From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #638 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Friday, March 22 2002 Volume 04 : Number 638 In this issue: Re: Purpose/goal of the Registry? Re: CNews: Youth crime declining, says StatsCan Re: Animal rights protesters demand more bite to laws Re: AUDITOR GENERAL IS AUDITING GUN REGISTRY Re: Registering your Black & Decker ?? [none] Interesting Dilemma Buckley gun charge defense - humour Customs fines Airsoft and Section 84(2)(d) Cretin the cretin weapons deemed not to be firearms Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #636 Re: Phonebooks Re: Registering your Black & Decker ?? Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #637 Re: Airsoft and Section 84(2)(d) When Guns Are Banned ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:13:25 -0600 From: "Trigger Mortis" Subject: Re: Purpose/goal of the Registry? >I was always under the impression that the purpose of the Registry was >to be able to uniquely identify each and every firearm in Canada, so >that every transaction it was involved in could be monitored and >apporved, and that every "state" that it was in, be it "in storage" or >"in use" could be accounted for, every minute of every day. ========== But, Bruce, the true mission of the registry is NOT to uniquely identify each gun. It is satisfactory for the registry to gather non-unique information, since the government only wants to know where the guns are and who has them and how many of them are there. Once the accurate numbers and locations are known, the confiscation may begin, just like they have done with handguns (58% of handguns declared prohibited). Their stated goals are merely a red herring to keep us busy while the true goal, complete confiscation of privately owned guns, can continue. Alan Harper Life NFA Life CSSA alan__harper@cogeco.ca SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:48:09 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: CNews: Youth crime declining, says StatsCan The Jordans wrote: > > Youth crime declining, says StatsCan > Thursday, March 21, 2002 > > OTTAWA (CP) -- Youth crime continued to decline in 2000-01 because > of a substantial decrease in property offences, although drug > offences rose, says Statistics Canada. > > "Youth courts heard 99,590 cases in the fiscal year 2000-01, down 10 > per cent from 1996-97," the survey covering youths aged 12 to 17 > found. I wonder how much of this can be attributed to the disparity between youth "aging out" out the 12-17 year old bracket, and there being a fewer number of youth "aging into" the same bracket. The recent census says the birth rate is down. I wonder what the stats look like for 18-24 year olds... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:49:05 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: Animal rights protesters demand more bite to laws "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" wrote: > > PUBLICATION: Calgary Herald > DATE: 2002.03.22 > EDITION: Final > SECTION: News > PAGE: A10 > SOURCE: The Canadian Press > DATELINE: OTTAWA > ILLUSTRATION: Photo: Jonathan Hayward, Canadian Press / Amy Musil of > theToronto Humane Society and her dog Benjamin take part in a march on > Parliament Hill in Ottawa on Thursday. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > Animal rights protesters demand more bite to laws > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > Animal rights activists took their dogs to Parliament Hill on Thursday > to > rally in support of giving federal animal cruelty legislation more > bite. > > About 75 owners and their four-legged friends marched and barked near > the > Centennial Flame in support of proposed bill C-15B, which would update > Canada's 110-year-old animal anti-cruelty legislation. Why do 75 animal rights loonies get several column inches, and 20 - 30,000 gun owners rate nothing? > The Canadian Alliance and the Tories are against the proposed > legislation, > calling it intrusive. > > Rick Smith, national director of the International Fund for Animal > Welfare, > accuses the parties of fear-mongering. > > Because the bill also contains changes to the Act, Smith > said, > the Alliance has dredged up the gun control debate. With no rebuttal to this, it sounds like the "gun control debate" is something to be swept aside and ignored. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:53:50 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: AUDITOR GENERAL IS AUDITING GUN REGISTRY "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" wrote: > > On Wednesday, March 20, 2002, Garry Breitkreuz, MP met with the Auditor > General of Canada, Mrs. Sheila Fraser and Assistant Auditor General, Mr. > Hugh McRoberts. The Auditor General advised that the results of her > financial audit of the Canadian Firearms Program will be included in her > November 2002 report to Parliament. Is this just a "financial review" that will reveal the costs only, or is it a "cost/benefit analysis" that will show whether or not our money is being spent wisely? Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:54:36 -0600 From: Jim Powlesland Subject: Re: Registering your Black & Decker ?? On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Boris Gimbarzevsky wrote: > While cleaning out my cupboards yesterday, I came across a firearm I > had forgotten about. I have a faint recollection of needing to > drive a nail into concrete some years back, and I purchased a device > in which one inserts a .22 blank, and then one puts a nail into the > chamber. The .22 blank is fired with a brisk hit from a hammer and > the nail is driven into concrete That sounds like a *Remington* Power Hammer. See http://www.totem.ab.ca/Online_Pages/hammersM02.htm > I haven't measured the barrel legnth so I don't know if it would be > considered a prohibited weapon. Or a bolt action. > It clearly meets the designation of a firearm, and given that it > can drive nails into concrete, the energy imparted to its projectile > would put it in the firearms class. And it does use .22s after all. > The only question I have is whether I should register this firearm > as a rifle or pistol? Well, the Remington Trigger-Activated Hammer certainly looks like a handgun anyway. ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:55:17 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: [none] Trigger Mortis wrote: > But, Bruce, the true mission of the registry is NOT to uniquely identify > each gun. It is satisfactory for the registry to gather non-unique > information, since the government only wants to know where the guns are and > who has them and how many of them are there. > > Once the accurate numbers and locations are known, the confiscation may > begin, just like they have done with handguns (58% of handguns declared > prohibited). Their stated goals are merely a red herring to keep us busy > while the true goal, complete confiscation of privately owned guns, can > continue. Rhetoric aside, though, for Registry to work as they say it should, is it not imperative that each and every firearm be "uniquely identified"? If you cannot "uniquely identify" each and every firearm, does that not call into question the accuracy of the Registry, and thus its effectiveness in tracking every transaction, and who owns what? If they can't *prove* that what is in their database is complete and up to the instant accurate, does it not become useless? Isn't that part of the reason why the CPA bought into it? Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:56:02 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: Interesting Dilemma > David Austin, a spokesman for the Canadian Firearms Centre, was not laughing > when he heard about the protest. > > Austin said what did was provide false information to procure a > registration and that is against the law. > > He may have filled out the application with the correct information about > the tools, but neither are firearms and that in itself is a violation. > > ``It's a serious matter,'' Austin said. ``If he looks at it very carefully, > he will see there is a requirement to provide accurate information on a > registration form for a firearm.'' > > Austin said that when non-restricted gun registrations come in, they are not > verified by a real person right away. The forms are scanned into the > national data base of guns and certificates are sent out as soon as possible > to avoid a backlog. > > Each registration is verified by someone eventually, Austin said, and > Buckley's would have been caught. > > ``You've got to understand that millions of these things are coming in at > one time and it will take a while to go back,'' Austin said. ``But we will > go back.'' > > If convicted of providing false information to get a gun registration > certificate, an individual faces anything from a $2,000 fine and six months > in jail to five years behind bars. This provides for an interesting dilemma: certainly, there is someone out there who has managed to register one of the types of air guns that the RCMP have classified as "Firearms". Does this mean that the CFC will charge those who have "falsely" registered these air guns, which they claim *aren't* firearms? Verrrrry interesting. Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:35:02 -0600 From: "Telly Branford" Subject: Buckley gun charge defense - humour The following is meant as humour only and for those who have a life: "Well, your Honour, this firearm WAS properly registered. You see, it is a black powder rifle featuring a screw-type barrel - but as it is seen here today its barrel and buttstock are removed. Since many calibres could be used, I decided to register it without the barrel and decide what calibre to use later on. As registered, we see only the receiver and the ignition system. To make it work, I first add this special pressed metal sleeve over the receiver. Then I drop a lead ball into the breech end of the barrel, add some gun powder, and screw the barrel into the sleeve covering the receiver. The buttstock clips on and we are ready for some target practice! The heating element is now in contact with the gun powder and we have a loaded firearm. To shoot this rifle, we plug the Black & Decker into the wall using a long extension cord and wait 40 seconds (plus or minus) depending on the sensitivity of the gun powder. It may not be the best firearm design out there, but you can take that issue up with the engineers at Black & Decker." ;-) T-Bran ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:35:20 -0600 From: "rossj." Subject: Customs fines Just another tax grab...a way to make money, and before a judge can say not guilty, they put you in collection and garnishee wages. I dont freaking think so. Every dog gets his day in court. Who are these customs nazis trying too impress with their excessive powers. Who will control these excessive powers. Bullet proof vests. next thing you know they are going to want guns, and then other sweeping powers. It is these kinds of groups that scare honest Canadians. One need only look to the MARSTAR raid to see how badly an honest mans rights were trampled and abused, his house destroyed because of these overzealous little hitlers. canada Customs...the largest street gang in canada with no control. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:36:31 -0600 From: "Lionel Armstrong" Subject: Airsoft and Section 84(2)(d) It seems to me that according to subsection (d) that Airsoft guns are also not considered to be firearms. Lionel. >>I seem to remember that those nail and rivet guns were exempt, and not considered to be firearms. Ah, yes, here is section 84(2) of the Canadian Criminal Code, (note subsection (b): - - ------- 84(2) Certain weapons deemed not to be firearms (2) Notwithstanding the definition "firearm" in subsection (1), for the purposes of the definitions "prohibited weapon" and "restricted weapon" in that subsection and for the purpose of section 93, subsections 97(1) and (3) and sections 102, 104, 105 and 116, the following weapons shall be deemed not to be firearms: (a) an antique firearm unless (i) but for this subsection, it would be a restricted weapon, and (ii) the person in possession thereof intends to discharge it; (b) any device designed, and intended by the person in possession thereof, for use exclusively for (i) signalling, notifying of distress or firing stud cartridges, explosive-driven rivets or similar industrial ammunition, or (ii) firing blank cartridges; (c) any shooting device designed, and intended by the person in possession thereof, for use exclusively for (i) slaughtering of domestic animals, (ii) tranquilizing animals, or (iii) discharging projectiles with lines attached thereto; and (d) any other barrelled weapon where it is proved that that weapon is not designed or adapted to discharge a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or to discharge a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:37:19 -0600 From: "jim davies" Subject: Cretin the cretin > Any one want to register a LASER pointer as a firearm? > How about registering da Cretin as a weapon? An OFFENSIVE weapon, of course. He can shoot the bull at a very high velocity. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:38:27 -0600 From: "Earl Johnston" Subject: weapons deemed not to be firearms In Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #637 Alan Harper (alan__harper@cogeco.ca) quoted part of the code as follows: > 84(2) Certain weapons deemed not to be firearms > > (2) Notwithstanding the definition "firearm" in subsection (1), for > the purposes of the definitions "prohibited weapon" and "restricted > weapon" in that subsection and for the purpose of section 93, > subsections 97(1) and (3) and sections 102, 104, 105 and 116, the > following weapons shall be deemed not to be firearms: ( snip ) > (c) any shooting device designed, and intended by the person in > possession thereof, for use exclusively for ( snip ) > (iii) discharging projectiles with lines attached thereto Does anyone have an opinion on how much line must be attached to the projectile, or how heavy it must be? Would a 1 inch piece of fine wire attached to the base of my cast bullet qualify as a projectile with a line attached? Perhaps a couple of inches of thread protected by a gas check would qualify, or.... Earl Johnston, ejohnston@ns.sympatico.ca To be governed is to be watched, inspected, directed, indoctrinated, numbered, estimated, regulated, commanded, controlled, law-driven, preached at, spied upon, censured, checked, valued, enrolled, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. -- Pierre-Joseph Proudhon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:39:30 -0600 From: Michael Ackermann Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #636 "McArthur has been in custody since the incident occurred in January and that counts as two months of time served. He was sentenced to a further eight months of closed custody and 12 months probation. McArthur is also prohibited from having a for 10 years." Her we go a-friggin'-gain! Another violent criminal uses a gun in the commission of a felonyand gets a cake walk rather than the "mandatory consecutive minimum sentence" of two years (1st offence) required by law. WHY won't they apply the laws already on the books?? - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) President, St. Mary's Shooters Association Box 3, RR 1, 4132 Sonora Rd. Sherbrooke, NS Canada B0J 3C0 902-522-2172 My email: mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca SMSA URL: www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mikeack/SMSA_Web_Page.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:40:26 -0600 From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: Re: Phonebooks Actually the phone books are simply secured very firmly with packing tape- including the envelope of course. A black felt pen adds the note - Registration forms enclosed! A real "bitch" to open but hey it is confidential information inside - maybe! Gordon At 12:07 PM 3/22/02 -0600, you wrote: >I believe humour is the spice of life (along with sex) and this seems >far too good to ignore. So tell me, are the phone books being wrapped >up so that the CFC doesn't know the contents until after the package >is received or are they being sent exposed? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:41:52 -0600 From: Gordon Hitchen Subject: Re: Registering your Black & Decker ?? At 01:54 PM 3/22/02 -0600, you wrote: >Well, the Remington Trigger-Activated Hammer certainly looks like a >handgun anyway. ;-) a multi-dextrous, single shot, color coded , near - handgun perhaps. After all if it looks like one , smells like one and makes the same noise?? Probably prohibited as well- no safety! Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:43:03 -0600 From: Bruce Merkley Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #637 At 01:12 PM 3/22/02 -0600, you wrote: >When NASA first started sending up astronauts, they quickly discovered >the ballpoint pens would not work in zero gravity. To combat the >problem, NASA scientists spent a decade and $12 Billion to develop a pen >that writes in zero gravity, upside down, underwater, on almost any >surface including glass and at temperatures ranging from below freezing >to 300C. The Russians used a pencil. As funny as this is, it is an urban legend...A graphite pencil in a gravity free, highly electronic environment is just asking for fire and other catastrophic results. check out this url regarding it http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.htm these guys at Snopes dot com are right on the ball when it comes to this stuff. Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:50:55 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: Airsoft and Section 84(2)(d) Lionel Armstrong wrote: > > It seems to me that according to subsection (d) that Airsoft guns are also > not considered to be firearms. > (d) any other barrelled weapon where it is proved that that weapon is > not designed or adapted to discharge a shot, bullet or other > projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second or to > discharge a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or > adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second. Yes, but.... The RCMP were using the lightweight "Lazerhawk" pellet to test these now classified as firearms airguns, that *does* manage to exceed 152.4 m/sec muzzle velocity. That is why muzzle *velocity* is a bad yardstick with which to measure what is a firearm and what is not. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:26:56 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: When Guns Are Banned http://64.39.30.79/columnists/metaksa/2002/metaksa03-20-02p.htm When Guns Are Banned FrontPageMagazine.com | March 20, 2002 By: Tanya Metaksa JOLLY OLD ENGLAND IS NOW EXPERIENCING THE TRUTH in the saying, "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." Law abiding citizens were forced to give up all their handguns after the British government passed one of the most stringent gun bans in the world in 1997. Pistols that had been in families for generations -- I know of one that that had been in the battle of Trafalgar -- as well as single shot Olympic pistols, were confiscated by the government for pennies on the dollar, all in the cause of public safety. Since that draconian gun law was passed as a response to the Dunblane schoolyard massacre, the crime rate has skyrocketed and according to the London Sunday Times of March 10, 2002, it is very easy to buy an illegal gun on the streets of London if you have a few hundred pounds. The journalist, Adam Nathan, reports, "an Albanian gang in north London wanted ?200 for the Italian made .22 gun with six rounds of ammunition. One of its six chambers had been drilled through to enable it to hold a full-size round." Nathan avoided purchasing the modified starter pistol because it was "seriously defective," but the gang operating from a car wash offered him other handguns from their selection of converted replicas and fully automatic machine guns. As a result of the burgeoning black market in illegal firearms, the British Association of Chief Police Officers estimates that there will be a 20 percent rise in gun crime this year, making it the third straight year of steep increases. The British Home Office reports that handgun crime is at its highest since 1993, while overall gun crimes have never been higher. Although much of the gun violence is related to gang warfare and the illicit drug trade, petty criminals are now using guns during common street crime. On New Year’s Day a 19-year-old girl was shot in the head even though she had relinquished the mobile phone the robber was after. The report of this incident in the Daily Express read, "Is anyone safe in Britain in 2002?'' Carrying a mobile phone in England appears to be a magnet for robbers; there were more than 700,000 mobile phones stolen last year alone. The robbers target everyone, even children. Prior to the New Year’s Day tragedy a 10-year-old London boy was robbed at gunpoint – the thieves took his phone and ?25 ($36.00). Criminal use of handguns since the 1997 ban has jumped by 40 percent. According to Associated Press, "Dave Rodgers, vice chairman of the Metropolitan Police Federation, said the ban made little difference to the number of guns in the hands of criminals." He acknowledged, "The underground supply of guns does not seem to have dried up at all." With its burgeoning crime rate London has surpassed the crime rate of New York City. During this same 5-year period, New York City’s crime rate dripped while London’s rose – in London crime pays. With fewer cops per 100,000 inhabitants than New York, those famous London Bobbies only solve one out of every five crimes while robberies in which criminals use violence or threaten violence have gone up by 35 percent in the past year. As for muggings Londoners are 25 percent more likely to be mugged than New Yorkers. Although the police acknowledge that they are helpless in "drying up" the flow of illegal arms, the government handgun ban has disenfranchised British athletes who participate in competitive handgun shooting disciplines. After the handgun ban was passed British handgun competitors, who wished to continue their sport, were forced to send their expensive equipment abroad. Muggers, robbers, drug addicts, and gang members carry firearms with impunity, while British pistol shooters are forced to travel great distances to train for such events as the Olympics and the Commonwealth Games. It’s ironic that when the Commonwealth Games open at Bisley this summer, the Queen will welcome all the competitors including the pistol shooters; but when it’s time to go home, the only ones who will not be able to take their equipment home with them will be those athletes that live closest to Bisley. The politicians and the gun banners won’t acknowledge that banning guns doesn’t stop criminals from misusing guns. So when their ban doesn’t work, they lobby for more of the same impotent solution. Tony Blair’s government is now calling for a ban on replica firearms, gun shaped cigarette lighters, and air pistols. When will they learn that the only people who will obey are law-abiding citizens, who don’t misuse real firearms, let alone replicas, air pistols, or cigarette lighters? Tanya K. Metaksa is the former executive director of the National Rifle Association's Institute for Legislative Action. She is the author of Safe, Not Sorry a self-protection manual, published in 1997. She has appeared on numerous talk and interview shows such as "Crossfire," the "Today" show, "Nightline," "This Week with David Brinkley" and the "McNeil-Lehrer Hour," among others. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #638 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@shaw.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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