From: Cdn-Firearms Digest [owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca] Sent: Saturday, 09 February, 2002 22:09 To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #533 Cdn-Firearms Digest Saturday, February 9 2002 Volume 04 : Number 533 In this issue: unknown etc? Pressure for new restrictions on Access to Information Act Hunters: let's take aim! Olympic Biathalon Re: the apathy of the majority of gun owners Fenced-hunting review 'flawed,' opponents say Langham case erodes faith in police Re: Slippery slope Re: Verifiers [Fwd: BILL MOSS] Letter to the Editor effective communivation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:40:18 -0600 From: "Glock22 .40 S & W" Subject: unknown etc? How about, "see FART DISC" >MJ wrote: > > > > unverified > > not sure > > not indicated > > I don't know > > I'm not sure > > not shown> any other good alternative answers? > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:40:19 -0600 From: Alasdair Roberts Subject: Pressure for new restrictions on Access to Information Act Another critical federal function is being transferred to a new organization that will be excluded from the Access to Information Act. Bill C-27 creates the Waste Management Organization to "carry out the managerial, financial and operational activities to implement the long-term management of nuclear fuel waste." The complete list of entities created by the Chretien government and excluded from the ATIA now includes: The Canadian Foundation for Innovation The Canadian Millennium Scholarship Foundation Genome Canada Canadian Blood Services Nav Canada The Greater Toronto Airport Authority and other major airport authorities The Canada Pension Plan Investment Board The Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences The St. Lawrence Seaway Management Corporation Canada Health Infoway Inc. Waste Management Organization This trend persists notwithstanding the government's promise to examine policy on the scope of the ATIA as part of a review of the law begun in August 2000. In the last two years, the Chretien government has attempted to check the ATIA in three ways: - -- by continuing to exclude new institutions; - -- by taking a more aggressive position about the application of the law to Minister's offices; and - -- by introducing new "conclusive certificate" rules that permit the Minister of Justice to block disclosure in the interest of national security. Meanwhile, a report on internal consultations released by the Task Force earlier this week describes pressures for further restrictions, such as tighter exemptions, higher fees, and restrictions on the authority of the Information Commissioner. The report observes: "Officials have become increasingly aware of the lack of any private space within which to work, generate and propose ideas and prepare draft material, leading to a question whether the Act may undermine transparency by discouraging officials from committing views to paper and from providing frank advice to the Minister for fear of being misinterpreted when documents are released. "Several departments and agencies have expressed the view that the Information Commissioner has been constantly pushing his interpretation of the Act further and further beyond what they believe was intended, making compliance a moving target. The growing adversarial approach of investigative journalism has lead to increasing resentment of the Act by the public service, and growing distrust of government by the public. . . . "Program areas express concern about the resource burden ATIP places on operational areas; the problems they face with the 30 day timeframe; the increase in the number of ATIP consultations from other departments; and the large requests which seem to have the objective of finding information for re-sale. There has also been an increase in requests for departmental internal audits. Companies are now routinely using access as a means of challenging the government's contracting procedures, and legal firms are using access as a parallel discovery process. E-mail, the Internet and other new technologies have had a major impact on the creation and management of government records and how files are retrieved and reviewed . . . "It was noted that the fees are an administrative burden to process and in no way reflect the actual cost of creating the release package for the requester. Several suggestions were made that fees should be based on the actual cost of processing a request, including the cost of reviewing the records, particularly for 'commercial' requesters. "It was noted that the application fee, search fees, reproduction and preparation fees, and computer programming fees, have not kept pace with inflation. The current application fee of $5 is the same as when the Act came into force in 1983, and it was suggested that this fee should be increased to discourage frivolous requests, to better reflect the administrative costs of opening a file, and to encourage the seeking of information through alternative means such as websites. "Fees are presently at levels below what it costs to collect them, which is a disincentive to collection. One recommendation is to increase the initial application fee to $25.00 and to reflect the actual costs involved in processing the request, including salary and the cost of making copies. Another option would be to set an additional fee for regular users (i.e. requesters who submit more than 10 requests a year)." The complete report can be viewed at http://www.atirtf-geai.gc.ca/consultation_general-e.html - -- Alasdair Roberts Director, Campbell Public Affairs Institute Maxwell School, Syracuse University 306 Eggers Hall Syracuse, New York USA 13244 Campus (315) 443-4120 Cell (315) 345-1216 Fax (253) 541-9867 E-Mail asrobert@maxwell.syr.edu Web http://www.campbellinstitute.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:52:18 -0600 From: "Ron McCutcheon" Subject: Hunters: let's take aim! "We should all just take a year off and not hunt" Sounds like "Cutting off our nose to spite our face". I doubt that any loss of revenue bother the Lieberals. The huge cost of registration doesn't give them any concernt. A year of no sales of hunting-related products would make it pretty tough on businesses who are our friends and are already having a tough time surviving. I intend to make use out of my firearms while I still have them. Ron McCutcheon P. Eng ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:52:20 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: Olympic Biathalon http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/020208/5/io64.html Bjoerndalen Sets His Sights on New Success By Judith Crosson February 08, 2002 SOLDIER HOLLOW, Utah (Reuters) - Guns are strictly off limits at the Winter Olympics for all bar two key groups -- security personnel and biathlon competitors. As the sport combines the skills of cross-country skiing with target shooting, it is no surprise that around half those taking part at Salt Lake themselves have military backgrounds. All, however, will still need special permits from the U.S. Secret Service to carry their rifles, according to Lyle Nelson, director of biathlon for the Salt Lake Organising Committee. While the sport did not make its Olympic debut until 1960, it has a long history, dating back to 1767 when Swedish and Norwegian border guards held a skiing and shooting competition. To this day, the sport is dominated by Europeans. Norwegian Ole Einar Bjoerndalen, who won gold in the 10km event as well as a silver at the 1998 Nagano Olympics, looks set to catch the eye again, particularly since he is seeking a historic double by entering the 30km cross-country event as well. Other big names include husband-and-wife team Raphael Poiree -- of France -- and Liv Grete Poiree -- of Norway. Each won golds on the same day at the 2000 world championships three months before they wed. The biathlon program kicks off on February 11 with the men's 20km and women's 15km individual race. The key to the sport is to balance harsh physical endeavour with pinpoint control, the athletes fighting to master their breathing after each demanding skiing leg before taking .22 caliber rifles from their backs to shoot at five targets. At Soldier Hollow, the track leading up to the shooting areas is slightly downhill, to give the athletes a chance to catch their breath, according to Anna Kullebund, the venue spokeswoman. Missed targets can cost medals, with competitors either penalised a minute or forced to ski a 150-meter penalty loop, depending on the discipline. "You can see somebody come out of the range in first place and see them miss two shots and drop to 11th place," Nelson said. The penalty loop will be skied directly in front of the main audience "so spectators can see, so you can absorb the impact," Nelson said. The organizers are particularly proud of the Soldier Hollow course, designed to give spectators good views of most of the race. Medal events: Feb 11 -- men's 20km, women's 15km. Favorites: Men -- Pavel Rostovtsev (Russia), Frank Luck (Germany), Ole Einar Bjoerndalen (Norway). Women -- Magdalena Forsberg (Sweden), Olena Zubrilova (Ukraine), Gunn Margit Andreassen (Norway). Feb 13 -- men's 10km, women's 7.5km. Favorites: Men -- Ole Einar Bjoerndalen (Norway), Raphael Poiree (France), Frank Luck (Germany). Women -- Liv Grete Poiree (Norway), Olena Zubrilova (Ukraine), Magdalena Forsberg (Sweden). Feb 16 -- men's combined pursuit, women's combined pursuit. Favorites: Men -- Raphael Poiree (France), Pavel Rostovtsev (Russia), Frank Luck (Germany). Women -- Magdalena Forsberg (Sweden), Liv Grete Poiree (Norway), Olena Zubrilova (Ukraine). Feb 18 -- women's 4x7.5km relay. Favorites: France, Germany, Norway. Feb 20 -- men's 4x7.5km relay. Favorites: Norway, Germany, Belarus. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:52:19 -0600 From: "Trigger Mortis" Subject: Re: the apathy of the majority of gun owners >Dennis Sorensen's response: >Jim I agree with you about the apathy of the majority of gun owners. For >the >most they are a pathetic bunch of cheap bastards. Very few belong to the >NFA >or any other organization that is fighting for us. >However petitions are normally ignored by the government, and really do >nothing to forward a point, except to maybe make those signing the petition >feel better as if they have done something. >Just my thoughts, I hope I offended somebody! ================= You didn't offend anyone here, Dennis. I think your thoughts were put succinctly. The people on this list agree with you, at least I do. The apathetic people can't be bothered subscribing. Bye. Al. alan__harper@cogeco.ca SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:52:23 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: Fenced-hunting review 'flawed,' opponents say http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?f=/stories/20020209/6658.html February 9, 2002 Fenced-hunting review 'flawed,' opponents say Claim government bias: Public meetings were dominated by game farmers Robert Remington National Post CALGARY - Opponents of shooting captive elk and deer on fenced game farms fear the Alberta government is biased on the issue and should hold formal public hearings on the controversial practice, which has been banned in Manitoba and other jurisdictions. Lobbyists for Alberta game farmers go before a closed-door legislative committee on Monday to argue for fenced hunting preserves, which opponents refer to as shooting farms. Those opposed to the practice fear the committee, weighted in favour of rural government members, will be sympathetic to the game ranchers. They argue the government is already tainted by its associations with the game-ranching industry. Marvin Moore, a former Cabinet minister and the Tory campaign manager in the last provincial election, is a game farmer, as is his brother, Norm Moore, a former spokesman for the game-farming industry. Opponents of game farming also note Ralph Klein, the Alberta Premier, recently got into the business by purchasing six bison, which are raised by Marvin Moore. The game farmers' submission to the Standing Policy Committee on Sustainable Resource Development follows public information meetings the industry held last summer. Those hearings were dominated by game farmers, according to the industry's own figures, which estimates 65% of those in attendance were from the industry. Government staff from Alberta Agriculture were on hand to tabulate responses at the meetings. "I don't object to any group going out there to present their case. The problem with the whole thing is they cooked this up with government representatives in attendance to assess the public mood," said Darrel Rowledge of the Alliance for Public Wildlife, an umbrella organization of groups opposed to game-farm shoots. "The whole thing from beginning to end was absurdly flawed in terms of any legitimacy or objectivity," said Mr. Rowledge. "This is nothing remotely close to public process. These were meetings by game farmers for game farmers." Marie McDonnell, a spokeswoman for Alberta Agriculture, said government staff monitored public response but has not released its assessment of the hearings. Mr. Rowledge said the transparency of the process is important because the Alberta government has said it will not change legislation outlawing the shooting of captive deer and elk without widespread public support. Following the game ranchers' hearings last summer, Alliance for Public Wildlife released a poll showing 76% of voters in the last Alberta election opposed legalizing shooting of farmed deer and elk inside fenced compounds. The survey of 400 people by the COMPAS organization was completed between July 28 and 30 and is considered accurate to within 5.1%, 19 times out of 20. Game farmers, represented by the Alberta Elk Association and the Alberta Whitetail and Mule Deer Association, say the shooting of captive animals on fenced reserves, of a minimum 240 hectares in size with adequate cover for them to elude hunters, could result in at least $30-million in new revenue for the government. It says Alberta is losing revenue to Saskatchewan, which allows the fenced hunting reserves and takes in about $10-million annually from the industry. Critics note Saskatchewan has paid out more than double that amount to combat chronic wasting disease (CWD) among farm-raised elk and deer following an outbreak of the disease, a relative of mad cow disease, last year. Two cases that had apparently spread to wild deer were reported near the Alberta border in November. The disease is not believed to be transmittable to humans or livestock. Saskatchewan killed almost 7,000 farm elk to stop the spread of the disease, testing 5,300 and confirming the disease in 175 animals. "Game farming fosters and spreads disease," according to Valerius Geist, professor emeritus and former head of the department of environmental science at the University of Calgary, one of the most outspoken critics of game farming. His 1985 research paper, Game Ranching: the Sugar Coated Cyandie Pill, is often cited by the scientific community. Mr. Rowledge, a hunter, said it is little wonder that game farmers in Alberta now want the government to allow shooting on fenced reserves, which mainly attracts a wealthy American and European clientele. The outbreak of CWD sent prices plunging and resulted in an Asian ban on North American elk antler, which Mr. Rowledge refers to as "snake oil," from $120 a pound four years ago to about $20. Shooting captive elk and deer runs contrary to the Alberta government's discussion paper issued in 1984 by two ministers. The paper states, "The hunting for recreation or profit of any animal should be prohibited in all captive wildlife situations, including big game ranches." bremington@nationalpost.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 21:52:23 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: Langham case erodes faith in police http://www.canada.com/components/printstory/printstory.asp?id={79DBA05D-F1DA-49ED-A705-0AC2DF3A7A86} Saturday » February 9 » 2002 Langham case erodes faith in police Eileen Neufeld Saskatoon StarPhoenix Letter to the Editor Re the stabbing at Langham. It is obvious that if someone broke into my house and started stabbing me, I would not be rescued by the police. They would wait until the perpetrator ran away and then go after him. Meanwhile, I would be dying from my wounds. The police, who are trained for combat, are more concerned for their safety than the citizens they are supposed to protect. While the person inside is getting stabbed to death, the police are running around outside "securing the area." My faith in the police department in completely gone. Who are we going to call if this should happen to us? Eileen Neufeld Saskatoon © Copyright 2002 Saskatoon StarPhoenix ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:07:27 -0600 From: Jim Powlesland Subject: Re: Slippery slope On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Lee Jasper wrote: > It seems to me that once the RFC accepted the licencing > provisions of C-68, we started down the slippery slope. "Accepted" is hardly the word. T he RFC was forced to submit to this draconion licensing scheme under the threat of criminal records and 10-year prison sentences. > Furthermore the RFC even advocated 'our own' licencing regime. Which did not include the criminal code. Big difference. > We had already jaundiced our position by accepting the registration > of restricted and prohibited firearms. Which isn't suprising since that registry began in 1934. > Many gun owners have already co-operated with the current > registration regime. Many gun owners are not very bright. The CFC knows this and exploits it with misleading mailouts and dumbed-down TV advertising. > It is my belief that the only 'game in town' is in the method(s) we > chose to follow the law - and I have argued that we do so by > compulsively obeying the legislation, to the absolute letter. Nonsense. Court challenges and peaceful resistance are another two options. > I haven't quite figured it all out as yet. But writing in unknown in > all sections of a registration form is seen by many as a quick trip > to the slammer. Nonsense. The form will simply be sent back. It is merely a tactic to burden the system. No-one except Liberal lackeys care if you have a card or not. All you will need after the deadline is a photocopy of your application to satisfy the cops that you attempted to comply. > Many believe a judge would say if you're a licenced gun owner you're > enough of an expert to see that your rifle has Winchester stamped on > the frame - to claim you can't know, is totally facetious. Oh really? And how many judges do you suppose are aware that the maker of Winchester rifles is NOT Winchester? (hint: Winchester only makes ammunition) As a licensed gun owner you are obviously not "enough of an expert" to know that. > Er, we 'have to' know the make, model, horsepower, etc. of our > automobiles, tractors, ATVs, snowmobiles, etc. and we are not all > mechanics. Er, we don't get sent to jail for giving incorrect information to our insurance broker. > Obey the law religiously. Get stuffed. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:07:27 -0600 From: Jim Powlesland Subject: Re: Verifiers I Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, Trigger Mortis wrote: > I have to take my firearms to the verifier?????????? > > Sorry, I am not taking them anywhere! If they want to see the > information, they are coming to my place to see it. I suppose it would be up the individual verifier whether they do "house calls" or not. My guess is that many of them work for firearms businesses and will request that you bring them "down to the shop" if you want them verified. BTW, the following is the response I got when I inquired about verifiers in the Calgary area. No idea if the two names I received work for a local gun shop or not though - I didn't call them. :-) - ---- Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 10:20:49 -0500 From: Louis Brzozowski To: powlesla@calcna.ab.ca Subject: Re: verifiers Sir, If you require the assistance of a Verifier in the Calgary area, please provide me with your postal code and I will provide you with the names and telephone numbers of the two Verifiers closest to you. Please note, due to confidentiality agreements with our Approved Verifiers in Canada, lists of Verifiers are not made available to outside agencies, businesses or members of the public. If you have any further questions or concerns you may contact the Verifiers Network, National Coordinator at 1 800 731-4000 ext. 1012. L. Brzozowski CSU Officer Canadian Firearms Registry RCMP - --- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:07:26 -0600 From: "G. Bjornson" Subject: [Fwd: BILL MOSS] From: Bob Thomas Subject: BILL MOSS To All HCMC Members It is with great sadness that I must inform you of the untimely passing of our secretary/treasurer, Bill Moss. Bill passed away on the 6th of February, His funeral service will be held on Monday the 11th of Feb. in Tottenham, with viewing on Sunday 10th of Feb. Details will be in Saturdays Toronto Star. Bill will be greatly missed by the Haliburton County Marksmen Club and by all who had the privilege of knowing him. Bill was active in our club since its inception.He has held the majority of the executive positions at one time or another and has been our club Sec/Tres. for the past 7 years. Bill was also an IPSC shooter until his health got the better of him. Bill was instrumental in acquiring the land for our present location, was our contact man for ATTs and the person to go to when a question had to be answered. There is not enough room to list all of Bill's accomplishments and responsibilities that he has undertaken over the years. All we can do is wish him well in his new journey. He will be sadly missed. Bob Thomas HCMC - --------------9F5715E7DC4E0F081C197BF9-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:07:28 -0600 From: Michael Ackermann Subject: Letter to the Editor In a recent news item we read that a repeat violent offender, Michael Dwight Allen, while on a 10 year gun ownership ban had no trouble getting the illegal handgun he used to shoot two people at a bar. Despite his extensive history, the charges were tossed out and he walks with time served awaiting trial. He doesn't even have to serve the mandatory minimum sentence of four years dictated by the Firearms Act for using a gun in the commission of a felony. In other news we read that early paroled cop killer Randall Tabah was arrested, while in possession of a loaded handgun, for break and enter and assault. Unfortunately, examples of this kind of misdirected 'justice' are becoming all too common these days. Boy! I feel so much safer knowing that the Billion Dollar Boondoggle, otherwise known as the Firearms Registry, is there to protect me by harassing law abiding recreational shooters all the while ignoring the likes of Allen and Tabah. - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) President, St. Mary's Shooters Association Box 3, RR 1, 4132 Sonora Rd. Sherbrooke, NS Canada B0J 3C0 902-522-2172 My email: mikeack@ns.sympatico.caSMSA URL: www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mikeack/SMSA_Web_Page.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 22:08:49 -0600 From: MJ Subject: effective communivation Rick makes a very good point about effective communication. Compare _how_ [not what] information is presented by these two websites and it becomes clear why firearm owners are loosing the argument. http://www.nfa.ca/ http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/default-english.htm The nfa website might appeal to a small segment of the population - near sighted firearm owners, who can't read anything but BIG PRINT, whereas the anti-gun site is designed to appeal to all Canadians. The nfa site shouts "Buy This!!" just like all other websites with that big print in-your-face format. By contrast, the other site appears to offer up to date, useful information with quick links to more apparently useful information. Guess which site is likely to appeal to the open mind of the uninformed? A fence sitter visiting www.nfa.ca is instantly overwhelmed and finds little to spark their curiosity for useful information. A simple copy of the anti's site with truth rather than lies would be more effective than the NFA's attempt to educate Canadians. Try to find something like this effective example with a couple of clicks on the NFA site.... bon chance http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/Cda-US.htm I know nothing about web page design, but I do recognize effective communication. It's pretty obvious why our message only gets to the converted. MJ Rick Lowe said: >If you want to see an example of a job well done in selling a position, go >to: > >http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/default-english.htm > >Yes, it is full of errors that are closer to being outright lies than >anything else. Yes, it uses research that has been refuted time and again. >Yes, it plays on emotionalism and suggestive language. Yes, it uses logical >fallacies. > >The sooner we match her in professionalism and getting >OUR message across, the greater our chances of winning this battle. Nasty >labels and hotheaded comments aren't the way to do it. ___________________________ ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #533 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@shaw.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) If you find this service valuable, please consider making a tax-deductible donation to the freenet we use: Saskatoon Free-Net Assoc., 1702 20th St. West, Saskatoon SK S7M OZ9 Phone: (306) 382-7070 modem lines: (306) 956-3700 and (306) 956-3701 Home page: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/ These e-mail digests are free to everyone, and are made possible by the efforts of countless volunteers. Permission is granted to copy and distribute this digest as long as it not altered in any way.