From: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #658 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, April 1 2002 Volume 04 : Number 658 In this issue: Re: Uninformed Americans About Canada Re: Interesting point about the Queen Mum Re: accuracy in registration RE: accuracy in registration Re: accuracy in registration Re: accuracy in registration RE: Breaking News from Borque newswatch Re: Breaking News from Borque newswatch Re: accuracy in registration Martin and C-15 Interesting point about the Queen Mum REgistration/Calibre RE: accuracy in registration Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #657 Re: Breaking News from Borque newswatch Re: REgistration/Calibre Article: Fair Game (no subject) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:32:31 -0600 From: "John Poulin" Subject: Re: Uninformed Americans About Canada From: "John Milewski" > In digest V4-#656 a comment about uninformed Americans about Canada is probably very true. > I for one find Canada a very wonderful place. In fact I visit British Columbia as often as I can. > (Expensive trip form Wisconsin) If it were not for the gun laws in Canada it would be a beautiful > place to move to. So what you are saying is, a nice place to visit, but wouldn't want to live there? As long as you don't like guns, it's OK. JP Poulin "Happiness Is A Warm Gun" - John Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:33:26 -0600 From: "John Poulin" Subject: Re: Interesting point about the Queen Mum From: "C. Dillabough" > I was watching a documentary about the life and times of the Queen Mum > last night, and the most interesting point came up. In fact I am quite > surprised it was even mentioned in these sanitized left-wing times. Liberalism only works when there's no war on. Even then, it doesn't work well. Our best bet is to make them have nothing to do until a real opposition party gets rolling. JP Poulin "Happiness Is A Warm Gun" - John Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:46:18 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: accuracy in registration "Bear.23 Rogers" wrote: > >From the desk manual.... > Caliber > (1) Firearms - the approximate diameter of the circle formed by the tops of > the lands of a rifled barrel. > (2) Ammunition - a numerical term, without the decimal point, included in a > cartridge name to indicate the approximate bullet > diameter. The "Desk Manual" is not "the law" - and this even goes to show that they differentiate between a "calibre" and an "ammuntion" type. > actually now to think of it.. speed limits are not specified in the HTA nor > is the definition of a Kilometer I guess that means they don't apply > either.... However remember we are the ones pushing for common sense ... > Just because our legislators have none doesn't mean we have act stupider > then they are... I don't think that making them do their job is "acting stupid" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:08:48 -0600 From: "Trigger Mortis" Subject: RE: accuracy in registration >They ask for Gauge/Caliber on the forms so 12 gauge would have been the >correct answer... > >and if you read the explanation attached to all the forms... >"Gauge/Caliber" refers to the type of ammunition the firearm users; it is >usually stamped on the barrel of the firearm.. > >Dennis I understand your point but you are arguing with the wrong folks.... >We can read the forms and the definitions they print for the boxes.... If >you want to be the smart guy and define a 12 Gauge as .73 go for it... But >when you issue an opinion please state it as such otherwise people are >going >to think you are stating facts... > >You were wrong as to what was on the box and now you are just adding more >crap to dilute the issue... > > >Thanks >BW "Bear" Stephens ================ They want accuracy? How about "unknown"? That is accurate. Why guess at what they want in that field. Be honest. You don't know what they want, so answer "unknown". That is accurate. That is covering your butt, and your butt needs to be covered when you deal with the Dept of Justice. Alan Harper Life NFA Life CSSA alan__harper@cogeco.ca SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:09:36 -0600 From: "Trigger Mortis" Subject: Re: accuracy in registration >We should take a page, and a slogan, from the activists of the 60's: > >Question Authority! ================ How about "Eschew obfuscation"? Alan Harper Life NFA Life CSSA alan__harper@cogeco.ca SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:14:09 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: accuracy in registration Trigger Mortis wrote: > > >We should take a page, and a slogan, from the activists of the 60's: > > > >Question Authority! > > ================ > > How about "Eschew obfuscation"? Huh? Whatever it means, it still doesn't have the same ring to it. (just kidding, I know what it means, and I didn't even have to look it up) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:16:45 -0600 From: "Andy von Busse" Subject: RE: Breaking News from Borque newswatch I would bet this is an April Fools joke... and if for some reason it is not, God help us!! Can you imagine Rock as P.M.... methinks that he would almost make Trudeau look good. Of course, Brian Tobin would be back in a flash. Actually... if this is an April Fools joke, it is not funny, as the possible impact on financial markets would not be good. Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:31:38 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: Breaking News from Borque newswatch http://www.bourque.org/ EXCLUSIVE: THE STORY THAT WILL ROCK OFFICIAL OTTAWA MONDAY PAUL MARTIN QUITS POLITICS Bourque has learned that longtime Finance Minister Paul Martin has decided to quit his Cabinet position, resign his seat in Parliament ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:20:12 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: Breaking News from Borque newswatch Andy von Busse wrote: > > I would bet this is an April Fools joke... and if for some reason it is not, > God help us!! Can you imagine Rock as P.M.... methinks that he would almost > make Trudeau look good. Of course, Brian Tobin would be back in a flash. > Actually... if this is an April Fools joke, it is not funny, as the possible > impact on financial markets would not be good. That never occurred to me - it was before midnight when I sent that, so technically, it wasn't April Fool's Day... In any case, if it is, it is in very bad form. Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:23:25 -0600 From: "Trigger Mortis" Subject: Re: accuracy in registration > > >We should take a page, and a slogan, from the activists of the 60's: > > > > > >Question Authority! > > > > ================ > > > > How about "Eschew obfuscation"? > >Huh? > >Whatever it means, it still doesn't have the same ring to it. > >(just kidding, I know what it means, and I didn't even have to look it up) ============= I thought some other person in their 50's might recognize it. It was on T-shirts and posters in the 60's. Alan Harper Life NFA Life CSSA alan__harper@cogeco.ca SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:25:50 -0600 From: Michael Ackermann Subject: Martin and C-15 >From Bourque: "As for Martin himself, a successful businessman, it is said he will retire to a quieter life outside of the limelight to devote greater time to his wife and to a burgeoning hobby interest in the breeding of prize Charolais cattle and handsome "Fawn Runner" ducks which he hopes to show this fall at the Brome Lake & Havelock fairs. Developing." Lets hope he gets caught up by one of the myriad new or old regulations or laws that the statists have put in place and has his hobby and lifestyle ruined or made so complicated that all the joy is taken out of it. Then he can see how it feels to have his life invadede by faceless bureaucrats that no little about what they're regulationg and care even less. Of course that would require the world to have some form of Karmic justice and we all know that when it comes to the Lieberals there aint no justice. - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) President, St. Mary's Shooters Association Box 3, RR 1, 4132 Sonora Rd. Sherbrooke, NS Canada B0J 3C0 902-522-2172 My email: mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca SMSA URL: www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mikeack/SMSA_Web_Page.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:27:07 -0600 From: "Steven R. Struthers" Subject: Interesting point about the Queen Mum >Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:15:39 -0600 >From: "C. Dillabough" >Subject: Interesting point about the Queen Mum >I was watching a documentary about the life and times of the Queen Mum >last night, and the most interesting point came up. In fact I am quite >surprised it was even mentioned in these sanitized left-wing times. >It seems the old girl was always steely and would not back down. During >the Second World War she stated that she was "not going down like the >rest of the royals" in Europe. She acquired a revolver, likely an old >Webley, and took up target practice. Apparently she was ready to use >this firearm against any foreign intruder who might set foot in her >territory. She created such a stir with her attitude during the war >that Hitler called her "the most dangerous woman in Europe". A humorous >anecdote was mentioned about some government official asking where the >Queen was during an afternoon visit to the palace. He was informed that >she was in the garden practicing revolver shooting. This poor sop was >so terrified that he left by another exit so as to avoid the queen with >a gun... Like you, I'm much surprised too that facts like these found their way into our ignorantly and hysterically anti-gun media. There was an article about the Queen Mum on the Sympatico website yesterday. I believe it came from Canadian Press. The article says that during the Second World War the Queen Mum could often be found in the palace garden practicing marksmanship with a .303 Lee-Enfield rifle. Gotta love a royal who doesn't leave the job of self-defence to his or her courtiers. If you ever wonder where Princess Margaret got her 'don't-back-down, take-no-prisoners' ethic from, you need only look at her mum. As for the terrified government official, it seems there were lots of milquetoasts like him in the UK then, Neville Chamberlain being the most notable. Seems that the tradition of mouseyness has continued, alas. Thanks for the interesting tidbit. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:28:18 -0600 From: "hogan myster" Subject: REgistration/Calibre Ok, now you folks have gone and done it. I had to dig out all my books and re-read them in order to attempt to finalize this issue. Before I get all "legal", my question is this...are we supposed to be assisting actual firearms owners on this list? If so, we should be providing the actual FACTS regarding the law. Then if your true desire is to attempt to harpoon the law (wink, wink, nod, nod) then make your suggestions as to how this could be accomplished. BUT the actual FACTS should be given to all, so they may make thier own decisions. Suprisingly enough, there are more and more people reading this Digest, and just like when the deadline for Licencing approached, many were asking for advise. This will happen again as registration draws near, so lets make sure we present the facts (yes even if it assists the CFC, in a round about way) as we need to assist our fellow firearms owners. That being said, want to say, I think it is very clever to have come up with this calibre discussion, as the FRT disk will not list a 30-30 WIN as a 30 calibre...but as the actual shell used in the firearm (30-30 WIN). So by putting 30 Calibre in, will force human intervention in the registration process and slow things down, while at the same time the person registering can't be held "liable" of providing bad information. Course, with the registrations currently being issued (makes and models listed as unknown, with no serial number) makes me wonder just how accurate the CFC wants the database to begin with...but that is another subject. In the Firearms Act: Section 14: A registration certificate may be issued only for a firearm a)that bears a serial number sufficient to distinguish it from another firearm;or b)that is described in a prescribed manner. So what is the prescribed manner? This is the question!! Firearms Act, Section 54.(1): A licence, registration certificate or authorization may be issued only on application made in the prescribed form containing the prescribed information and accomanied by payment of the prescribed fees. 54.(2) An application for a licence, registration certificate or authorization must be made to (a)a chief firearms officer, in the case of a licence, an authorization to carry or an authorization to transport; or (b)the Registar, in the case of a registration certificate, an authorization to export or an authorization to import Well now we know we need to fill in the form, who is responsible for issuing what...but back to the "prescribed" form....hmmmm Section 61 (1) A licence or registration certificate must be in the prescribed form and include the prescribed information and any conditions attached to it. Damn...more prescribed stuff, but this time mentions "any conditions attached to it"....like, say, what the instructions tell you to do?? On the old registration forms Brown ones, JUS-675) the calibre is described as: Box 20 a)"Guage/Calibre" refers to the type of ammuunition the firearms uses, it is usually stamped on the barrel of the firearm. End of arguement, it clearly shows in the ACt, REgs and on the "prescribed" forms, what is required.... Now if you wish to suggest a nice form of civil dis-obedience, so be it...but all of us should be strivinbg to assist the firearms owners in thier attempt to decide for themselves how they wish to deal with the law. And one needs the actual information to make an informed decision. Course, didn't discuss the legal requirememnt of a verifier, if one doesn't know for 100% what the make and model of the firearm are...maybe that will be post number 2 (wink wink, nod nod) Hogan- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:29:19 -0600 From: "Earl Johnston" Subject: RE: accuracy in registration On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 "Bear.23 Rogers" wrote: > actually now to think of it.. speed limits are not specified in the HTA nor > is the definition of a Kilometer I guess that means they don't apply > either.... In the Nova Scotia Motor Vehicle Act speed limits ARE specified. Kilometre, however, is not defined. I suspect that it is not defined because every single Nova Scotian KNOWS that a kilometre is: " ( The length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299 792 458 of a second. ) X 1000 " - -- Earl Johnston ejohnston@ns.sympatico.ca "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:30:02 -0600 From: Michel Hebert Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #657 >Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:31:38 -0600 >From: Bruce Mills >Subject: Breaking News from Borque newswatch > >http://www.bourque.org/ > >EXCLUSIVE: THE STORY THAT WILL ROCK OFFICIAL OTTAWA MONDAY > >PAUL MARTIN QUITS POLITICS > > It is >understood that Prime Minister Jean Chretien has been made aware of >Martin's decision and is said to be preparing a dramatic overhaul to >his Cabinet where a bedrock Chretien loyalist will take over the >Finance portfolio, while others known to be Martin pilot fish are >expected to be dropped from Cabinet altogether. April Fool's day It has to be. Michel NFA # 1942 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:39:12 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: Breaking News from Borque newswatch Michel Hebert wrote: > April Fool's day > It has to be. > Michel > NFA # 1942 Yes, it was. My bad. Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:41:07 -0600 From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: REgistration/Calibre hogan myster wrote: > Section 61 (1) > A licence or registration certificate must be in the prescribed form and > include the prescribed information and any conditions attached to it. > > Damn...more prescribed stuff, but this time mentions "any conditions > attached to it"....like, say, what the instructions tell you to do?? > > On the old registration forms Brown ones, JUS-675) the calibre is described > as: > Box 20 a)"Guage/Calibre" refers to the type of ammuunition the firearms > uses, it is usually stamped on the barrel of the firearm. > > End of arguement, it clearly shows in the ACt, REgs and on the "prescribed" > forms, what is required.... > > Now if you wish to suggest a nice form of civil dis-obedience, so be > it...but all of us should be strivinbg to assist the firearms owners in > thier attempt to decide for themselves how they wish to deal with the law. > And one needs the actual information to make an informed decision. > > Course, didn't discuss the legal requirememnt of a verifier, if one doesn't > know for 100% what the make and model of the firearm are...maybe that will > be post number 2 (wink wink, nod nod) > > Hogan- Well, I would argue that "explanatory boxes" on the form aren't necessarily "conditions", and, even if they are, they can't give erroneous information, since that could be construed as "counselling an offence" to make a false statement. We'd have to look at the actual regulation or Order in Council that "prescribes" the "form" it is to take. Where those might be, I don't know. They have to abide by their own laws. Since the answer seems to be "nobody knows for sure", the only way to *be* sure is to get a verifier to do it for you. Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:27:23 -0600 From: "Paul Chicoine" Subject: Article: Fair Game Outdoor Canada April 2002 FAIR GAME by Aaron Kylie Let 'em have it The best way to beat the new gun law is to follow it Thanks, but no thanks. That's what the National Firearms Association (NFA) has been urging gun owners to scrawl across their application forms for free gun registration. A reasonable act of civil disobedience protesting the Firearms Act and the federal body overseeing its implementation, the Canadian Firearms Centre (CFC) ? Maybe so, but hunters would be shooting themselves in the foot if they went along with the NFA. For starters, if you don't register your guns by December 31, you'll be a crook. That's the law, whether you like it or not. And a list of hunters who won't register their guns will only play into the hands of the anti-hunting lobby by suggesting that we aren't law-abiding citizens. Besides, non-compliance won ’t make the CFC go away. What hunters should do, if they haven't already, is register their guns, if only to bolster our collective image. Sure, we know better, that the law is ineffective and an enormous waste of money-at least $327 million and counting as of 2000. But think of the model citizens we'll appear to be by comply en masse. More importantly, though, by dutifully completing our gun registration forms we'll further bog down the CFC in the colossal mess it already has on its hands. After all, what would be easier to input, a form that has "Thanks. But no thanks" written on it, or one that's been properly completed? Remember, this is an agency that still doesn't seem to have a clue as to the number of licensed gun owners in the country. Early last year, for example, the CFC announced it would have to send temporary licences to firearms owners waiting for their applications to clear This because of the backlog of last-minute applications that poured in to meet the December 31, 2 000, licensing deadline. If the CFC had such a great handle on the number of gun owners in Canada, why couldn't it deal with its own deadline ? Even now, the CFC is either unable or unwilling to supply basic data about gun ownership in the country, such as the number of licence holders in each province (which Outdoor Canada has requested on numerous occasions). Nor will the CFC reveal any sta-tistics from its licensing campaign, other than an estimate of the total num-ber of Canadians with new licences and the number of applicants it has rejected. Sure smacks of some serious disorganization. The licensing of gun owners aside, now the CFC hopes to register every individual gun in the country, and already there are indications of a similar fiasco, not to mention even more cost overruns. In fact, you need look no further than the CFC's decision last summer to temporar- ily waive the gun registration fee-hence the whole new wave of free registration forms-and reim-burse those who had already registered. According to Chantale Breton, the CFC's media information officer, the repayment of registration fees ($10 to $18 a pop, depending on when the owner registered) will actually save the CFC money, as will the free registration. When asked to supply statistical evi-dence to back that claim, Breton declined. Using the CFC's own num-bers, however, the payout alone would be between $5.3 million and $9.6 mil-lion. Hard to see the savings, isn't it? That the CFC appears to be suffocat-ing under the weight of is own ineffi-ciency should be enough o assuage conspiracy theorists who think that gun registration is the first step to gun con-fiscation. Besides, if government offi-cials really wanted to round up all the long guns in Canada, all they'd have to do is get their hands on each province's s and territory's list of licensed hunters. So, play along with the Firearms Act and register your guns. if we don't, we'll only draw public attention to ourselves and the problems with the law. And by all indications, the CFC is not about to broadcast the fact that it is failing miserably-especially when we do exactly as it asks. Managing editor AARON KYLIE registered his shotgun last October, He has yet to receive an official registration card. Letters@outdoorcanada.ca **** Note: On P.14 Facts from afield OC has printed statistics from the CFC by way of GPC research of the % breakdown urban/rural households with firearms. There is no disclaimer alerting readers that these may be suspect numbers since the CFC itself advised firearm owners to not answer questions if they have firearms or not. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 12:43:48 -0500 From: Bruce Mills Subject: (no subject) From: Jim Powlesland Subject: Re: New beer brews up funds for wildlife On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, Bruce Mills wrote: > This is a new group to me - I wonder what their *real* agenda is? Habitat conservation mostly. Part of the fees for the federal migratory waterfowl license goes to Wildlife Habitat Canada. >From "About Us" at the www.whc.org web site: "Wildlife Habitat Canada (WHC) is a national, non-profit, conservation organization which was established in 1984 by Environment Canada, provincial wildlife agencies and conservation agencies within the wildlife habitat coalition. WHC works through partnerships with communities, landowners, governments, non-government organizations, and industry to find effective solutions to complex environmental problems facing wildlife habitat. WHC's strategic approach to conservation is based on sound science which allows us to act as a CATALYST to develop new and innovative conservation programs, ASSESS policies and legislation that affect habitat, as well as the status of habitats in Canada, and SUPPORT high quality conservation initiatives across Canada to build capacity to conserve habitat on the ground." ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V4 #658 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@shaw.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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