From: Cdn-Firearms Digest [owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca] Sent: Friday, 08 February, 2002 21:30 To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #531 Cdn-Firearms Digest Friday, February 8 2002 Volume 04 : Number 531 In this issue: Re: Firearms Registry Article Re: a firearm that requires registration Never Registered Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #528 Forum for our Cause FW: Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights NUMBER OF KNOWN BREACHES OF RCMP COMPUTERS: 156 My Letter to the Editors Fw: Give up? 'Arming America' Under Fire; Historian Will Undergo Inquiry Re: Letter: All talk, no action the apathy of the majority of gun owners Message to an ignorant lout. Re: Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights The obscene cost of Bill C-68 Special Constable Ed ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:44:49 -0600 From: Jim Powlesland Subject: Re: Firearms Registry Article On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 rc_ontarget@canada.com wrote: > http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0CGC/n22_v24/20771966/p1/article.jhtml > > I know it's a dated article (June 8/98), but it does provide some > information on the technical points of the system What I found most disturbing is "The heart of the system is an HPD 9000-class server using Oracle 7 with Pentium II workstations running on a Windows NT 4 platform." I can't imagine a more insecure OS than Windows NT. Hackers have probably been installing backdoor trojans on their CFC's PCs since 1998. > They even have a quote by Wendy Cukier. The biggest laugh is that they identify Wendy as a "professor of information systems at Ryerson". My guess is that Wendy barely knows where the IT dept is on campus let alone where the power switch is located on her office PC. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:08:19 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: a firearm that requires registration Edward Hudson wrote: > > Mr Moderator, > Re: a firearm that requires registration > Registration is not required until next January first. > And registration will not become effective then unless we > submit to registration. > I, for one, will never submit to registration. > Sincerely, > Eduardo > > Moderator: one problem would be deciding at what point in > > manufacture it becomes a firearm that requires registration. If you read this again carefully, Gordon is talking about manufacturing a new firearm. Only those already in your possession do not require to be registered until Dec 31, 2002. Since you do not already possess imported or newly manufactured firearms, they must be registered, just as you would have to register a firearm you buy from someone else. Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:10:03 -0600 From: Edward Hudson Subject: Never Registered Dear MJ, Re: other good alternative answers Try: Never Registered; Never will be. Sincerely, Eduardo MJ wrote: > > unverified > not sure > not indicated > I don't know > I'm not sure > not shown> any other good alternative answers? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:45:44 -0600 From: Tom Cohoe Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #528 MJ wrote: > unverified > not sure > not indicated > I don't know > I'm not sure > not shown > any other good alternative answers? How about "Huh?" Tom Cohoe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:45:45 -0600 From: Joe Gingrich Subject: Forum for our Cause We have a chance to demonstrate to Canadians how our federal government has wasted federal tax dollars on such things as the firearms act C-68 and its sibling laws at the expense of the national health care system. We can use the fed.web site ( www.healthcarecommission.ca) to help accompolish this very easily. We can also attend the health care commission hearings when they are held in our respective areas of Canada as this will provide us a forum. It should not be difficult to show the feds and the public how to keep funds in the bucket if we plug a few billion dollar holes such as the worthless firearms act ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:45:45 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: FW: Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights From: Vachon, Marie-Danielle=20 Sent: February 8, 2002 2:08 PM To: =20 Cc: Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: RE: Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights Thank you for sending the Committee a copy of your request to appear to speak to the following motion, proposed by the Canadian Alliance: " = That the Committee or Sub-Committee study and hear witnesses with respect to = the total cost and economic impact of the Firearms Act. "=20 =20 After debate, the Committee agreed to defer its decision on whether or = not it would undertake the study proposed in the motion until after the = Minister of Justice has appeared to answer questions on his department's = expenditures and estimates. =20 =20 Should you be interested in reading the transcription of the meeting, = it will be available on the parliamentary website at = www.parl.gc.ca - the debate took place during meeting number 60. =20 Should you have any questions about the Committee's procedures, I can = be reached by telephone at 613-996-1553 or by e-mail at just@parl.gc.ca. =20 On behalf of the Chair, Andy Scott, and of all members of the = Committee, I wish to thank you for your interest in the work of the Committee.=20 =20 =20 Marie Danielle Vachon Clerk / Greffier Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights Comit=E9 permanent de la justice et des droits de la personne 180, rue Wellington Street Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0A6 Tel: 613-996-1553 Fax: 613-992-9069 vachom@parl.gc.ca=20 Subject: RE: Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights Thank you for sending the Committee a copy of your request to appear to speak to the following motion, proposed by the Canadian Alliance: " That the Committee or Sub-Committee study and hear witnesses with respect to the total cost and economic impact of the Firearms Act. " After debate, the Committee agreed to defer its decision on whether or not it would undertake the study proposed in the motion until after the Minister of Justice has appeared to answer questions on his department’s expenditures and estimates. Should you be interested in reading the transcription of the meeting, it will be available on the parliamentary website at www.parl.gc.ca - the debate took place during meeting number 60. Should you have any questions about the Committee’s procedures, I can be reached by telephone at 613-996-1553 or by e-mail at just@parl.gc.ca. On behalf of the Chair, Andy Scott, and of all members of the Committee, I wish to thank you for your interest in the work of the Committee. Marie Danielle Vachon Clerk / Greffier Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights Comité permanent de la justice et des droits de la personne 180, rue Wellington Street Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0A6 Tel: 613-996-1553 Fax: 613-992-9069 vachom@parl.gc.ca - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1B0D9.CFAA4980-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:45:44 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: NUMBER OF KNOWN BREACHES OF RCMP COMPUTERS: 156 NUMBER OF KNOWN BREACHES OF RCMP COMPUTERS: 156 Documented as of: March 8, 2001 Click Here for more information:http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/LettertoPrivacyComm01.pdf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:45:45 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: My Letter to the Editors [Just submitted, not yet printed] [submitted to the Times-Colonist and the Star-Phoenix] - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Outsourcing not new idea Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:31:01 -0500 From: Bruce Mills To: Editor - Victoria Times-Colonist David Austin, spinmeister for the Canadian Firearms Centre, is at it again. "Outsourcing" isn't "privatization", it is "alternate service delivery" (if it walks like a duck). The Minister will be "fully accountable". How can the Minister be fully accountable, when the successful bidder could be from one of 144 WTO member nations, from Albania to Zimbabwe? How can he ensure that they won't sell off our private and personal information to any an all comers? How would he even know? A 17 year old in Texas hacked into the DND computers inside of 10 minutes; cops are warning that their CPIC information system is open to intrusion by janitors, or people walking by a window. As for "4,000" licences revoked", that means nothing if they don't subsequently seize any firearms from those individuals. However, the Canadian Firearms Center says they don't know how many, or even if any such guns have been seized. Meanwhile, legitimate business owners are being raided and harassed, while real criminals are let loose with "time served" or one day sentences for real firearms crimes (according to news articles in the past week alone). And we're supposed to feel safe? Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:06:00 -0600 From: "J. Hegglund" Subject: Fw: Give up? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Hegglund" To: Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 12:50 PM Subject: Give up? > Hi Jim, > That's a hell of an idea, but at 66 years of age and counting I ain't giving > up what may be one of my last forays into the wild north. > I have to think also that we may make the variously striped "antis" really > happy. Can't you just here them crowing "We won-We won"? > In theory our wildlife managers try to adjust the annual harvest with > consideration to the carrying capacity of the winter range, and political > interference aside, they are often pretty good at it. Stop the harvest of > big game for a year and in some areas we could provide a heap of feed for > Ravens and Black Bears, and devastate big-game herds in the event of a bad > winter. > Punishing Provincial Governments for the sins of Ottawa may also prove > counter-productive. After all, most of the Provinces are at least "sort of" > on our side. > Rob > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:06:00 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: 'Arming America' Under Fire; Historian Will Undergo Inquiry http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-000009908feb08.story 'Arming America' Under Fire; Historian Will Undergo Inquiry Literature: Accused of misleading statements, professor says his book is fundamentally sound. From Associated Press February 8 2002 NEW YORK -- A disputed, prize-winning book about the role of guns in the U.S. will undergo a formal inquiry from Emory University, where author Michael Bellesiles is a professor of history. In a statement released this week, Emory official Robert A. Paul said the Atlanta-based school has initiated a process for "addressing allegations of misconduct in research." "Both the history department and Michael Bellesiles have now requested that we initiate this process, and we have done so," said Paul, dean of Emory College, an undergraduate division of the university. "Professor Bellesiles says that he welcomes the review by his faculty colleagues and other scholars in this forum." Bellesiles, on a fellowship for the academic year, did not immediately return telephone calls seeking comment. Bellesiles spent 10 years working on "Arming America," published by Alfred A. Knopf in 2000. The book challenges the idea that the United States has always been a gun-oriented culture and that well-armed militias were essential to the Revolutionary War. Relying on numerous sources, Bellesiles wrote that only a small percentage of people possessed firearms in colonial times and that militias were mostly ineffective. Only after the Civil War, he contends, did guns become important to the culture. "Arming America" was praised by the New York Times and the New York Review of Books, and won the Bancroft Prize for history. Many cited it as a devastating statement against the country's alleged historical love affair with firearms. "The way we think about guns and violence in America will never be the same," wrote Michael Zuckerman, a professor of history at the University of Pennsylvania. "Michael Bellesiles is the NRA's worst nightmare." Gun advocates quickly attacked the book, with National Rifle Assn. president, actor Charlton Heston, complaining that Bellesiles had "too much time on his hands." But scholars and critics also became skeptical. Bellesiles has been accused of ideological bias, selective scholarship and misleading statements. He has acknowledged some errors, but defends his book as fundamentally sound. Jane Garrett, Bellesiles' editor at Knopf, said Thursday in a statement that some corrections already have been made in the paperback edition. She added that "other corrections will be made in subsequent printings with regard to the few additional factual errors that have been discovered." "We hasten to point out, however, that the majority of the matters that have been raised are matters of interpretation," Garrett said. In a highly anticipated forum appearing in the upcoming issue of the William & Mary Quarterly, four leading historians evaluate "Arming America," and Bellesiles provides a lengthy defense. Many in the academic community believe his reputation depends on how effectively he responds. The statement from Emory referred to the William & Mary article and said that "questions remain concerning his research." The participants in the William & Mary forum, which comes out next week, criticize "Arming America." Gloria L. Main, a history professor at the University of Colorado, says in the quarterly that Bellesiles greatly underestimates the level of gun ownership in colonial times. Randolph Roth, professor of history at Ohio State University, finds Bellesiles guilty of letting his theory guide his research, rather than the other way around. Bellesiles' response in the forum is aggressive yet cautious. He defends his scholarship, and worries about the public's belief in the power of militias. But he also emphasizes that his book offers no definitive proof and notes the uncertain nature of historical scholarship. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:06:00 -0600 From: Roger Walker Subject: Re: Letter: All talk, no action I am quite behind in my reading - very busy. And that's why I'm writing with this request... The noted letter to the editor obviously begged a response. However, no indication was given as to which media it came from. I don't have the time to respond at the best of times, let alone when I'd have to scour the Internet to find out whom to send the response to. Even better would be to provide the contact particulars for everyone to use. (Sorry that this sounds so negative - the information provided was great - but I'm feeling somewhat helpless to act on it...) - -- Roger Walker Voice/Fax 1-780-440-2685 "HIS Pain; YOUR Gain" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:06:01 -0600 From: Sorensens Subject: the apathy of the majority of gun owners "Jim Thacker" wrote: Subject: signing petitions A bit of bitching from a NFA member I was visiting the page that has the petition for repealing the gun law and noted that there were only 200 signatures. Good Grief, no wonder we don't win anything. Dennis Sorensen's response: Jim I agree with you about the apathy of the majority of gun owners. For the most they are a pathetic bunch of cheap bastards. Very few belong to the NFA or any other organization that is fighting for us. However petitions are normally ignored by the government, and really do nothing to forward a point, except to maybe make those signing the petition feel better as if they have done something. Just my thoughts, I hope I offended somebody! Moderator: If they complain- it will be because the shoe fits! No matter whose numbers of firearms owners you accept - way less than 10% are out front in this fight. If they all just gave us the price of a box of shells every year it would go a long way towards defeating Ottawa. Hell for two boxes of shells they could be proud members! I think I just stumbled on my next recruiting line! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:06:00 -0600 From: "A Engel" Subject: Message to an ignorant lout. I had to look back and read very carefully to see if I might have typed anything about 'censoring' anyone... Nope! All I talked about was how being professional in presentation seems to do better than namecalling and snide remarks. It's a pity Mr Kearns, who does such excellent work in the courts, doesn't have the good sense to hire a copy-writer who knows that snide remarks based on name-calling are not 'trifles' and undo most of the good done when he wins cases in the courts... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:05:59 -0600 From: Edward Hudson Subject: Re: Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights To: "Vachon, Marie-Danielle" Cc: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Dear Ms Vachon, Re: Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights Please keep our letter on file as a witness to appear before your committee should the committee decide at a later date to hold these hearing. Sincerely, Edward B. Hudson DVM, MS Director, LUFA "Vachon, Marie-Danielle" wrote: > > > Thank you for sending the Committee a copy of your request to appear to > speak to the following motion, proposed by the Canadian Alliance: > > That the Committee or Sub-Committee study and hear witnesses with respect to > the total cost and economic impact of the Firearms Act. > > > After debate, the Committee agreed to defer its decision on whether or not > it would undertake the study proposed in the motion until after the Minister > of Justice has appeared to answer questions on his department's expenditures > and estimates. > > Should you be interested in reading the transcription of the meeting, it > will be available on the parliamentary website at www.parl.gc.ca - the > debate took place during meeting number 60. > > Should you have any questions about the Committee's procedures, I can be > reached by telephone at 613-996-1553 or by e-mail at just@parl.gc.ca. > > On behalf of the Chair, Andy Scott, and of all members of the Committee, I > wish to thank you for your interest in the work of the Committee. > > Marie Danielle Vachon > Clerk / Greffier > Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights > Comité permanent de la justice et des droits de la personne > 180, rue Wellington Street > Ottawa, Ontario > K1A 0A6 > Tel: 613-996-1553 > Fax: 613-992-9069 > vachom@parl.gc.ca > > -----Original Message----- > From: Edward Hudson [mailto:edwardhudson@shaw.ca] > Sent: February 2, 2002 1:00 PM > To: breitg@parl.gc.ca; vachom@parl.gc.ca > Cc: Jim Turnbull > Subject: Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights > > 02Feb02 > > Mr. Garry Breitkreuz, MP > breitg@parl.gc.ca > > Dear Mr. Breitkreuz: > > Re: Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights > > I understand you are preparing a list of expert witnesses and > organizations that would like to appear before the Standing Committee on > Justice and Human Rights to give testimony on how the implementation of > the Firearms Act is affecting their jobs, their industry, their business > activities and their recreational pursuits and pastimes. > > Law-abiding Unregistered Firearms Association (LUFA) would appreciate > being on this list. We are certainly familiar with the Statutes of > Canada 1995, Chapter 39 and both the direct, and indirect, effect it is > having on our members. > > We are confident representatives from LUFA could provide valuable > insight as to the negative results of Bill C-68. > > Thank you for all your efforts to protect the freedoms of all Canadians. > > Sincerely, > > Jim Turnbull, Treasurer > > Edward B. Hudson DVM, MS, Past President > > Law-abiding Unregistered Firearms Association (LUFA) > > c.c. Marie Danielle Vachon, Clerk, Standing Committee on Justice and > Human Rights> vachom@parl.gc.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:29:30 -0600 From: "Karl Schrader" Subject: The obscene cost of Bill C-68 They have blown all that incredible amount of cash to pay paperpushers. Rock must have known at the time what his scheme will eventually cost that's why he blurted out " no compensation, period". Can anyone really fathom how this Government is running things?? To go from 85 million to 700 million and eventually to ONE BILLION or even higher?? It's just incredible what we are getting for our hard earned money !! Is there no mechanism in place to hold these idiots accountable or is all this already socially engineered in?? If Alfred Hovdestad is getting a reply from Couchon in about 8 months, he sure should let us know. There are 3 letters to McLellan outstanding and they ended up in the trashcan due to the clever manipulation of our esteemed PM. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:23:56 -0600 From: Alfred Hovdestad Subject: The cost of Bill C-68 Dear Mr. Cauchon: There are now less than eleven months left before the deadline for registration of all firearms in Canada. Recent documents show that the Canadian Firearms Centre (CFC) admits to spending $700 million to date with more costs hidden under the guise of Cabinet secrecy. On top of that, they are contracting out the registration process at an additional cost of $300 million (if they can find anyone to do it for that little)............ If the average cost of a firearm in Canada is $200, the CFC will soon have spent more on registration than the combined value of all the firearms in Canada. In other words, it would have been cheaper for Ottawa to buy all of the firearms in Canada than to register them. Moderator: Everyone should write their local papers with a version of this and the MP & MLA. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:29:34 -0600 From: "e.m. acount" Subject: Special Constable Ed Rick Lowe : >Convince me I'm wrong and you're right. That sounds fun. Then, I'll go and work with the lepers. >you appear to think that police, simply by being police, are the cause of >some problems with the Firearms Act. Appearances can be deceiving, and they have just talked you into buying some cheap Florida swampland. I do not accuse police officers of being the cause of the Firearms Act, or any problem within it. I accuse them of initiating agression against innocent persons regularly and with intent, in exchange for money and other consideration. As this is what I posted, and not what you claim above, I will ignore the bulk of your message and it's strawman arguments. >>They are wilful actors, not clumps of metal. >So are the "law abiding firearms owners" people when some of their number >decide to commit murders and other criminal acts with firearms. Obviously, and they should be punished. But, the police are not punished for their acts of aggression. I will pay $5 to the first person who can propose a practical way to change this. >So if you want to throw all police officers in the same bucket because of >the criminal/malicious acts of a few, No, of the whole. I suppose the police must have officers who do nothing but deliver intra-office mail, but they are such a small number that I don't bother putting a disclaimer on each message I write. >It reminds me of a trial I had a very minor part in once when a member of >NAMBLA said that... Go check out their website if you have a strong enough >stomach. I would take you up on that offer but I think that NAMBLA was forced to take down their (non-pornographic) website a few years ago by the Department of Happy Thoughts. I'm open to correction on this, though. >Oh I do worry - I understand the power of language and how it affects >peoples' perceptions all too well. So I get it just fine No, I don't think you do. Moderator: lets call this one a draw gentlemen. By the Way does NAMBLA mean Nova Scotia and Manitoba blame lone Alberta? ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #531 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@shaw.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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