to a Calgary firearms dealer I had sold them to, and he would upgrade the deactivation to conform to legal requirements and the current guidelines. The RCMP Officer #2 stated he did not have the expertise to determine if the guns were deactivated or not, and would "call in RCMP firearms experts from the Customs and Excise department." (His words.) I replied that as I had been a victim of Charter Rights violations, illegal detention, and illegal search and seizure that he had better formally arrest me or I was leaving. He ordered me not to leave, directed me to wait in my vehicle and said the experts would arrive "soon." I asked if I was under arrest or was being lawfully detained, and received no answer. My wife advised the corporal that she had counted ten white trucks allowed to pass unhindered through the check stop while they were harassing me. I requested the RCMP Officer #2 to move closer to the passenger side of my vehicle so that my wife could witness what I said to him. I told him that I was illegally targeted by the RCMP, my Charter Rights were violated, I was a victim of unlawful arrest and detention, and that he had ordered my vehicle searched in the full knowledge his actions were not lawful, and that he had seized and was unlawfully holding my goods. He did not reply. The firearms experts RCMP Officer #3 and RCMP Officer #4 arrived less than five minutes after they were called on the cruiser radio. I believe they were parked just up the highway. I recognized the charcoal coloured Dodge mid size truck as being similar to one that I had passed, and it had passed me several times since leaving Leduc. It, my vehicle, a Volkswagen Jetta and a Pontiac Grand Am passed each other several times. I asked the two experts how they arrived so soon. They replied they were on other business, and happened to be in the area. They indicated they came from Calgary, but were unwilling to answer my questions about why they arrived from the direction of Edmonton. They couldn't have come from Calgary, it was an hour and fifteen minutes away. They later said they were going to the gun show. So why would they be eighty miles north of the city, when they both lived there? Oh yes, it was a set up. RCMP Officer #4 examined the three deactivated firearms and the three magazines. RCMP Officer #3 approached me and said that he agreed the items were in fact deactivated, and that he "probably" would have let me take them and proceed, but he found two magazines, (AK 47 type 30 rounds, and AR 15 type 20 rounds) that were prohibited overcapacity magazines. Under the Firearms Act, I possess a Dealer's License that specifies I can possess prohibited devices. Indeed the magazines are prohibited, but not illegal because they were in the custody of a person licensed to possess them! He then stated that he decided to seize the deactivated firearms for inspection as well. I advised him that the magazines arrived with the deactivated firearms and I had arranged their deactivation with Dealer #1 in Calgary, as I didn't have the tools to do this at home. I informed RCMP Officer #3 that he had admitted the deactivated arms were lawful for me to own and possess, and I demanded he hand over my property forthwith. He refused and said they, (RCMP Officer #3 and #4) were taking them for laboratory examination. I refused to allow them to do this unless they gave me a written reason for seizure and a receipt. They were reluctant to do this, but finally agreed. I went back to my vehicle and waited for approximately five minutes for RCMP Officer #3. He stood at the driver's side window, and my wife witnessed the entire conversation. I asked for a notice detailing the reasons for seizure of my property. He stated it was "not required" but offered me a receipt for the items, which I accepted. He then stated that he would send the deactivated firearms for examination at the RCMP Laboratory in Edmonton so they could determine the status of the arms. I advised him to send them for the attention of RCMP Officer #5. He asked why. I replied that I had many deactivated guns inspected at that laboratory. I advised him that the Bren gun should be checked for conformity to Memorandum D19-13-2, appendix 4 of the National Firearms Manual, "Guidelines for Deactivation," (which he did copy down.) He observed that there were only "guidelines" in place and there were no actual standards, which meant that deactivation was purely a matter of personal opinion. I advised him that the AK 47 and the AR-15 met the guidelines in force in 1969, and so should be inspected using those, or the records of inspection and importation checked with Canada Customs. RCMP Officer #3 told me that he and his partner were on their way to the gunshow in Calgary, and they had been diverted. I told him I didn't believe this and informed him that he and his partner violated Sect 337 cc, my Charter Rights and the provisions of the R.C.M.P. Act, and had illegally seized my property. He then told me that I was free to leave. Neither RCMP Officer #3 nor #4 appeared at the gun show. I know, I looked for them for two days. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:58:36 -0600 From: Rod LaHaise Subject: Looking for Rifle I am looking for a single shot rifle as a re-build project, caliber is irrelivant as long as it is a cartridge that can be reloaded. I would prefer something with a decent bore/chamber with all the parts required to make it work. Stock does not matter but enough wood to use as a guide when restocking would be a bonus. Finally in a perfect world this rifle would be rather inexpensive. I'm not looking for a collector piece just something I can rebuild and if all goes well it will be used for deer hunting next fall. Anyone with such a beast for sale or with any leads please reply via e-mail or phone anytime at (506) 757-8468 Thanks Rod Rod LaHaise Nerepis, NB NFA# 23198 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:07:13 -0600 From: John Hansen Subject: Police State Alan Rock. It looks like your wish is about to come true. We are now well under way to Police State Canada, with gun confiscation not too far away. Our lying corrupt PM and Government depends on our friendly neighbor and best trading partner to protect us from enemies. We do not have a well equipped Army to defend ourselves any more, but on the other hand we now have a huge well armed Police Force to protect our leaders against our own citizens.. John Hansen RR5 Calgary ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:54:18 -0600 From: Barry Snow Subject: [none] Subject Animal Alliance of Canada Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca I saw your post on the Digest. CGC is not a charity. However, DU IS. This is why DU will not take a stance on the gun control issues. (See the guidelines for charities on) http://www.ccra-adrc.gc.ca/tax/menu-e.html This would change them to political or advocacy as a charity may NOT have political purpose i.e.: campaign for change in law. I will file a complaint about the Calgary Humane Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals #118823632 RR0001, Canadian Federation of Humane Societies #118830884 RR0001 and also the Alberta Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals #122554488 RR0001 when I get the address for complaints. I will leave an e-mail at the ccra web site but it does not look like the correct address for a complaint. Animal Alliance of Canada say on their web site that they are NOT charitable as this prevents their political bent. keep up the good fight Barry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:07:48 -0600 From: Christopher di Armani Subject: Re: RCMP HARASSMENT >The following is a statement forwarded to me by the person involved. >This person wishes to remain anonymous, until the appropriate charges >have been laid. Please read this deposition carefully. You may be stopped at >any moment by the police, and everyone should have the knowledge to deal >with an illegal search and seizure. > >Bob Lickacz > >NFA Edmonton Thanks very much for forwarding this Bob. I'd heard the rumors for a while, but it's great to hear exactly what happened. We've been getting alot of questions from people about this today (Saturday) at the Coquitlam gun show. Will be nice to have the actual answers to pass on to people tomorrow. Christopher di Armani NFA Vancouver ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 13:44:23 -0600 From: jf_avon@freedom.net Subject: [humor] Death and taxes... A businessman on his deathbed called his friend and said, "Bill, I want you to promise me that when I die you will have my remains cremated." "And what," his friend asked, "do you want me to do with your ashes?" The businessman said, "Just put them in an envelope and mail them to Revenue Canada and write on the envelope, 'Now you have everything'. " ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 13:44:30 -0600 From: "Seas_Hrcs" Subject: [none] Last night, an American tourist had his shiny new <105mm Glock seized at one of the local border crossings. The man was the owner of the gun and a CCW permit holder. The gun was properly declared. Until just recently, Customs would take these declared guns and check them for the owner while he was in Canada. When he was done playing at the slot machines or vising friends, he would stop at Customs, pick up his gun, and bring it back to the US with him. Not anymore! This time, to his surprise, he was detained and his gun seized. On the upside, I don't think they made him pay the bridge's toll when they sent him back south. Sarcasm -> Thank goodness for Customs vigilance in protecting us from people like this, and thank C68 for giving them the authority to do so! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 18:56:22 -0600 From: "Ron McCutcheon" Subject: I am :Joe-Canada, > Moderator: I would like the Group's opinion on this type of posting- does it belong here? GPH NO!! Ron McCutcheon P. Eng ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 18:58:06 -0600 From: "Ron McCutcheon" Subject: Environment Voters target Harris M.P.P.s >Environment Voters, an anti hunting group based in Toronto, has >targeted the following pro hunting provincial Progressive Conservative M.P.P.s in >the upcoming 2003/2004 election. >One issue they will be focusing on is hunting. It is imperative that the hunting community rally around these >M.P.Ps. Remember what happened to the spring bear hunt! I remember only too well!! Harris killed it.!! He also promised that he would not support C-68 but the Ontario CFO is alive and well in Orillia. I'll continue to vote Conservative because there is really no viable option but the Ontario PC's will get NOTHING else out of me until the CFO office in Orillia is closed and the spring bear hunt is re-instated. Ron McCutcheon P. Eng ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 19:56:45 -0600 From: "Gordon Hitchen" Subject: Shall we fight? Today I received several personal emails , some from Members of this Digest, that set me to thinking. Where are we in our struggle against the Eastern Government and it's intention to confiscate our property and disarm our Nation? In my opinion we have not significantly altered their intentions. Oh yes , we have caused delays and extensions . We have even caused the Eastern Government to show its colours as a lying gang , ruling with a ruthless hand while only representing a small part of the territories they are governing. In Quebec this past week they used the same strategy against Citizens trying to express their opinions about globalization as they used against us. And it succeeded ! The Eastern Government simply built a fence ! Press and citizens concentrated their attentions on that fence while the Conference went on and we barely learned anything about what was signed etc. With C 68 they did not build a fence - they used words - public Safety! And we struggled trying to argue with that . And other statements such as "if it saves one life......" We did launch into a fine series of writing letters, mostly to the Press , I suspect. Very slowly they began to get published , catching the interest of many Editors as more and more were published. I think we managed to at least make the general population aware that all was not well with this C 68 and that it was so far over budget that it threatened Healthcare and Policing , amongst other things. The publicity from this letter writing campaign also made the Eastern Government realize we were not complying. They simply extended dates and poured more millions into advertising, attempting to make the Bill float or at best appear to float! I count that as one of our victories. A sign, at least , that we are having an effect! This brings me to the Question! What can we do next? What are we actually doing right now? The Eastern Government has stepped up the fight folks, waylaying our more prominent members , seizing their property illegally, harassing their families and interfering with their right to freedom of movement within this Nation. I believe that now is the time to use the funds accumulated by our various Organizations to bring the people involved in these atrocities before the Courts and the public. Lets use this to show our fellow citizens exactly what it is about the Eastern Government that we fear and that it is happening here , in Western Canada. This is a time to begin fighting in the Courts with the money we already have on hand - we can always work at raising more money as the fight progresses if need be - but lets get started immediately! My opinion of course, believing if we take this last assault on our rights laying down we may as well bury our firearms. We will become the next Doukabors if we lose! Gordon Hitchen Field Officer - NFA - Alberta Member of the Canadian Alliance Member of the Alberta Independence Party ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #733 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@home.com List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v03.n198 end (198 is the digest issue number and 03 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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