From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #618 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Saturday, March 16 2002 Volume 04 : Number 618 In this issue: Hunting accidents declined to the current rate of three per year. Even local Audubon Society chapters have supported limited euthanasia A senior federal Crown prosecutor charged with illegal hunting IBIS - software with legs Re: U.S. ATF Permit Required? NOT SO URGENT MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR Re: Teenager charged in pellet-gun incident MILARMS Re: 8 round revolver? RE: 8 round revolver? Re: U.S. ATF Permit required? RE: US ATF Permit required? Yahoo! News Story - LAPD Probe Illegal Weapons Sales My Letter to the Halifax Chronicle-Herald Re: My Letter to the Halifax Chronicle-Herald Out of the Vault Police Shootout Smart Cards Re: taxpayers Re: US ATF Permit required? CBC & East Elgin Sportsmen's Association ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:17:09 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Hunting accidents declined to the current rate of three per year. PUBLICATION WINNIPEG FREE PRESS DATE : FRI MAR.15,2002 PAGE : A14 CLASS : Focus EDITION : - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Editorial - Up and sledding - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Transportation Minister Steve Ashton yesterday welcomed a long-awaited report on snowmobiling, saying he was "confident" that it would "provide guidance as we strive to increase safety for snowmobilers in our province." If Mr. Ashton actually meant those words, then Manitobans can expect that the striving to which he refers will result in no appreciable improvement in safety. More than a year in the making and more than a month late, the report indicates that the Snowmobile Safety Working Group managed to come to grips with pretty much nothing at all. It recommends that snowmobile licence information be better displayed, that municipal governments be allowed to set speed limits, and that a new offence of "imprudent driving" be written into law. But on the real issues, the ones that might actually make a difference -- licensing operators and requiring they pass training programs - -- it doesn't know what to think and suggests that more study and hand-wringing be considered. What's required, of course, is decisiveness. The fact is that the committee can go on meeting indefinitely in a futile search for definitive proof that mandatory training works. There is no such proof, and there cannot be until such measures are implemented to test the theory. There is, however, no shortage of examples that mandatory training has worked in solving other safety problems, the most obvious of which was the introduction of mandatory hunter safety training after 44 accidents in 1969. Overnight, the number of accidents declined to the current rate of three per year. Ottawa has moved to toughen safety programs for boating, the province is bringing in graduated licensing for drivers. And yet, despite 91 snowmobiling deaths in the past seven years -- 12 last winter -- the wisdom of requiring children and adults to prove competence in the operation of machines that travel 160 km-h eludes the committee. Mr. Ashton has said the nice words the committee needs to hear. He should now get on with the task of doing what must be done to improve safety. It seems incredible that a government willing to use Autopac surpluses to fix leaking roofs on university campuses cannot find an appropriate way to get a snowmobile safety program up and sledding. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:21:45 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Even local Audubon Society chapters have supported limited euthanasia PUBLICATION: Edmonton Journal DATE: 2002.03.15 EDITION: Final SECTION: Opinion PAGE: A18 SOURCE: Philadelphia Inquirer - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Taking a gander at fowl guests - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- An editorial from the Philadelphia Inquirer: The United States has a growing illegal alien problem with a bunch of Canadians who just won't go home. Branta canadensis maxima, a.k.a. Canada geese, have taken up residence in office parks, golf courses, cornfields and even highway medians. Near airports, their flight patterns create a safety hazard. Their constant munching damages lawns and farmers' fields. Their droppings foul ponds and parks. Nationally, 3.5 million Canada geese have moved in permanently. The flock increases about 14 per cent a year. Most locales consider them messy, ill-tempered, unwanted visitors. But towns can't simply exterminate them, because, with their migratory cousins (who actually respect their visas), they're protected under the 1916 International Migratory Bird Treaty. So municipalities, school districts and private businesses contracts with firms such as the Goose Guys or Geese Police Inc. to chase off geese with dogs or to tamper with their eggs. Other non-lethal methods include spraying chemical repellents, shooting off pyrotechnics, blasting air horns and installing fences. But nothing seems particularly effective. The geese continue to adapt. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service wants to try to reduce the resident flock by 1.2 million by giving states more authority to sabotage eggs, relocate goslings, or round up adults for slaughter. , which doesn't significantly reduce populations anyway, isn't an option in urban areas. But before flocks are manageable, their size will likely have to be reduced. Even local Audubon Society chapters have supported limited euthanasia. The meat is usually donated to food banks. Non-migrating Canada geese aren't part of a natural ecosystem, so nature isn't going to deport them. Humans will have to, one way or another. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:23:36 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: A senior federal Crown prosecutor charged with illegal hunting PUBLICATION: The Leader-Post (Regina) DATE: 2002.03.15 EDITION: Final SECTION: Province PAGE: A8 BYLINE: Lori Coolican SOURCE: Saskatchewan News Newtwork DATELINE: SASKATOON - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Lawyer charged with illegal hunting - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- SASKATOON -- A senior federal Crown prosecutor from Saskatoon will be on the other side of the courtroom when he stands trial in Hanley this summer on a charge of illegally inside Blackstrap Provincial Park. Horst Dahlem says he's not guilty because Saskatchewan Environment and Resource Management (SERM), which oversees Blackstrap, has been remiss in properly marking the park's boundaries. "It came as a big surprise to me that they said where I was, was in fact park," Dahlem said Wednesday. He got the ticket last Nov. 19 after walking around with his rifle on what he thought was farmland about half a kilometre outside a fence marked as the park boundary. "For all intents and purposes, that appears to be the end of the park," he said. "Except it isn't. The next quarter to that has no sign on it of any sort . . . so you have the full impression that you are outside -- there's nothing whatever, not one single sign on that quarter that says that this is in fact provincial park." Dahlem has pleaded not guilty and is set to stand trial Aug. 20 in Hanley. The Crown is treating it as a summary offence, making the penalty less severe if he is convicted. He said the officers who gave him the ticket pointed out a small sign, about 275 metres south of him, which said "Provincial park boundary, no , no shooting," though it was not posted at a corner or an approach, where "No " signs are usually located to make them visible to drivers. "I never saw that sign at any time because I came from the other way," he said. "You can drive into that whole half-section there from below and never see a sign, there's nothing there." Given the appearance of the place -- Dahlem said there was even a tractor parked in the field -- visitors can't be blamed if they think it's private or unprotected land without proper signs to warn them, he said. A SERM spokesperson declined comment on the park's boundaries. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:32:11 -0600 From: Jim Hill Subject: IBIS - software with legs > The hefty cost of the IBIS ($540,000 U.S.) is one > reason no Canadian law-enforcement agencies have the > system. Yves Saint Marie, director of the Sūreté du > Quebec forensics lab, says the relatively low volume > of gun crime in Quebec does not justify buying such an > expensive system. > Now if they could only apply the same statement to the Firearms Act!! Jim Hill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:33:13 -0600 From: "Yannis Marine" Subject: Re: U.S. ATF Permit Required? You can get information from Taylor PD in Michigan. Tell them you are a PPC shooter. http://www.taylorpd.com/tpd.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:06:33 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: NOT SO URGENT MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR Thanks to the hard work and dilligence of the fine folks at the Saskatoon FreeNet, the "relay" problem has been resolved. Mail sent to either cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca or cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca should now be sucessfully routed to me for approval. My thanks for your patience and understanding. Bruce Mills Moderator Pro-Tem Canadian Firearms Digest ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 13:14:30 -0600 From: "Trigger Mortis" Subject: Re: Teenager charged in pellet-gun incident >Police have charged a 17-year-old boy with shooting two people with a >pellet > in west-end incidents. >The youth is to appear in court on two counts of discharging an air >with intent. ============ The youth could use several strikes in the ass with a goalie stick. Bye. Al. Life NFA, Ontario SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 13:17:16 -0600 From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: MILARMS Someone was inquiring about the status of Milarms. They are alive and well @ 780-424-5281 and were in operation yesterday from 8Am-5:30 PM Mountain standard time. Gordon Hitchen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 13:46:21 -0600 From: Alfred Hovdestad Subject: Re: 8 round revolver? Smith & Wesson model 627 http://www.smith-wesson.com/sport/pc627.html Alfred > hmmm? What kind of "revolver" other than a some .22s, is capable of 8 > rounds? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 14:42:39 -0600 From: "Gord Butler" Subject: RE: 8 round revolver? Gordon F. Butler - -----Original Message----- From: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca]On Behalf Of Alfred Hovdestad Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 2:46 PM Subject: Re: 8 round revolver? Smith & Wesson model 627 http://www.smith-wesson.com/sport/pc627.html Alfred Very nice piece. I have one of the first ones. Great shooter. Little bit hard to load the wad cutters with full moon clips. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:34:48 -0600 From: "Nelson Dahlgren" Subject: Re: U.S. ATF Permit required? > From: "the hamgran" > Subject: U.S. ATF Permit Required? > Does anyone know if Canadians require an ATF Import Permit (or any > other = > documentation) under the new U.S. regulations, to bring their own = > firearms and ammunition through the United States in transit. > We are from southern Ontario and once a year travel to northwestern = > Ontario to moose-hunt. We like to travel through Michigan, crossing > at = > Detroit and again at Sault Ste. Marie, as the distance is less. We = > sometimes stay overnight in Michigan one night while travelling, but = > always keep our guns and ammunition locked and cased during our > journey = > through the States. Will the new regulations apply to us (even though > = > we are not hunting or trapshooting in the U.S., or obtaining firearms > or = > ammunition in the U.S.?) > I have e-mailed the U.S. government three times now, through their = > website, with no answer. (The Canadian authorities couldn't give me > an = > answer and told me to contact the U.S. authorities.) > Cathy Countryman I enquired of the ATF regarding Cowboy Action Target Shooting in Montana. The process seems involved, but is probably not that difficult. Nelson, Calgary This is a copy of their reply: Nelson, Thank you for your email to ATF. The new procedure is for a form 6 application and documentation supporting one of the exceptions. In general, nonimmigrant aliens may not receive or possess firearms or ammunition in the United States. An exception exists under 18 U.S.C. section 922(g)(5)(B), for all aliens in the United States in a nonimmigrant classification (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(15) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(15)) AND under 18 U.S.C. section 922(y)(2)(A) when the nonimmigrant alien is admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes: 1. a nonimmigrant alien entering the United States to participate in a competitive target shooting event sponsored by a national, State, or local organization, devoted to the competitive use or other sporting use of firearms; or 2. a nonimmigrant alien entering the United States to display firearms at a sports or hunting trade show sponsored by a national, State, or local firearms trade organization, devoted to the competitive use or other sporting use of firearms. OR is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States. If the above situation applies, then the nonimmigrant alien must apply to the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) to import the firearm(s) and ammunition on the ATF Form 6 Part I application and attach to the Form 6 application, applicable documentation establishing that the alien falls within an exception to the nonimmigrant alien prohibition. Also the alien must present to the U.S. Customs Service the approved ATF Form 6 application and the applicable documentation establishing the exception or waiver, before importing or bringing a firearm or ammunition into the United States. Be advised the firearms must be removed from the territorial limits of the United States once the activity is done. You can download the Form 6 from our website at www.atf.treas.gov - -On the left side of the home page click on forms - -Under 5000 Regulatory Enforcement Operations & Programs click on 5300 Firearms and Ammunition Programs - -Click on ATF F 5330.3A The time standard for processing a Form 6 application is 4-6 weeks from the date that ATF receives a correct Form 6 application. Be advised that certain firearms are not importable. These include firearms under the purview of the National Firearms Act, semi-automatic assault weapons, and large capacity magazines. Magazines capacities for rifles and handguns must be 10 rounds or less and 5 rounds or less for shotguns. You must comply with all State laws relative to your possession of the firearm as an alien. For State and local requirements, you can contact the State Attorneys General, and/or State or local police at your destination. If your firearms are importable, please be advised that Federal law provides a person, who is not prohibited by the Gun Control Act from receiving or transporting firearms, the right to transport a firearm under certain conditions, notwithstanding State or local law to the contrary. The firearms must be unloaded and in a locked trunk or, in a vehicle lacking a trunk, in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console. Also, the carrying and possession must be lawful at the place of origin and destination (18 U.S.C. 926A, 27 CFR 178.38.) The permit application and copious information concerning the new permit requirements is listed on our website at www.atf.treas.gov. We trust the above information will be of assistance to you. If you should have further questions, please do not hesitate to contact the Imports Branch at (202) 927-8320. Regards, FEAS Division ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 16:15:02 -0600 From: "Rod Regier" Subject: RE: US ATF Permit required? > Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:59:38 -0600 > From: "the hamgran" > Subject: U.S. ATF Permit Required? > Does anyone know if Canadians require an ATF Import Permit (or any other > documentation) under the new U.S. regulations, to bring their own > firearms and ammunition through the United States in transit. > We are from southern Ontario and once a year travel to northwestern > Ontario to moose-hunt. We like to travel through Michigan, crossing at > Detroit and again at Sault Ste. Marie, as the distance is less. We > sometimes stay overnight in Michigan one night while travelling, but > always keep our guns and ammunition locked and cased during our journey > through the States. Will the new regulations apply to us (even though > we are not hunting or trapshooting in the U.S., or obtaining firearms > or ammunition in the U.S.?) > I have e-mailed the U.S. government three times now, through their > website, with no answer. (The Canadian authorities couldn't give me > an answer and told me to contact the U.S. authorities.) > Cathy Countryman In my opinion, I'm virtually certain that the ATF would require you to have a permit before you can bring a firearm into the United States whatever your travel itenary might be. Furthermore, since you won't be hunting or participating in a match event, the ATF would likely deny your permit application, since those are the only approved reasons for temporary (non-commercial) importation. ATF has made no provision for private "transit-thru" situations where individual non-resident firearm possessors may pass thru a portion of the United States on to a non-US final destination without hunting or competing. Yet another "unintended" consequences scenario... If transiting thru the US is important to you, you may want to arrange to participate in a match that will issue an advance written invitation so that you can satify the temporary importation requirement, and make application to the Canadian and US bureaucrats for the necessary permits. I believe other folks have reported that the folks manning the US border crossing points are not always clear on what the requirement is, so if you want to take a chance and accept "pot luck", the dice are yours... I see on the news that some National Guard units have been activated to fill in as border customs inspectors in the US. I suspect unlawful firearm importations are high on their "what to watch for" list. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 16:58:45 -0600 From: christopher@dolphinsoftware.bc.ca Subject: Yahoo! News Story - LAPD Probe Illegal Weapons Sales Christopher di Armani (christopher@dolphinsoftware.bc.ca) has sent you a news article - ------------------------------------------------------------ Personal message: Damn... good thing only the cops and military should have guns, huh? LAPD Probe Illegal Weapons Sales http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020314/ap_on_re_us/lapd_illegal_weapons_1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:27:09 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: My Letter to the Halifax Chronicle-Herald [Just submitted, not yet printed] - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: Claim unfounded Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:36:51 -0500 From: Bruce Mills To: Editor - Halifax Chronicle-Herald Ms. Baillargeon and the Coalition for Gun Control seem to think that it's ok that the actual numbers of murders goes up, as long as the _rate_ per 100,000 stays the same. This is playing games with statistics at the expense of real lives lost. I thought their mantra was "If it saves only one life"? Ms. Baillargeon also has her facts wrong - 1998 showed the year with the lowest amount of firearms homicides, not 1995. And firearms homicides increased by 21% from 1998 to 2000, under the Liberal's much vaunted Firearms Act. If it were having the intended effect, the rate would have decreased, not increased. Although Ms. Baillargeon makes the claim that there have been "more than 32 times more revocations", the Federal Government cannot show how many guns were confiscated from these people who had their licenses revoked. What is the point of "revoking" someone's licence and not following up by removing their guns (and keeping track of it)? She pleads with us to be "realistic" and to give the program more time, and yet handguns have been strictly regulated since 1934, and there are more handgun crimes now than ever before. How much time (and money) will it take? I say it has cost us far too much already. Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 22:24:43 -0600 From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: Re: My Letter to the Halifax Chronicle-Herald One of your better letters Bruce. Meaning it is excellent of course! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 22:26:04 -0600 From: awp Subject: Out of the Vault "For the 10 million long guns in Canada, I believe a registration scheme would be unworkable and impractical in comparison to its potential benefits." Former Liberal Solicitor General Warren Allmand COMMONS DEBATES - April 8, 1976 page 12,627. Only 197 working days to total C68 enslavement. Al. An AOB " FREEDOM " For those who Fought, Bled and Died For It " FREEDOM " has a FLAVOR THE PROTECTED will Never Know or Savor. Anonymous ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 23:20:16 -0600 From: "Ron McCutcheon" Subject: Police Shootout > Suspect killed in shootout; Body left > by road for 8 hours Probably reached for his seatbelt buckle. Ron McCutcheon P. Eng ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 23:21:59 -0600 From: "Ron McCutcheon" Subject: Smart Cards >All firearms owners would be issued with two smart cards, exactly >the same, duplicates, Photo, good for ten years, one thumb print, >chip inside. Problem is - gun control isn't smart. Ron McCutcheon P. Eng ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 01:10:21 -0600 From: "John Poulin" Subject: Re: taxpayers From: "B Farion" Hi; > Most of the people I ask about this quite cheerfully justify it as well spent! > They do not care if I throw in the "would the money not better be spent on cancer > research?"!! Exactly! Time to throw this argument away. I've had the same experience. Most don't care about the amount being spent on C-68 or if health care would be better off. We must re-evaluate our approach to the sheeple if we intend on convincing them of any truth. JP Poulin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 01:11:04 -0600 From: "John Poulin" Subject: Re: US ATF Permit required? From: "Rod Regier" > I see on the news that some National Guard units have been activated to > fill in as > border customs inspectors in the US. I suspect unlawful firearm > importations > are high on their "what to watch for" list. Yes, they have been in Detroit, MI since 9/11. They pull over all rental trucks and I mean all of them. Anything to do with hazardous materials is at the highest priority of course. You better have your papers in order when it come to firearms. Oh yeah, Bubba! JP Poulin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 11:46:31 -0600 From: Cyndi Subject: CBC & East Elgin Sportsmen's Association Congratulations to John Evers on the excellent job he did on this broadcast. I heard most of the show and was impressed with how John handled the interview and the call in questions. We need more of this positive and informative media coverage. Brian Ardiel ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #618 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@shaw.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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