From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca on behalf of Cdn-Firearms Digest [owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca] Sent: Wednesday, 23 May, 2001 14:44 To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #787 Cdn-Firearms Digest Wednesday, May 23 2001 Volume 03 : Number 787 In this issue: GUN SHOT PHOTOS Can it really be? Wise words re Photos FeedbackInternet Pics Re: Convicted officer gets probation Re: put your money where your mouth is Re: put your money where your mouth is Re: Feedback FYI : Ad Hoc Gun Caucus Re: POWER -- AN NFA VIEW OF REALITY Re: Put your money where your mouth is..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:22:00 -0600 From: "Bob Lickacz" Subject: GUN SHOT PHOTOS Mike: I looked at the photos. I am in full agreement with them. There is nothing warm and fuzzy about a gun shot wound. I think these pictures should be incorporated into each and every firearms safety course. In my opinion, high school kids should also be given exposure to them. Then maybe, we would have a few less incidents of young punks packing heat because it's really cool. These pictures should also be circulated in battered women's shelters. If some of these women who have guns pointed at them by their husbands, boyfriends, whatever saw the kind of destruction a bullet can cause, maybe there could be more charges laid in some of these domestic disputes. These pictures just may be the incentive that some of these women need to leave an abusive situation. Mike, you have to understand that the truth is not always popular, or nice. It is nice to see someone with the courage of his convictions. Bob Lickacz. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:23:31 -0600 From: Lee Jasper Subject: Can it really be? Right on Jim: Re the Vancouver Mountie who 'mugged' a citizen. >An RCMP officer convicted of assault after holding >his gun to the head of a man he thought might be a pimp >as told Friday he can still carry for the >purpose of police work. Jim said: >The man should be fired , not allowed to retire, but >fired! He 'thought' the black dentist (Dr. Kary Taylor) driving a sport's car accompanied by an Asian woman 'had' to be a pimp. And while waiting for his case to be resolved he . . . > . . returned to Concordia University to complete a >degree and took a Vancouver school board course >called Tools for Change: Paradigm Shifting. I can't believe it . . . He was awarded a degree by Concordia . . . the birthplace of C-68. Where was Wendy and Heidi? And . . . . what? No course on race relations; cultural sensitivity, stereotyping, etc. And he took a Paradigm Shifting course. This chap needs HIS paradigm shifted. I'd pay him his $60 g's; put him back on the street - in full working uniform - MINUS the hogleg. He will learn about politeness and respect and the Charter of Rights - - very quickly. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:24:45 -0600 From: Lee Jasper Subject: Wise words >Pistol Whipped: Baseless Lawsuits, Foolish Laws >by Robert A. Levy Article stated: >Violence in America is due not to the availability of >guns but to social pathologies-illegitimacy, >dysfunctional schools, and drug and alcohol abuse. >Historically, more gun laws have gone hand in hand >with an explosion of violent crime. Only during the >past decade-with vigorous law enforcement, a booming >economy, and an older population-have we seen dramatic >reductions in violence, coupled with a record number >of guns in circulation. That IS powerful!!! And the ready solution . . . >Banning or regulating firearms will not eliminate the >underlying pathologies. And a less invasive remedy >already exists: enforce existing laws. Wasn't it Robert Blake on Berreta who used to say, "You can take that to the bank." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:14:09 -0600 From: "Drew Amelia" Subject: re Photos Yeah, it may be a bit much. Really kind of shocking and alomost too disturbing to look at. May not make the point you're trying to get across. Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Andrew Amelia aamelia@nextdimensioninc.com Next Dimension Inc. 3290 Jefferson Blvd., Unit 202 Windsor, Ontario, N8T 2W8 Tel : 519-945-2032 Fax : 519-945-2082 Next Dimension US Inc. 1700 West Big Beaver Road, Unit 300 Troy, Michigan, 48084-3533 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:14:24 -0600 From: "Rob Barfuss" Subject: FeedbackInternet Pics This is my first submission. I'm writing to let you know that I agree with Mike's first impressions. While I agree that the pictures have an educational component - I don't think they'll ever achieve that because of the negative "shock" they give. Somebody sitting on the fence will not be swayed our way with those pics, those who are already against us will find the ammunition they want there - and those who are with us will just be shocked, and then, after reading the explanation will be more relaxed about it. The up-side is extremely limited, the down-side is huge. Take it off-line. Rob Barfuss Lethbridge AB ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:14:16 -0600 From: Roger Walker Subject: Re: Convicted officer gets probation > PUBLICATION: Vancouver Sun > DATE: 2001.05.19 > EDITION: FINAL C > SECTION: News > PAGE: B1 / Front > BYLINE: Glenn Bohn > SOURCE: Vancouver Sun > ILLUSTRATION: Color Photo: Bill Keay, Vancouver Sun Files / Dentist Kary > Taylor was assaulted by an RCMP officer. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Convicted officer gets probation: RCMP constable also faces gun restrictions > for pointing weapon at a dentist's head > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just an interesting observation: Besides the fact that none of the minimum/mandatory charges/punishments were handed out, this fellow must give up his personal firearms (yet they were not involved in the crime) and can continue to use his service piece (which was involved in the crime)... - -- Roger Walker Voice/Fax 1-780-440-2685 "HIS Pain; YOUR Gain" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:17:23 -0600 From: "Paul Chicoine" <701506@ican.net> Subject: Re: put your money where your mouth is Mark L Horstead wrote , along with other things: >Rome was neither built nor destroyed in a day. Neither was/will be C-68. But >just as assuredly as one fell, so shall the other." true, perhaps. hopefully not, is the emperor playing the fiddle while Rome burns ? In the question of what legal actions the NFA has begun a fundamental error exists. The obvious answer is none. The question should be what legal actions has the NFA given any money to ? In what way have these particular cases come to merit this financial support, are they precedent setting ? How much money is in the Dealer's challenge fund on this day ? To this I expect no answer and rightfully so, but if its a hockeysoc full, what are you saving it for ? As far as those "somebodies" getting arrested, I expect LUFA is or will be loaded with them. The precedent set there benefits all of us so a few NFA bucks directed in some of those directions will be both cost effective and demonstrate economy of effort. The us and them in this scrap is not the NFA and say LUFA, it is the combined population of the greater RFC and the federal government. >DAT has pointed out before that NFA support attracts government attention, >which frequently causes government influence to be brought to bear on the >outcome of the trial. again, true, perhaps, but this should not be an excuse for inaction. __________ Paul Chicoine (DSS) 0x3B0DB246 *Illegitimi non Carborundum* Non Assumsit Contract, All Rights Reserved, Without Prejudice ________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:17:40 -0600 From: "Paul Chicoine" <701506@ican.net> Subject: Re: put your money where your mouth is Mark L Horstead wrote , along with other things: >Rome was neither built nor destroyed in a day. Neither was/will be C-68. But >just as assuredly as one fell, so shall the other." true, perhaps. hopefully not, is the emperor playing the fiddle while Rome burns ? In the question of what legal actions the NFA has begun a fundamental error exists. The obvious answer is none. The question should be what legal actions has the NFA given any money to ? In what way have these particular cases come to merit this financial support, are they precedent setting ? How much money is in the Dealer's challenge fund on this day ? To this I expect no answer and rightfully so, but if its a hockeysoc full, what are you saving it for ? As far as those "somebodies" getting arrested, I expect LUFA is or will be loaded with them. The precedent set there benefits all of us so a few NFA bucks directed in some of those directions will be both cost effective and demonstrate economy of effort. The us and them in this scrap is not the NFA and say LUFA, it is the combined population of the greater RFC and the federal government. >DAT has pointed out before that NFA support attracts government attention, >which frequently causes government influence to be brought to bear on the >outcome of the trial. again, true, perhaps, but this should not be an excuse for inaction. __________ Paul Chicoine (DSS) 0x3B0DB246 *Illegitimi non Carborundum* Non Assumsit Contract, All Rights Reserved, Without Prejudice ________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:31:45 -0600 From: Boris Gimbarzevsky Subject: Re: Feedback I had a look at the photos and I think they make the point about gun safey rather well. I've been in medicine for too long for them to arouse any significant personal emotional reaction but I'm sure that they would have a much greater effect on people who haven't done a few rotations in emergency medicine. That is precisely the effect that you want to have on people since it will either: (1) make them a lot more carefull where they point the gun they're handling (2) get them to not become involved in a sport where they have to face up to the responsibilities to are part of deciding to own firearms. When I was about 8 years old, one memory that sticks in my mind was a water filled can of paint exploding in response to a round from a .22 hornet. I think my uncle staged this demonstration to instill respect for the power of firearms before I had a chance to develop any bad habits. This lesson was reinforced when I saw the effects of bullets on small and large game when I was allowed to use firearms more. Many people who haven't grown up in the country with a history of hunting from an early age don't have the same visceral appreciation of the power and potential lethality of firearms they are dealing with, especially if all they are doing is putting holes in paper with them. What I'd like to see is an equivalent set of photos dealing with very messy automotive deaths to be required viewing by any person who was thinking of getting their drivers licenses as this would have a similar type of positive effect in making people think twice before they do something stupid. Boris Gimbarzevsky ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:34:25 -0600 From: "Paul Chicoine" <701506@ican.net> Subject: FYI : Ad Hoc Gun Caucus Five years after Bill C-68 was passed into law, the Liberals have organised an "Ad Hoc Gun Caucus". They have held two meetings with Maryantonett Flumian, CEO of the Canadian Firearms Centre, the first on Feb 22nd and the second on Feb 26th. The first meeting was organised by the office of John Maloney, MP for Erie-Lincoln (Ontario). The invitation to the first meeting was sent to: Raymond Bonin, MP for Nickel Belt (Ontario) Murray Calder, MP for Dufferin--Peel--Wellington--Grey (Ontario) Thelma Chalifoux, Senator for Alberta Ione Christensen, Senator for Yukon Wayne Easter, MP for Malpeque (PEI) John Harvard, MP for Charleswood St. James--Assiniboia (Manitoba) Charles Hubbard, MP for Miramichi (New Brunswick) Joe Jordan, MP for Leeds--Grenville (Ontario) Nancy Karetak-Lindell, MP for Nunavut Larry McCormick, MP for Hastings--Frontenac--Lennox and Addington (Ontario) Andy Mitchell, MP for Parry Sound--Muskoka (Ontario) John O'Reilly, MP for Haliburton--Victoria--Brock (Ontario) Bob Speller, MP for Haldimand--Norfolk--Brant (Ontario) Susan Whelan, MP for Essex (Ontario) Maloney.J@parl.gc.ca, Bonin.R@parl.gc.ca, Calder.M@parl.gc.ca, chalit@sen.parl.gc.ca Easter.W@parl.gc.ca,Harvard.J@parl.gc.ca, Hubbard.C@parl.gc.ca, Jordan.J@parl.gc.ca, Karetak-Lindell.N@parl.gc.ca, McCormick.L@parl.gc.ca, Mitchell.A@parl.gc.ca, OReilly.J@parl.gc.ca, Speller.B@parl.gc.ca, Whelan.S@parl.gc.ca, sorry, no email for Christensen. __________ Paul Chicoine (DSS) 0x3B0DB246 *Illegitimi non Carborundum* Non Assumsit Contract, All Rights Reserved, Without Prejudice ________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:43:40 -0600 From: Dave Tomlinson Subject: Re: POWER -- AN NFA VIEW OF REALITY THE MESSAGE BELOW IS AN OLD MESSAGE THAT I SENT OUT A LONG TIME AGO, BUT DID NOT SEND OUT AGAIN AT THIS TIME. I DON'T KNOW WHO SENT IT -- BUT IT WASN'T ME. I AM NO LONGER THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT, JIM HINTER IS, AND THAT MAKES ME HAPPY. David A Tomlinson, NFA Legal - ---------------------------------------------- David A Tomlinson wrote: > > POWER is the ability to change the course of history -- by some large or small amount -- by applying FORCE, MONEY or KNOWLEDGE to control or influence the actions of others. > > Governments primarily use FORCE as their tool. Individuals, organizations and other national governments are coerced into doing what the government wants, or not doing what the government forbids, by the use or threat of FORCE -- from all-out military attack on another nation to the threat of imprisoning the owner of a firearm. > > Some claim that "FORCE never changes anything." I suggest that you ask the Carthaginians if they agree; the Romans invaded, leveled their capital city, and sowed the land with salt to make sure nothing would ever grow there again. Or you might ask Napoleon or Adolf Hitler -- did FORCE have anything to do with changing the course of their history? > > FORCE has two limitations. It is a negative power, and therefore can backlash -- cause anger, cut support for those using it, and incite rebellion. It can only be used by those who can prove their ability to use FORCE -- easy for a government, harder (and usually illegal) for anyone else. > > The NFA does not have the capability of using FORCE, but it can and does draw attention to the fact that the government's inept handling of the firearms control issue may well result in the use of FORCE against the government if the voter anger and lost support resulting from Liberal and Conservative attacks on the firearms community -- plus other problems, such as aboriginal land claims, tax revolts, social engineering, etc. -- boil over into active rebellion. > > It is much easier to irritate people enough to make them start a rebellion than it is to stop a rebellion once it has started. Those who read history -- and learn from it -- know that. > > Governments also use MONEY. A government takes part of your MONEY through taxation (collected by threatening to use FORCE if you do not pay), then uses the MONEY to provide goods and services that you want -- thereby "earning" your gratitude and support. > > Note that MONEY is a more flexible tool than FORCE, because FORCE can only operate by threats or actual application -- both of which are negative. MONEY can be used for positive purposes, and can therefore move people to support the government -- even though the MONEY being used to provide the positive benefits was originally the property of the persons "on whose behalf" it is being spent. > > MONEY has the limitation that it can only be used by those who have it, or have a means to get or control supplies of it. > > The NFA has MONEY, and uses it -- in miserly fashion, because the NFA does not have all that much money -- to achieve the goals of the firearms community. MONEY is a very flexible tool, but it is very easy to use large amounts of MONEY without changing the course of history at all. The NFA uses MONEY very carefully, always considering whether or not a particular payment can or will change the course of history in favor of the firearms community -- our primary purpose. Alternatively, will spending generate more MONEY than is being spent? MONEY to use in furthering our primary purpose: changing the course of history in ways favorable to the firearms community? > > When donating MONEY to a person or organization that you hope will alter the course of history in ways you want it to go, it is wise to consider whether your MONEY is likely be spent wisely -- or simply wasted by those who will fail to make effective and practical use of it. > > KNOWLEDGE is more flexible than MONEY. It can be used negatively, to prevent an opponent from doing what he wants to do -- say, by beating his ideas in a court of law. It can be used positively, to persuade the opponent to change his views by proving that the basis of those views is false information, supplied by some lobbyist angling for defective changes. > > KNOWLEDGE can be used to gather a body of supporters -- who will then supply MONEY to increase the POWER of the individual or organization that they support. > > The NFA has a lot of KNOWLEDGE, and a network that constantly brings in more. It routinely beats the government in courts of law, by proving that the law does not mean what the government's employees want it to mean, that the laws are themselves illegal (that they violate the Constitution or Charter), or that the law is being interpreted and/or enforced improperly. > > The NFA's ability to prove the government's ideas wrong and foolish rests upon the KNOWLEDGE that it started with, plus KNOWLEDGE gained over 14 years of existence. Some people think that KNOWLEDGE rests in a single person, but that is wrong. The NFA is a network of people, a network with very free-flowing information channels. KNOWLEDGE flows freely into, out of, and through the NFA. > > NFA HQ works very hard to keep KNOWLEDGE flowing, because every scrap of KNOWLEDGE has a use -- somewhere, sometime. It is the NFA's job to gather KNOWLEDGE, and to distribute it freely to any point where it may be useful for the good of the firearms community. > > If one studies our federal government, it quickly becomes obvious that it has relied on FORCE for far too long. The Department of Justice is particularly at fault in this area, probably because it has relied on the threat of imprisonment to "control" behavior for such a long, long time. > > That threat of using FORCE is no longer a credible threat -- police budget cutbacks, police staffing cutbacks, prison overcrowding and early release, court overloading -- so willingness to ignore the threat of FORCE is increasing. Also, improvements in KNOWLEDGE levels proves that the Department of Justice is incompetent when writing laws. > > Prosecutors are ignorant of the latest developments in law interpretation, and our federal government is too arrogant to recognize a problem even when one is emitting a foul stench right under its nose. Those developments -- and many other proofs of government arrogance, ignorance and incompetence -- have reduced the perceived stature of our federal government. People do not obey arrogant fools, because they realize that those who obey or follow a fool will usually end up neck-deep in the swamp. > > The federal government's credibility is at an all-time low. People no longer believe that our government HAS solutions for the problems of the voters -- or for the problems of the nation. > > Elections are no longer decided by belief that a particular political Party or Leader is less arrogant, ignorant and incompetent than another. They are primarily decided by anger against the arrogance, ignorance and incompetence of the Leader or Party forming the current government, and the desire to vote that government out of office. > > David A. Tomlinson, National President, NFA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:43:47 -0600 From: Jim Powlesland Subject: Re: Put your money where your mouth is..... On Wed, 23 May 2001, "Mark L Horstead" wrote: > Well, "initiating" a case (other than one of those very expensive > constitutional challenges) usually involves somebody being arrested > and charged. Which was my point. The NFA rarely "initates" cases. As you point out, constitutional challenges don't need anyone to be charged. You just have to make the case that citizens' rights are being violated by the feds. And there are several grounds for that in C-68. However, the NFA has demonstrated no leadership in that department. > Providing funding for a gang of lawyers to argue a constitutional > challenge can be done with tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars > - or more. Which could be raised by donations and DU-like fundraisers across Canada. It just needed a national group to advertise and co-ordinate the effort. Hunters are used to giving generously to causes that effect them directly. However, this should have been started years ago. Six years after C-68 became law and only several months to the registration deadline, is a poor time to start. > A good deal of deciding where to apply our limited means, therefore, > depends on simple economics. And then, besides that issue of cost, > there's also the related issue of cost-EFFECTIVENESS. Which pretty much destroys the myth of the Canada's so-called "powerful" gun lobby. > What gives the best benefit for the funds and effort expended? > Attempting to influence (sometimes successfully, sometimes not) the > outcome of dozens, if not hundreds, of trials whereby precedents are > set that gradually, piece-by-piece, tear this law apart, or a huge > one-shot show trial that might or might not destroy a part of the > law? I challenge you to name two NFA "initiated" cases that have had any lasting influence on the Firearms Act. > DAT has pointed out before that NFA support attracts government > attention, which frequently causes government influence to be > brought to bear on the outcome of the trial. DAT has always had a vastly overinflated opinion of the NFA and their influence. I recall DAT also saying that the NFA "allowed" the feds to bring C-68 because they knew the feds weren't ready to adminster it. If the NFA had that much power, I thought at the time, why put us through the misery of C-68 in the first place? > Patience and perseverance. A small victory every now and then would be nice. However, we haven't had anything to cheer about since 1995. You can only tell folks 'don't worry, the Titanic is really taking on water' and 'hold on, we really are winning' for so long. After a several years, the sheep just don't buy it any more. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #787 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@home.com List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v03.n198 end (198 is the digest issue number and 03 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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