From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #9 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Saturday, August 31 2002 Volume 05 : Number 009 In this issue: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #6 Re: Good Lawyers Re: Support the NFA! Billboards was Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #1 Locked house = lawful storage Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #8 GunSpunk! RFC Ottawa: Seeking Information on the Bill Baldwin Case Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #8 Another Milestone Firearm and tool-mark section moved Central office eh? Hmmm A good .22 target pistol for a woman. Re: NFA bashing Michael Enright is a gun owner Bruce Cockburn Re: "Your thoughts" request from JM Hinter Tourists shocked as grizzly shot in Yukon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:16:37 -0600 (CST) From: "ed" Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #6 I saw these messages about "Looking fo a Good Lawyer" so I did a Google search, nd found this: Q: Where can you find a good lawyer? A. In the cemetery Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a gigolo? A. A gigolo only screws one person at a time. Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a vampire? A. A vampire only sucks blood at night. Q:What is the difference between a lawyer and a rooster? A. When a rooster wakes up in the morning, its primal urge is to cluck defiance. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:53:57 -0600 (CST) From: "Mark Horstead" Subject: Re: Good Lawyers - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Hudson" To: Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 2:54 PM Subject: Re: Good Lawyers > We don't want to beat this law on "technicalities", we want to repeal > this law on "principle". It matters not _how_ this law is ultimately defeated, only that it _is_ defeated. Because _no_ government is likely to re-introduce something like this for a very long time. They continue to shovel money into this bottomless pit because they do not want to be seen to be indecisive, weak, waffling, or wrong because they believe that that will cost them votes. But once it's gone, they won't dare to try it again. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 20:51:02 -0600 (CST) From: "DJ MacIntyre" Subject: Re: Support the NFA! >Otherwise, I assume they just need my financial assistance. >I do *not* do charity work, and I do not tilt at windmills without > good reason ;-). >You consider fighting for *your* rights to be "charity work"? Why >should someone else fight on your behalf for *your* rights? Because I paid them, in good faith, to do so, by joining their organization ;-). And I *do* fight for my rights. The first step in any battle is to know your opponent. The Canadian Firarms Act. The second, to know the terrain. The Canadian Legal System. The third, to know your own capabilities. The opponent is blind, and self-crippling, and unable to support it's own weight in the light of day (wonder that Rock didn't get a trip to Disney Land for writing it ;-). The terrain is corrupt, and greatly favors the opponent without honest reason. My own capabilities are meager; but knowledge is truth, and truth is power. So I collect knowledge, and fund those with the capabilities to battle more effectively. > They don't belong to anyone else but *YOU*, so if *YOU* aren't part of >the solution, beyond paying someone else, *YOU* are part > of the problem. When I tell the Truth to the Unknowing, I generally make a pretty upset former-Unknower. And, in my opinion, that's what Canada needs; the same blood that took Normandy, the same blood that terrified it's enemies decades ago, needs to be put on a low boil. >"Freedom" isn't free, and There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Yeah, yeah. And Nothing In Life is Free. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. "I", as James Woods who so perfectly portrayed Hades in the Disney epic, Hercules, said, "get the concept..." >Not to be critical of you in particular, DJ, but this is the > attitude that we simply *must* overcome: that some activities > involving firearms are somehow "different" than others. I don't know, for instance, since you brought it up, jack-squat about IPSC. Sounds like fun, but, and this is probably a holdover from my professional life, I tend NOT to babble about things I know nothing about. It is quite easy to look dumber than paint and hurt the very cause you attempted to support when your "opinion" outreaches your "knowledge", and you run into a knowledgeable critic who demands you put your money where your mouth is ;-). >and perhaps even moreso since you actually go out and *kill* poor >defenseless animals instead of just paper targets... I have never killed a defenseless animal ;-). And I have killed many animals. However, I'll spare you the Jose Ortega Y Gasset epistle ;-). >I am, of course, Bruce, willing to do you the favor of reading > anything you send, as I, myself, was born on "The Mountain" in ole >Hamilton. Fire away >I thought the name looked familar... Well, unless you worked at Stelco with my father, or went to kindergarten with me, we might not have crossed many paths. We left Hamiltion when I was six ;-). There are, however, many cousins of mine still there. Rabble rousers, all ;-). >I will send you what I have in mind to you directly. And I will crack open an ice cold "Hek", and read it ;-). DJ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 21:49:38 -0600 (CST) From: The Jordans Subject: Billboards was Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #1 Peter Kearns wrote: "Simon says: If Paul were an NFA Member he could read Hinter's written answers this week to such questions from me as: Is there now, or has there ever been a bank account for contributions to the Billboard Campaign? Please answer Yes or No. Has the NFA ever paid any money to Davidson, Gregory, Danyluk for legal work relating to the "Dealer Challenge?" Please answer Yes or No." With respect for the excellent contributions you yourself have made in regards to the Customs Act Peter, you are WAY OFF BASE on this one. You know full well that the NFA is NOT in any way in charge of the Billboard Campaign, and that their involvement was strictly to COLLECT THE FUNDS FROM AND ON BEHALF OF ALL DONORS, which were then to be used by a committee for this purpose. This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING AN "NFA MEMBER", and the accounting of these funds has absolutely nothing to do with NFA members. The accounting of funds is legally owed to the ENTIRE RFC, and include many on "THIS digest" -- where it originated -- not the "NFA DIGEST". AND, the last I heard (from reliable sources), somewhere in the neighbourhood of $9,000 or $10,000 WAS RECEIVED for the Billboard Campaign, and this money was last seen in NFA hands. Where is it now? Why has no accounting been made of these NON-NFA funds? When can we expect to see it passed over to the committee for the Billboard Campaign? The Billboard Campaign is NOT NFA's baby -- it is the RFC's baby - -- and we would like to move it along. Must I yet again include copies of all the emails detailing the FACTS about WHOSE MONEY the Billboard Campaign funds belong to, for your and NFA perusal??? And WHOSE PROJECT it is? Peter, you are recognized and respected for your own contributions in the battle, especially as regards Customs matters. Don't let your misguided sense of duty (or whatever it is) to NFA tarnish you with the same brush as them. Linda ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 21:51:31 -0600 (CST) From: "Richard A. Fritze" Subject: Locked house = lawful storage Al Dorans wrote: " ... Canadian legal precedent that firearms locked in a safe storage container, namely a locked house, are considered safely stored. This is even more pronounced when the husband and wife are physically present to supervise those firearms inside that locked house when the police pay a visit, as in the Allen Carlos case. I wonder if Allen Carlos' lawyer Richard Fritze, pursued this avenue, or can he do so at this time before SCC sentencing is handed down" The firearms found in the Carlos residence were loaded. No form of storage is lawful if in that condition. Richard A. Fritze Counsel for Allen Carlos (780) 449-3808 - Phone (780) 464-6707 - Fax www.fritze.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 22:56:35 -0600 (CST) From: kim barbeau Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #8 > On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Bruce Mills wrote: > > > > Do you know of a Canadian song writer that could write, sing, > > > and record "The Gun Law Blues"? No Gun Grabbers though! > > > > Bruce Cockburn? > > You have got to be kidding. A Liberal leftie through and through. I have heard a story (unsubstantiated) that Bruce Cockburn is in favor of private gun ownership because he has been in many countries where private firearms ownership is not allowed. Remember that he has done a lot of charity work in third world countries run by dictators Kim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 22:57:45 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Redgwell Subject: GunSpunk! Bulletin! I managed to fight off the techno-geekoid glitch givers (which rhymes with ditch diggers) and got the 150 grain recipes page back up, at least in part. Also, Col. Biff Cooper has delivered some "Thoughts from the Shooter's Swami" which he tells me will be a regular monthly feature. Remember, he's getting on so be gentle with him. Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell http://www.303british.com "Hey! They're called Beefeaters, not Squashsuckers!" - SR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:13:58 -0600 (CST) From: Al Dorans Subject: RFC Ottawa: Seeking Information on the Bill Baldwin Case RFC Ottawa/FED UP Canada Protecting Canadian Freedoms ............................... Dear Bruce, August 31, 2002 The best person for the information you seek would likely be Bill Baldwin's lawyer, Scott Murray. He can be reached at his law practice of Mulvihill-Murray in Arnprior, Ontario. Email: mul-murray@arnprior.com Telephone: (613) 623-4246 (work) Fax: (613)623-8547 Professor Al Dorans Director, RFC Ottawa Chairman, FED UP II .............................................................................. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:14:36 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #8 kim barbeau wrote: > > > On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Bruce Mills wrote: > > > > > > Do you know of a Canadian song writer that could write, sing, > > > > and record "The Gun Law Blues"? No Gun Grabbers though! > > > > > > Bruce Cockburn? > > > > You have got to be kidding. A Liberal leftie through and through. > > I have heard a story (unsubstantiated) that Bruce Cockburn is in favor of > private > gun ownership because he has been in many countries where private firearms > ownership is not allowed. Remember that he has done a lot of charity work in > third world countries run by dictators > Kim Well, I did a Yahoo/Google search on Bruce and firearms, and all that seemed to come up was the fact that he owns some for "recreational purposes", and he does seem to support self defense. I can't seem to find his position on private gun ownership. However, he *is* a liberal leftie, and opposes land mines, and has done charity work for Oxfam, which is anti-gun. They support IANSA and the United Nations Conference on the Illicit Trade in Small Arms and Light Weapons: http://www.oxfam.org.uk/whatnew/press/unarms.htm http://www.oxfam.org.uk/campaign/campaigner/camp41/smallarms.htm Yours in Liberty, Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:42:40 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Another Milestone Dear Readers of the CFD: I see we have rolled around to Digest Volume 5 - that's 4 volumes of approximately 999 Digests - that's about 5,000, of about 30kb of messages each. Amazing! We owe a great debt of thanks to Skeeter, who started this whole ball rolling in 1994, and to all the Moderators, past, present and future, who try to keep this thing from running off the rails. And we owe a debt of thanks to all of you, too, who read this every day, and who contribute their thoughts, and speak their minds. We may not always agree, and we may not always like what is said, but at least we have a place where we can say it. The debate is *not* over. We *shall* overcome! Yours in Liberty, Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:31:49 -0600 (CST) From: "Richard A. Fritze" Subject: Firearm and tool-mark section moved Lab changes worry cops By RAQUEL EXNER -- Staff Writer Restructuring to six RCMP forensic labs in Canada that will have the firearm and tool-mark section moved out of Edmonton may hinder investigations, say conservation officers and city police. By April 2004, the firearm and tool-mark section will only be available in Vancouver, Regina and Halifax. "We're fairly concerned that we may have to box things up and send them out of Alberta and wait X number of days or possibly weeks to know what firearm we're dealing with or what calibre," said Jason Hanson, president of the Conservation Officers Association of Alberta. The group now plans to do some lobbying to keep the firearm and tool-mark section in Edmonton. Tim Folkman, acting general manager of the RCMP forensic lab in Edmonton, acknowledged the people most affected by the changes will be Edmonton city police, nearby RCMP detachments, and local provincial and federal law enforcement agencies. They're used to dropping by in person and having lab staff available only a short drive from crime scenes. Edmonton police spokesman Wes Bellmore conceded the changes could "potentially slow down investigations," but he didn't think the changes were unworkable. Folkman insists the changes won't affect service. By centralizing the sections in a few labs, the departments will have more staff and will be able to go through files more quickly. The RCMP forensic lab in Edmonton is the only crime lab in Alberta. It handles all the cases for the N.W.T, RCMP, municipal police forces and federal and provincial law enforcement agencies in Alberta. In 2004, Edmonton's RCMP forensic lab will offer biology, chemistry and documentation services. Besides the firearm and tool-mark section being axed, the toxicology section will also be shipped out and housed in three labs in Winnipeg, Halifax and Vancouver. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:34:16 -0600 (CST) From: Fred Hoenisch Subject: Central office eh? Hmmm Prof Dorans, and more recently Mr. Shepard, suggest that a central RFC office is what's needed in Ottawa because (and we all know this) "Ottawa is where it all happens." Well... I think "we" (if we live in Ontario) might know this, but the rest of us don't. Simple question - How can I be assured that my regional interests will be maintained, and that we'll have an equal say in a central office, if I'm living outside Ontario? Our flawed electoral system allows a single province to (more or less) determine who'll be Prime Minister - but don't think I'm going to assume it works that way with all the other organisations I work with. I'm not going to support 'handing over' all the work done in the various regions of Canada without a clear plan of action and a well defined statement of what this proposed central office is all about. It may shock some of you, but we live in a broad, diverse, and multi-cultural country, with many gun owners who aren't members of the Canadian Alliance (imagine that eh?). To get my support, a central RFC office will have to walk a fine line between political parties, remain focused on the goal of repealing the current act, and find ways to work with the party in power to preserve public firearm ownership in Canada. Until I see that, I'll continue to support the recent co-operation efforts between the various regional groups. Fred in Victoria. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:38:32 -0600 (CST) From: "Jules Sobrian" Subject: A good .22 target pistol for a woman. In response to somebody's enquiry, a gentleman proposed the following: "Check Access to Firearms from Whitehorse. There are usually 1 or 2 S&W model 41's. A target grade gun and reasonably priced. Actually won in the Olympics quite a few years ago. Or a Ruger MK 2 but avoid the bull barrel." I beg to disagree. My wife shoots a Wather GSP, which I consider to be one of the easiest and most forgiving of .22 standard pistols. It also has a very adjustable trigger mechanism. Linda Thom won a gold medal in the Los Angeles Olympics with such a pistol. I use a model 41 S&W with a five inch barrel and consider it to be the most difficult to shoot of all the standard pistols made. I do it because it is fun to do well what other people can't. As far as a S&W 41 winning at the olympics; dream on. It couldn't compete against the free pistols and there has never been a standard pistol match at the olympics. I won the Canadian National Championships with both the regular barrelled Ruger Mark 1 and the bull barrel version and there is nothing wrong with either gun. The bull barrel is more forgiving because of the shorter barrel time of the bullet and the shorter sight radius doesn't show shake as much. With regard to trigger adjusting, both bloody guns are a nightmare and only suitable for ownership and use by a competent gunsmith. So there. Jules ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:42:44 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Lowe Subject: Re: NFA bashing Dan Thomey > Re: NFA bashing-- it has crossed my mind to ask the question is all this NFA > bashing the work of government moles out to destroy the credibility of a > political threat? That's a first, Dan. The way that "moles" usually come up as a topic is when people wonder if Jim Hinter is a government mole put in place to destroy the NFA. Or if Tomlinson is a long term government plant, put in place back in his union days by the old Security Services. As for those "NFA bashers" (who in fact are concerned with the national oligarchy of the NFA, not the NFA provincially or as a whole), here's a bit of a cross-section: 1. Most are current or former national or provincial officers. 2. Many have lengthy records of volunteer service to the NFA. 3. One at least is an unabashed libertarian with a long record of government criticism. 4. One has been profiled in Report Magazine after the government attempted to coerce him to rein in his criticism of the CFC, the Firearms Act, and local firearms officers. You think that it just might be a complex conspiracy which involves an entire herd (gaggle, swarm, or whatever) of government moles? Seems a little farfetched to me. On the other hand, maybe the bigger question is whether you think the NFA is running just fine these days or what? And why... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:45:02 -0600 (CST) From: Challenger@agt.net Subject: Michael Enright is a gun owner >From "lunch with Jan Wong" Doubleday, Canada Pages 147 and 148 In an interview with Micheal Enright, Jan Wong wrote a column about Michael Enright afterwards "On air last year, He famously delclared his bias in favour of gun control, at the start of a CBC panel discussion on , yes, gun control. Listener complaints poured in. But Enright isn't only unrepentant, he doesn't think he was particularly brave. 'It's the majority opinion. The gutsy thing ot do would have been to say "Everybody should own a gun from the age of seven on. Do you think they would have let me keep my job if I'd said that?' Enright actually adores guns..." The next paragraph tells of his Cooey singleshot and then his Remington rifle. A direct quote "I love firing guns". Mr. Enright has NOT read the firearms act. One sad comment is that the vast majority of folks opposed to the firearms act support restrictions on who possesses and uses firearms but they do not support the firearms act once they become aware of the contents. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:46:18 -0600 (CST) From: "John Poulin" Subject: Bruce Cockburn From: "Jim Powlesland" > > Bruce Cockburn? > > You have got to be kidding. A Liberal leftie through and through. Many may not know this, but Bruce was an active IPSC shooter some years ago. I have seen some of his guns at Don Irvine's gunshop and a photo of Bruce with pistol on hip amongst many IPSC shooters. I don't know his status anymore whether he's active or not and how Liberal he really is. John ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 12:01:37 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Lowe Subject: Re: "Your thoughts" request from JM Hinter Hmmmm... I better go resubscribe to can.talk.guns to keep an eye on the Official NFA Liar. > JM Hinter posted on can.talk guns > If you have ever wondered why the gun-grabbers enjoy picking away at firearm > rights, chances are it is because they figure that by the time some firearm > owners finish "shooting" insults at each other, that they will have > confiscated all the firearms. This is the oft heard Hinter pitch "You shouldn't be asking me these embarrassing and difficult questions about how I spend your money right now". The main thrust of this snake oil is that we are in too much danger right now to be asking about incompetence, corruption, and just plain old bad decisions. Chretien uses the same argument to keep his caucus in line - except in his case he waves the spectre of the Alliance. > I am of the belief that if we, as firearm owners could all stand tall > together in some form of unified coalition, that in one single election, we > would make political changes in Canada that could echo around the world. Ah yes, the man who would be Winston Churchill. As usual, talking the talk but can't walk the walk. Hinter has proven time and again that he is incapable of working in concert with other firearms groups - as was his predecessor, Dave Tomlinson. > Your thoughts?? > > Jim Hinter > National President > National Firearms Association Simple. Jim, you're a liar, you're dishonest... and maybe worst of all, you're incompetent. I could probably forgive the first two if you were accomplishing something and see them as the price of success. But you don't even deliver that. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 12:02:24 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Tourists shocked as grizzly shot in Yukon Typical urbanite south Ontarian - trying to tell other people how to live their lives... http://www.cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/print.cgi?/2002/08/30/grizzly_020830 C B C . C A N e w s - F u l l S t o r y : Tourists shocked as grizzly shot in Yukon Last Updated Fri Aug 30 17:12:14 2002 DAWSON CITY, YUKON-- Tourists travelling through a territorial park say they were horrified this week when they saw hunters shoot a grizzly bear. Nancy Durrant and her brother had come from Southern Ontario, but not to see a grizzly killed before their eyes. Driving through Tombstone Park along the Dempster Highway north of Dawson City, they saw the bear and grabbed their video camera. Durrant was horrified at what happened next, because "you don't expect to see something shot," especially in a park. "You want to think that the northern areas are trying to protect their wildlife," she said. Conservation officers are looking into the matter, but Tim Gerberding, a member of the park management committee, says First Nations hunters have a treaty right to harvest wildlife. Non-First Nations hunters can use the park, too, and Gerberding says he doesn't see any reason to restrict hunting. The committee is recommending the park let visitors know what they can expect, "and therefore it wouldn't be a surprise, at least." But Durrant said the the only shooting she wants to see is with a camera, and if she'd known hunting was allowed, she never would have gone. Written by CBC News Online staff Copyright © 2002 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation - All Rights Reserved ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #9 ******************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@shaw.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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