From: Cdn-Firearms Digest [owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca] Sent: Monday, 11 February, 2002 13:26 To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #536 Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, February 11 2002 Volume 04 : Number 536 In this issue: JUSTICE COMMITTEE - Feb 5, 2002 [none] Re: bc PIG FARM SHOTS HIT 4 AT CLUB Visit to famed England gunmaker was a blast Letter: Police reaction overblown Lorne Gunter The Edmonton Journal Re: Hunters: let's take aim! [none] STRANGE BUT TRUE B.C. Verifier Responds Courts must take restraining orders more seriously: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:28:23 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: JUSTICE COMMITTEE - Feb 5, 2002 MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS Meeting No. 60 Tuesday, February 5, 2002 The Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights met at 11:10 a.m. this day, in Room 308, West Block, the Chair, Andy Scott, presiding. Members of the Committee present: Carole-Marie Allard, Michel Bellehumeur, Chuck Cadman, Irwin Cotler, Brian Fitzpatrick, Ivan Grose, John Maloney, John McKay, Andy Scott, Kevin Sorenson, Vic Toews. Acting Members present: Bernard Patry for Paul DeVillers, Derek Lee for Lynn Myers, David Price for Stephen Owen, Garry Breitkreuz for Kevin Sorenson, Garry Breitkreuz for Vic Toews. In attendance: From the Library of Parliament: Philip Rosen, senior analyst. The Committee proceeded to consider its future business. Vic Toews moved - That the Committee or Sub-Committee study and hear witnesses with respect to the total cost and economic impact of the Firearms Act. After debate, on motion of John McKay, it was agreed that a decision on the motion would be deferred and that the motion would be reconsidered at a date following the appearance of the Minister of Justice to speak to the Estimates. At 12:15 p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair. Jean-François Pagé / Marie Danielle Vachon Clerks of the Committee PROCÈS-VERBAL Séance no 60 Le mardi 5 février 2002 Le Comité permanent de la justice et des droits de la personne se réunit aujourd'hui à 11 h 10, dans la salle 308 de l'édifice de l'Ouest, sous la présidence de Andy Scott, président. Membres du Comité présents : Carole-Marie Allard, Michel Bellehumeur, Chuck Cadman, Irwin Cotler, Brian Fitzpatrick, Ivan Grose, John Maloney, John McKay, Andy Scott, Kevin Sorenson, Vic Toews. Membres substituts présents : Bernard Patry pour Paul DeVillers, Derek Lee pour Lynn Myers, David Price pour Stephen Owen, Garry Breitkreuz pour Kevin Sorenson, Garry Breitkreuz pour Vic Toews Aussi présent : De la Bibliothèque du Parlement : Philip Rosen, analyste principal. Le Comité examine ses futurs travaux. Vic Toews propose, - Que le Comité ou un sous-comité fasse une étude du coût total de la Loi sur les armes à feu et de son impact économique et qu'il entende des témoins à ce sujet. Après débat, sur motion de John McKay, il est convenu de différer la décision sur cette motion et de réexaminer la motion après la comparution du ministre de la Justice au sujet du Budget des dépenses. À 12 h 15, le Comité s'ajourne jusqu'à nouvelle convocation de la présidence. Les greffiers du Comité Jean-François Pagé / Marie Danielle Vachon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:28:43 -0600 From: "hogan myster" Subject: [none] Rick, I don't always agree with you, but on this scenario of how to present information to the general public, a public where many don'e own firearms and don't really care one way of the other, I understand the importance or controlling the "spin". Don't give anti-gun people extra ammo (excuse the pun) to use against us. Present the facts about the Firearms Act clearly, why it is bad, how much it is costing, what other areas of private ownership this legistlation could lead to. And again on the topic of Police, I have to agree. Officer X HAS to enact the law, like it or lump it. That is his sworm duty to uphold laws LEGALLY passed by the Government. Now it "our" jobs, firearm enthusiasts, not so much to convince Police the law is bad, because wehter they agree or not is not at issue, they have to enforce it regardless of their personal views. It is to get the law changed, throw out...whatever the case maybe. And the ONLY way this will occur is to have the average Johnny Q and Susie Q realize WHY the law is bad. How much it is costing. Why it will never work. What alternatives there are. How the Law could impact them (reduced health care for example, more restrictions on other privately owned property...etc). Rick, you are an excellent writer, and I once was paid to write and speak in similar fashion...however so little time to read the CFD and respond...just wanted you to know you aren't the only one seeing the small window of opportunity to get the average Joe and Susie on our side closing. Hogan _________________________________________________________________ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:28:44 -0600 From: Bill McGarry Subject: Re: bc PIG FARM I first learned of the pigs amazing capacity to completely consume human remains while reading historical accounts of post battle clean up during the war of 1812... "Unintended Consequences" weaves the concept into a contemporary scenario which illustrates just how thoroughly effective our swine friends are. To bad the "pork barreling" process can't be reversed to accomplish similar results! On the other hand given the current popularity of politicians, I foresee serious potential in the pig farming industry... Bill (soon to be pig farming farming tycoon specializing in "pork barreled" hams.) "rossj." wrote: > > If there were 50 women murdered and they were chopped up and fed to the pigs, > they eat everything, bones included. > After 10 years, there may be nothing to find. > > Moderator: UGH! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:32:57 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: SHOTS HIT 4 AT CLUB PUBLICATION: The Toronto Sun DATE: 2002.02.11 SECTION: News PAGE: 10 BYLINE: Staff ILLUSTRATION: photo by Dave Thomas A MAN with gunshot wounds is treated byemergency crews outside Pavilion club. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- SHOTS HIT 4 AT CLUB - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- A nightclub patron ended an argument with the manager when he pulled out a handgun and opened fire, hitting four people yesterday. None of the injuries to the two men -- including the manager -- and two women were considered life-threatening. Toronto Police said the manager and a man were arguing inside the Pavilion club on Progress Ave. around 3 a.m. when the suspect pulled out a semi-automatic . The manager, 39, was hit in the neck and arm, while a 23-year-old man was shot in the chest and back. They both were taken to Sunnybrook hospital. Two women, aged 19 and 20 years, were also injured in the gunfire. While one woman was taken to another hospital and admitted for emergency treatment, another arrived at Scarborough General Hospital on her own where she was treated for a superficial wound to the leg and then released. Police said a fight erupted inside the club between some patrons and the manager. Detectives aren't clear what started the brawl. The shooter fled the scene, possibly in a silver Honda Accord. The gunman is described as black with a light complexion, and about 5-foot-11 with a skinny build. He wore a black jacket, blue jeans and agreen and black cotton tam. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:33:00 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Visit to famed England gunmaker was a blast PUBLICATION: The StarPhoenix (Saskatoon) DATE: 2002.02.11 EDITION: Final SECTION: Sports PAGE: C9 COLUMN: Outdoors BYLINE: Lloyd Litwin SOURCE: The StarPhoenix - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Visit to famed England gunmaker was a blast - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- I just got back from a business trip to England and am eager to tell you about one of the venues I visited on the holiday portion of the trip. On the first full day I had to sightsee I headed for the west side of London, taking the "tube" to Bond Street. While heading down the short five-block walk to Bruton Street I passed Sotheby's, Tiffany's and Christie's. I knew I was in the ritzy area of the city. I rounded the corner and saw the banners hanging from the upper levels for Holland and Holland. As a quality sporting enthusiast, I had arrived at Mecca. If you study the history of great guns you run into the name Holland and Holland in the 1800s. It is one of the few to survive from the hundreds of great makers in England. H and H not only made guns for royalty but were innovators as well, developing several highly regarded and successful calibres. Most of them were large African game calibres. One of the best magnum rounds is the .375 H+H. They still load the largest commercially available sporting round, the .700 H+H, which shoots a 1000-grain bullet. That's why some refer to the calibres as Ouch and Ouch. They were, and still are, very active in high quality side-by-side shotguns and were the first to introduce the over and under double shotgun. This is a large part of their business today. I arrived at the door and was met by a receptionist who asked what my business was today. I told her I was a lover from Canada, who could never afford one of their products, unless I won the Lottery, but considered this a sort of Mecca and dearly wanted to see the gunroom. She smiled and said that seemed like a good reason, unlocked the door and let me in. I went through the same procedure with the gentleman in the pinstripe suit and he said just wander around and enjoy myself. Beautiful glass-fronted, curved-door cases were full of shotguns and a few rifles. An old four-bore scattergun with a 40-inch barrel hung over the fireplace. Various accouterments were placed around the room and game heads from around the world hung on the walls. Behind the desk were large old ledgers documenting each made since the beginning and to whom it was sold. The wood on each was fabulous; Turkish walnut with beautiful figure and finished to a glassy sheen. The hand engraving covered almost all of the metal surfaces. When I dared to ask if I could hold one I was cheerfully assured that was no problem. I hefted a double 20 gauge and admired the beauty up close. We swapped it for a 12 gauge and I worked the action and marveled at the tight fit of the metal pieces and to the wood. They both balanced well and felt wonderful when shouldered and swung after an imaginary grouse. These are hand-made works of art that are every bit the equal of a Peter Paul Rubens or a Michelangelo creation. They have a utilitarian value as well. People buy them to shoot clay targets and to hunt. Only a short while ago Tom Selleck and Madonna both had guns fitted at H and H. I went to the clothing section and looked at what the well-dressed English sportsman wears to a shoot. I thought I might afford a tie pin or something as a memento of my visit. Ashtrays were 149 pounds. Ties were 60-120 pounds. Shooting vests were 325 pounds. Dog whistles were 40 pounds. As luck would have it, one of the clerks was a pro hockey player from Vancouver who knew what I was facing in the money department. He could see my love of the guns and my desire for something, anything, to take home. "From one Canadian to another," he said as he gave me a lapel pin and added, "you don't want to know" (the price). I went away with a picture of me holding one of the guns in front of one of those cabinets and with a huge grin. Lottery tickets were on my mind. Why lottery tickets you ask? Well, the cheapest side-by-side shotgun is 24,000 pounds and the average over and under around 45,000. The exchange rate is about $2.40 to the pound, so after GST and postage, you need a flush bank account with about $72,000 for the cheap one. Let's see, 6, 14, 28, 35, 39, 47, bonus number is . . . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:33:00 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Letter: Police reaction overblown PUBLICATION WINNIPEG FREE PRESS DATE : MON FEB.11,2002 PAGE : A11 CLASS : Focus EDITION : - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- LETTERS to the EDITOR... Police reaction overblown The citizens of Winnipeg should be asking themselves questions about the police service in their city. On Jan. 31, a call was made to the police about a young boy pointing a to his head outside of an apartment building. They dispatched approximately 20 officers (10 cruisers) to the scene within minutes. By the time they arrived, the boy was in his apartment on the sixth floor of the building. The police evacuated the floor of the building and then proceeded to storm the apartment, guns drawn, and handle both the 14-year-old boy (my nephew) and his mother (my sister-in-law) aggressively, physically separating them and pinning the boy against the wall. They proceeded to question him without the presence of his mother. There was no attempt to make contact with the family or to assess the situation before these events transpired. This is incredulous, given the fact that he is known to the police, having been reported missing on several occasions. Had this been done, they would have ascertained that the boy is cognitively and physically challenged. They also would have learned that the alleged weapon was in fact a toy cap . With a history of victimization because of his disabilities, this young boy needs to feel trust in the police system. Unfortunately for him, this will not be the reality any more. MAURA SANDERS Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:07:06 -0600 From: Edward Hudson Subject: Lorne Gunter The Edmonton Journal PUBLICATION: Edmonton Journal DATE: 2002.02.10 EDITION: Final SECTION: Opinion PAGE: A14 COLUMN: Lorne Gunter BYLINE: Lorne Gunter SOURCE: The Edmonton Journal - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Dead is dead, and safe is safe: Liberals' registry is targeting the least dangerous guns in the country - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- You'd never know it from reading my stuff, but I was once a member of the University of Alberta's writing skills committee. Among our tasks was reviewing freshman essays. One I'll never forget advocated strict gun control, and contained the memorable non sequitur "Gun control is needed more in the 20th Century than in previous centuries, because being killed with a bullet is more fatal than being killed by a sword." Hey, dead is dead. Medically, one kind of "killed" is no "more fatal" than the others. But I've often wondered if that freshman graduated and went on to a stellar career designing Canada's firearms regulations. Certainly the illogical obsession with the evils of guns was already present some 20 years ago. Last Sunday I wrote how the Liberals' gun control will be useless at preventing robberies. Firearms are only the third most common weapon used in robberies, well back of both fists and knives, and tied with clubs and blunt instruments. Moreover, nearly 90 per cent of the firearms used in robberies are already illegal or should have been registered even before the new firearms law. Handguns, for instance, account for 82 per cent of firearms robberies, even though handguns have been subject to compulsory registration since the Depression. Robbers now smuggle them instead. This week, even more firearms-robbery statistics came available, thanks to the determined digging of Saskatchewan Alliance MP Garry and researchers at the Library of Parliament. As with last week's figures, this week's lead to pretty much the same conclusion: Legal guns aren't the biggest problem in crime. Therefore, all the gun control in the world isn't going to have much impact on crime. In 2000, 800 victims of robbery suffered major injuries from their attackers. Only nine per cent of those (about 70 people) suffered major injuries from firearms, and nearly all of those injuries were inflicted with handguns, which, as I pointed out before, are already supposed to be registered. Fists -- technically "physical force" -- accounted for the largest percentage of major injuries (31 per cent), clubs and blunt instruments 18 per cent and knives 18 per cent. And just as dead is dead, a major injury is a major injury. StatsCan makes no distinction between one caused by a gun and one inflicted by a boot or switchblade. So it's no use to counter that a gunshot wound is more serious than a stab wound; there is an empirical definition of "major," and only wounds that exceed that threshold count, regardless of which kind of weapon inflicted them. So fists and feet and clubs and knives all injure more Canadians seriously each year than guns. But are guns still more dangerous? Guns are used in fewer robberies, so while their percentage of inflicted-injuries is smaller, perhaps in the robberies in which they are used, they are used more often to wound. Not so. To begin with, the chance of receiving any injury -- major, minor or indeterminate --if your assailant robs you with rifle or shotgun is so small StatsCan doesn't even register it. Of course, it's rifles and shotguns the Liberals are currently trying madly to register. Futile, futile, futile. If a robber uses a sawed-off rifle or shotgun (already an entirely illegal class of gun), you stand a one in-four chance of suffering an indeterminate injury, but again a statistically insignificant chance of a major or minor one. If a handgun is used, the victim has a one-in-three chance of being injured. But with a knife, the ratio is one in two. With a club or a fist, the chances are high --four in five -- you'll end up hurt in some way. The chance of receiving a major injury in a robbery is just about the same no matter what weapon (except one) is used. A knife gives a one-in-11 chance, a handgun a one-in-12 chance and physical force about one in 15. The exception is a club, bat or other blunt instrument. If you are attacked by a club-wielding robber, you're more likely to get hurt than not. You run a one-in-four chance of suffering a major injury, too. Put another way, if you're robbed by a guy with a club, there's a 25-per-cent chance he's going to hurt you badly. If he has a knife there's a nine-per-cent chance; a handgun, an eight-per-cent chance and his fist, a five-per-cent chance. If he has a hunting gun there is virtually no chance you'll be hurt badly, or at all. But instead of cleaning our streets of baseball bats, hidden knives and smuggled handguns (or better yet, of the criminals who use them), the Liberals are pouring $12 million a month, or more, into their registry of the least dangerous guns in the country. And you won't be one jotsafer for it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:07:06 -0600 From: Jim Powlesland Subject: Re: Hunters: let's take aim! On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, Ron McCutcheon wrote: >> "We should all just take a year off and not hunt" > > Sounds like "Cutting off our nose to spite our face". Exactly. And the animal rights activists would love it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:06:16 -0600 From: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: [none] [199.185.220.235]) by broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA16361 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:57:05 -0600 by priv-edtnes09-hme0.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.01 201-253-122-122-101-20011014) with SMTP id <20020211180648.LZPL28817.priv-edtnes09-hme0.telusplanet.net@Bob> for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:06:48 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c1b326$bd1ce080$87c6b8a1@Bob> From: "Bob Lickacz" To: Subject: HOGS / PIGS / SWINE Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:58:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 From: "rossj." Subject: STRANGE BUT TRUE From Mike The Scouse: Subject: B.C. Verifier Responds I Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Here is a message I received from a B.C. verifier. Since it arrived in my personal email and I never asked permission to repost it here, I deleted the name. - --- Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 07:10:36 -0800 From: [deleted] To: powlesla@calcna.ab.ca Subject: Re: Verifiers Dear Jim, I am a verifier in BC. I took the course because I like shooting, and want to help other people continue to shoot, and keep their firearms. The way it works for me is : The registrant gets my number from the CFC based on postal code. I then go to their home, with my PC and FRT, and look up the gun. I've met some really nice people in the last year doing this, and have had some great chats. I NEVER take down the persons name or any particulars about them (address, firearm, etc...) and if the gun is a prohib, I tell them that, and leave the registration decision up to them. I hope this answers your questions. Regards, [deleted] - --- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:26:15 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Courts must take restraining orders more seriously: PUBLICATION: The StarPhoenix (Saskatoon) DATE: 2002.02.01 EDITION: Final SECTION: Local PAGE: A10 BYLINE: ByBetty Ann Adam SOURCE: The StarPhoenix - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Courts must take restraining orders more seriously: advocate - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- The number of people violating restraining orders increased steadily in Saskatchewan between 1995 and 2000, Statistics Canada figures show. By 2000, there were more than 500 charges of people violating the orders to stay away from persons who feared harm from them. Most people charged with the offence got off with little more than a slap on the wrist. Peace bonds, as they are called, are imposed by the court. They may include orders for individuals to stay away from certain people and the places they frequent. The orders are often imposed in cases of domestic violence or stalking. But peace bonds are little protection against violent persons who are bent on harm and don't care about the law, says Kripa Sekhar, executive co-ordinator of the Saskatchewan Action Committee on the Status of Women (SAC). "If a man has exhibited the kind of violence that would warrant a restraining order, it's more likely it's going to happen again," Sekhar said. "The fact he chooses to violate that restraining order means he does not give a damn." There was a 53 per cent increase in the number of cases of people violating terms of restraining orders between 1995 and 2000, the Stats Can figures show. There were 509 cases in 2000, up 177 from 332 in 1995. Of the 509 cases in 2000, 355 were found guilty of violating the orders. In almost 30 per cent of cases, the courts withdrew the charge or stayed them. Among the 355 guilty cases, the great majority -- 310 -- got off with lenient punishment that included absolute discharges, conditional discharges, suspended sentences, payment of legal costs and suspension of driver's licences. Two were given prison sentences, five were put on probation and six were fined. Statistics Canada did not have information about sentences in 32 of the cases. Sekhar says women's advocates are frustrated by courts that consider violations of the peace bonds minor infractions. Authorities need greater awareness about the harm suffered by women who live with fear and intimidation, she said. "The majority of restraining orders are not violated, however, when they are it's certainly something the police take seriously," said Cpl. Grant Little of the Saskatoon city police. David Francis Cunningham, who is accused of murdering a woman in last week, had a restraining order against him, John Schreiner, the grandfather of the woman protected by the order, has said. Cunningham is charged with murder in connection with the stabbing death of 20-year-old Jackie Watt and two-year-old Bryant Cunningham. Watt was a close friend of Melissa Schreiner, Cunningham's former girlfriend and the motherof the injured child. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #536 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@shaw.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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