From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca on behalf of Cdn-Firearms Digest [owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca] Sent: Thursday, 24 May, 2001 09:50 To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #788 Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, May 24 2001 Volume 03 : Number 788 In this issue: Feedback > The SMSA website got some negative feedback today. [none] Photo's Re: Your Letter Re; NFA view of reality photos re: Media release COPS FEAR VIOLENT SUMMER AHEAD Probation for weapons charge Liberals to hold omnibus crime bill until fall ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:43:55 -0600 From: Rick Lowe Subject: Feedback Michael Ackermann said: > The SMSA website got some negative feedback today. I'd appreciate some > views from a wider audience before making a definative response. I understand what you are getting at, and I've seen similar and worse in my work so my opinion is not based on never having seen something like this before. In my opinion, these are appropriate within the classroom - just as photos of traffic fatalities are appropriate within driver training classrooms. However, I don't think they are appropriate at a website that promotes firearms ownership and activities to the general browsing public. If you want them somewhere on the web where they can be accessed but that access is controlled, you can put your images on an unlinked page so that people must know the full URL to browse to those pages. That way people can't just browse there way in there while looking around. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:50:50 -0600 From: "William R. Sherman" Subject: > The SMSA website got some negative feedback today. Mike I know your intentions are good, but......these are really not the sort of thing that promotes firearm ownership at all. I agree with the others.....remove them from the site. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:03:55 -0600 From: "Gordon Hitchen" Subject: [none] The following was sent to Pierre Bourque. It contains commentary on the Canadian Alliance situation and on the ridiculous idea that Rick Anderson is the reason why Stockwell Day is no longer the de facto leader of the Canadian Alliance. > You are perhaps uninterested in hearing more from me, but I am compelled > to comment on the continuing saga of the Canadian Alliance. I suggested > previously that, "In the absence of leadership by Day, White et al > taking over is more like a coup." Other than that "Reynolds et al" would > have been better, the situation appears to be well described as "a > coup". According to a May 19 article in the National Post "Mr. Day has > handed over authority for hiring staff and handling his office's daily > operations to John Reynolds, the party's House leader, and [others]." A > senior party official was quoted as saying, "They have put the leader > under a bushel, [...]" > > The argument for the legitimacy of this is that Reynolds has received > his power from Day, who was elected by the grassroots. It is a pretty > weak argument, but it is not hard to see how the arrangement works to > the benefit of Day and Reynolds. Day gets to keep his substantial perks > as Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition. Reynolds becomes effective > leader of the party. > > It is much harder to see how this arrangement is to the advantage of the > Canadian Alliance, or how it is in the spirit of the movement. We are > not talking about a state here, where Day's leadership embodies the > state and need be no more than figurative. Day was elected as LEADER, > which means that his job is to LEAD, not to protect his status and > remunerations by hiding and authorizing someone else to lead in his > place. He has effectively abdicated his leadership. Hence his > appointment of Reynolds is not really legitimate at all. The only proper > course for a LEADER who will not or can not lead is to resign. > > A very illogical argument has been advanced by Reynolds et al that the > present situation must be supported because to do otherwise would > disrespect the grassroots who elected Day for a term not scheduled for > review until 2002. Well the grassroots elected Day to lead, not act as a > figurehead. The grassroots has not gotten from Day what it elected him > to do. Day's leadership has failed, and it is irretrievable. The > grassroots did not elect Reynolds or anyone else to lead the party. > > But let us look at this idea that the MPs are constitutionally required > to support Day's "leadership" because his scheduled review isn't until > next year. Anyone who thinks that this is logical hasn't got his bricks > overlapping right. The constitutional requirement is an onus upon Day > not an onus upon the members of the party. If he has survived until the > date of the mandated review, he must submit to the review. Nothing in > the constitution requires undying loyalty from the members. Certainly > not the section requiring the leader to undergo a review. > > It is very sad for me that this perverted logic, that the requirement > upon Day to survive a leadership review next year is a requirement upon > the members to support him until then, is the only argument advanced in > support of Day's continuing nominal leadership. It illustrates absence > of any real confidence in Day, even from his supporters. The worst thing > about this argument is that not only does it go against classical > democratic accountability within parliamentary parties, it also denies > the very spirit of the movement that has become the Canadian Alliance. > > We are the party that champions parliamentary recall. Now, we are told > by the illegitimate, de facto leadership of the party, that recall > applies to everyone apparently but the leader of Her Majesty's Loyal > Opposition. It is alright for Alliance MPs to attempt to get the > resignation of the Prime Minister, whose mandate is required by our > constitution to be renewed after five years. This is no disrespect to > the Canadian voters, but it is a disrespect of the Alliance grassroots > not to support the party leader until his constitutionally required > review. Absurd! > > Peter Worthington writes in his column that by attacking its leader, the > Alliance has shown itself to be unfit to govern. Well, Mr. Worthington, > then I guess the parliamentary party that ganged up on the Chamberlain > government one year into the Second World War demonstrated that it was > not fit to produce a government. That it produced the government of > Winston Churchill, which went on to win that war says that your logic is > missing something. The leader, more than any other factor, determines > whether a party is fit to govern. You are right that the Canadian > Alliance is not currently fit to govern. The problem is not the members > or the MPs who do not have confidence in their nominal leader. The > problem is with the leader. You know ... as in "the buck stops here". > > Just after the Japanese attacked the Americans and the British in the > Asian - Pacific theater, Churchill decided that the rumblings of > discontent in the British Parliament had grown loud enough that he gave > a speech in which he claimed that everything that had gone wrong so far > was his responsibility. Then he asked for a vote of confidence and > received an overwhelming endorsement. > > By contrast, Stockwell claims responsibility for nothing, and Reynolds > et al tell us that it is unconstitutional to breathe a word that does > not support Day until then. How like a dictatorship! It is a blatant > attempt to see whether the seals will be trained. This in the party that > believes in the principle of recall, and that believes an MP's loyalty > is to his constituents. > > We are told of a document that all MPs were required to sign pledging > their loyalty to the leader (before their nomination papers were signed, > of course). In the light of the principle that an MP's first loyalty is > to his constituents, the requirement of such a pledge is an abomination. > One can be loyal to one master only. The fact that the de facto > leadership has resorted to producing this abomination is another > illustration that Day has lost the confidence of the MPs he is supposed > to lead. The fact that it continues to be suggested that MPs who > publicly call for the resignation of Stockwell Day could be expelled > suggests that Day does not have the confidence of the Alliance MPs. A > leader whose support has to be drummed up by threat of expulsion is not > a leader. > > It has also been advanced by the Stockaholics and those who benefit from > supporting Day, that Rick Anderson should be expelled from the party. No > one should be expelled from the party. Not one single person. The idea > that Stock's problems are the result of a conspiracy cooked up Rick > Anderson (the evil genius) is lunacy. If it is a conspiracy that is the > problem, why is Stock hiding? The idea that Rick has skillfully > manipulated the strings of the eight dissident MPs and caused them to > denounce the nominal leader is just another ridiculous piece of garbage > designed to appeal to the weakest minds in the party. That he approached > some of the people with whom he has influence with the aim of pressuring > Stock to resign is probably true. Re the above conversation, this is > perfectly legitimate. A lot of members of the party have been doing the > same thing. They have been doing it because the nominal leadership has > proven to be abysmally bad. > > Rick is an especially apt choice for the Day faction as a scapegoat. He > was disliked by some MPs because he had far more influence with Manning > than they did. The reason for this is that Anderson is a smart cookie - > a lot smarter than the kind of MP who thinks, for example, that a > requirement upon the leader to undergo a review at a set time is a > requirement upon the membership to support the leader until that time. I > mean look, some of our MPs aren't exactly rocket scientists (this is > true of every party - the Liberal MPs, for example, have managed to > become best known as a trained seal act). Anyway, because Rick is smart > and Preston was smart enough to listen to smart people, the dummies in > the party, in a fit of insane jealousy, decided that Rick was likely the > source of all the problems (somehow Rick got the PM to call Joe Clark > the Leader of the Opposition). Rick has therefore been given the honor > of being the only non MP in the party who could be expelled as method of > fixing Stock's inability to lead. Well, as far as I am concerned, if the > party decides to expel Anderson, it had better expel me too (Membership > #10270304) as I have been using what little influence I have to increase > the pressure on Stock, and I fully support Rick in this. > > Finally, Paul Wells wrote a National Post column a few days ago in which > he accused those who want a Day resignation to have some kind of > psychological shortcoming in which we need instant gratification. We > just don't have sensible patience, is his theme. Well, columnists like > Wells and Worthington can have all the patience in the world when it > comes to getting an idea on paper. Today they can write the easy puff > piece and save the tough column for a better day - maybe never. They > will still keep their jobs. But politics is like war. The Alliance is > like a battleship without steering in a sea full of enemy submarines. > The longer we are in this state, the more likely it is that we will take > a fatal torpedo. Right, now, the PC party is taking advantage of our > apparent disintegration and holding fundraisers as the party to unite > the right. One of our big advantages over the PC party is their debt > problem. Insofar as they can eliminate that problem as a result of an > extended period of Alliance incompetence, we will have permanently lost > that great advantage. This is just a single example of the permanent > damage to our cause from unnecessary delay. > > The Alliance has to fix its leadership problems as fast as it is > possible. Every Day that Stockwell Day blocks this process is a day of > danger for the Canadian Alliance. For the good of the party, I call upon > him to resign today. > > Tom Cohoe, > The Pas, MB. > R9A-1S4. > tel. 204-623-2750. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:05:10 -0600 From: russelles@connect.ab.ca Subject: Photo's Take those photo's off line. I am sure that they have already been copied and placed into "you know who's" big bag of distortions and lies. Although the photos display the truth, the RFC is against people who distort, lie, and twist objective reality to meet their ends. Unfortunately, the RFC has yet to realize how powerful these methods of perception versus reality really are. We live in country where perception rules and objective facts are something learned, and increasing less, when you go to university, or when you get an ass kicking in the real world. We must start adopting the atitude about how sweet and harmless the RFC is. We must be the Victims of the government. We must be seen as harmless individuals who place flowers in the barrels of our guns. As I said perception is more important than truth. You can flare me all you want, but what I am stating is the truth. Peace and Love you guys. Heck, with this atitude you may get laid by a soccer mom. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:05:16 -0600 From: mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca (Michael Ackermann) Subject: Re: Your Letter Thanks everyone for all the feedback. After hearing from about 20 of you and discussing with the SMSA executive, we have decided that the pictures will be removed. Please feel free to visit the site any time and view our replacement page www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mikeack/Safety.htm - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) President, St. Mary's Shooters Association Box 3, RR 1, Sherbrooke, NS Canada B0J 3C0 902-522-2172 mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca Hope for the best, Plan for the worst ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:05:24 -0600 From: "Rob Johnson" Subject: Re; NFA view of reality Subject: Re: POWER -- AN NFA VIEW OF REALITY THE MESSAGE BELOW IS AN OLD MESSAGE THAT I SENT OUT A LONG TIME AGO, BUT DID NOT SEND OUT AGAIN AT THIS TIME. I DON'T KNOW WHO SENT IT -- BUT IT WASN'T ME. I AM NO LONGER THE NATIONAL PRESIDENT, JIM HINTER IS, AND THAT MAKES ME HAPPY. David A Tomlinson, NFA Legal ***** 1. I must be sifting through the digest really fast because I didn't see the post that you just posted that you said you didn't post. 2. Why are you yelling ? 3. We know you are no longer President of the NFA, 4. We also know you are happy that Jim Hinter is the current President of the NFA because you basically groomed him for the position. You mentioned something about an ability to sell memberships. 5. Every so often a blowout develops about the NFA and the frequency of these blowouts seems to be increasing. It might have something to do with a total lack of leadership,activism, activity, life signs and the list goes on and on. 6. Speeches are nice but actions speak louder than words. RJ _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:05:31 -0600 From: "Ross" Subject: photos The photos are old ones, found mainly on www.rotten.com. These are of older polcie files from the 1970's with a few newre ones for good measure. Most are suicides. By definition, suicide is the greatest form of self criticism... it is also a permanent solution to temporary problems. Thisnk of the money the Federal Liberals have pissed down the drain, then look at the photos again. HAd any of the hundreds of miilions spent on C-68 been directed to resources which could have reached these people, there would no doubt ne fewer pictures. The photos are an excellent tool to show what happens when federal Liberals spend money on useless firearms registry and not on in areas which will prevent suicides such as providing counselling, more doctors, and resources etc etc. This can be turned to our advantage. We dont see picture of women dead from Breast cancer, but these photos have a good sahock value, and can certainly attest to the lack of resources the government has to help people who are thinking of suicide. Just my two cents worth ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:05:45 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: re: Media release > Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:38:08 -0600 > From: "William R. Sherman" > Subject: Media release > This is a media release dated May 8 1997!! My apologies! The date didn't even register. It never occurred to me that a website like a Police Force would keep such outdated material around for so long. I guess things must be really slow in Halton these days... Bruce Hamilton, Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:49:33 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: COPS FEAR VIOLENT SUMMER AHEAD PUBLICATION: The Edmonton Sun DATE: 2001.05.24 SECTION: News PAGE: 17 KEYWORDS: Weapon; Crime; Youth; Arrest; Edmonton ILLUSTRATION: Photo by Brendon Dlouhy, Edmonton Sun FAKE , REAL TROUBLE Const. Scott Rattray holds a replica Glock handgun next to the real thing after the replica was found in the schoolyard of St. Gerard elementary, 12415 85 St. last night following reports of youths with a . Several youths face charges. HEADLINE: COPS FEAR VIOLENT SUMMER AHEAD Two calls and a stabbing on one of the warmest nights of the year have cops bracing for a long hot summer. "We had a lot of weapons calls so I hope these warm days don't start to bring out all the armed thugs," cop spokesman Wes Bellmore said yesterday. Police are hunting for at least three culprits after gunfire tore through the side of a condo near 139 Avenue and 23 Street about 7 p.m. Tuesday. "The confrontation between two groups of men turned nasty when one of them pulled out a handgun and fired three shots at the other group," said Bellmore. Witnesses reported three black men were firing at three other black men and a Caucasian man. Cops later found three spent shell casings from a .45-calibre and a bullet lodged in the home about a block down the street. No one was injured. Police don't yet know if the violence has gang or drug connections. Officers were trying yesterday to track down a blond female driver of a black Honda CRV seen speeding away from the scene with three black men. Bellmore said the mayhem continued at 10:30 p.m. when a man arguing with an acquaintance at a home near 96 Street and 105A Avenue allegedly pulled a handgun and aimed it at two residents. Police seized a weapon after nabbing a suspect near 97 Street and 105 Avenue minutes later. Jade Clayton Armstrong, 24, of no fixed address, has been charged with pointing a firearm, possession of a weapon, possession of a prohibited weapon, possession of stolen property, and possession of a weapon contrary to a court order. Police then responded about 1 a.m. yesterday to a parking lot near 105 Street and Kingsway after a man was stabbed outside a nearby pub, said Bellmore. The victim was parked outside the pub with a friend when a man he later identified only as "Pit Bull" got into the back seat of the car demanding drugs, cash and jewelry. "That's always bad news, when a guy named Pit Bull gets into your car uninvited," said Bellmore. A female standing outside the car kicked the door shut when the male passenger tried to escape. The culprit in the back seat then stabbed the driver in the right forearm before fleeing the vehicle with about $100 cash and a cellphone. The suspect is described as about 31 years old, six-foot-two and 230 pounds. He has dark hair, a moustache, tattoos on his chest and he was wearing a black leather jacket. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:49:39 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Probation for weapons charge PUBLICATION: Edmonton Journal DATE: 2001.05.24 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: City PAGE: B2 BYLINE: Gordon Kent, Legal Affairs Writer SOURCE: The Edmonton Journal DATELINE: Edmonton - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Probation for weapons charge - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- A passenger in a car carrying three handguns in the trunk was fined $1,725 Wednesday and placed on 18 months' probation. Michael Greatrix, 23, was arrested Aug. 26 after someone complained to the Fort Saskatchewan RCMP about shots being fired at a bush party near the Dow Chemical plant, said Crown prosecutor Ashley Finlayson. Police at the scene examined the car Greatrix was riding in and found the handguns, at least one of them loaded. Greatrix, on bail at the time, handled one of the guns. He pleaded guilty to being an occupant of a motor vehicle in which he knew there were restricted weapons for which no one had a permit. His sentence was jointly recommended by Finlayson and defence lawyer Debbie Hatch. The car driver was sentenced earlier this month to 30 days in jail. Court of Queen's Bench Justice Ernest Marshall said Canadians are only allowed to have such in exceptional circumstances. ``In our society, which isn't very accustomed to seeing loaded handguns in general circulation, it's certainly troublesome that there were these three weapons in this vehicle.'' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:49:46 -0600 From: Subject: Liberals to hold omnibus crime bill until fall PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 2001.05.24 EDITION: FINAL SECTION: News PAGE: A3 BYLINE: Tim Naumetz SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Political tiff stalls bill on child porn: Liberals to hold omnibus crime bill until fall after Alliance threatens filibuster over contentious sections - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- A game of political brinkmanship between the Canadian Alliance and the government has stalled widely hailed Criminal Code amendments to combat child pornography and sexual stalking on the Internet. Government House leader Don Boudria confirmed yesterday he has put an omnibus bill containing the changes on hold because the Alliance has threatened to delay the legislation and other bills because of contentious elements unrelated to the child porn sections. Meanwhile, Conservative House leader Peter MacKay, whose party also opposes aspects of the omnibus bill, accuses the Liberals and the Alliance of reaching a backroom deal to put off the legislation so the Commons can adjourn early for a three-month summer break. If that occurs, the bill will not reach committee until mid-September at the earliest, even though Justice Minister Anne McLellan introduced it in the Commons in mid-March. Despite its laudable goals of child protection, the bill has been a source of controversy from the time it was introduced. Ms. McLellan was forced to apologize to a House procedural committee for failing to provide opposition MPs with copies of the bill before her department provided a detailed briefing on its contents to members of the parliamentary press gallery. The Commons committee formally censured Ms. McLellan for the tactic. The Conservative and Alliance parties find themselves unable to support the legislation in its entirety because the 78-page bill includes hotly debated changes to Criminal Code sections against animal cruelty and amendments to the Act, although Mr. MacKay suggested yesterday the Tories may support the entire bill to get the key sections on child pornography passed into law. The standoff between the Alliance and the Liberals reached a new level last week when Alliance MPs began filibustering other motions in the Commons to protest the omnibus bill. Alliance House leader John Reynolds says Mr. Boudria agreed after that incident to postpone the bill until the fall. ``He wanted some time, I guess, to talk to the minister (Ms. McLellan) about it,'' said Mr. Reynolds. ``It's not on the list of bills that has to be done before we leave in June.'' Mr. Reynolds accused Ms. McLellan of trying to trap Alliance MPs by putting them in the position of having to accept all or none of the bill. The party's justice critic, Manitoba MP Vic Toews, said Ms. McLellan gambled that opposition MPs would support the entire bill for fear of being seen voting against the child-protection measures. ``She thought that we wouldn't have the guts to stand up on these other substantive issues and that we would be too embarrassed to stand up on that, that's the gamble she took,'' said Mr. Toews. Mr. MacKay expressed surprise at the news Mr. Boudria had agreed to hold off the bill until September. ``This is completely news to me,'' he said, adding both the government and the Alliance, in turmoil over Stockwell Day's leadership, want to end the sitting before the June 22 recess date and slip into the obscurity of the vacation season. Rumours have been flying around the Hill that the Commons may recess as early as June 11 or 12. Mr. Boudria confirmed he does not plan to put the bill back on the Commons order paper unless the Alliance abandons its filibuster. Ms. McLellan's communications director said the minister doesn't intend to split the bill into separate pieces ``at this time.'' Sections of the bill making it illegal to brutally or viciously kill animals, carrying jail terms up to five years and no limits on fines, is being met with widespread opposition in the farm and cattle industries, Mr. Toews said. The bill would also establish a commissioner, answerable to the justice minister, with authority over all aspects of the government's controversial gun registry and licensing system. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V3 #788 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@home.com List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v03.n198 end (198 is the digest issue number and 03 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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