From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #65 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Saturday, September 21 2002 Volume 05 : Number 065 In this issue: Re: War on Drugs! "I'm In Training To Serve On The NFA National Executive!" Cdn. police appalled by new prison party video An Ottawa Office Calgary Sun Editorial and Response 21 September 2002 Letter to the Editor of the Edmonton Sun 21 September 2002 Can Dave Come Out To Play? Another letter VcrProv: Botched raid leaves family in shock ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 02:30:55 -0600 (CST) From: "ed" Subject: Re: War on Drugs! There is nothing more phoney than the"war on drugs". It should be called the "War on Drug Competition". If you consider that there are, according to the book "Dope Inc.", 330,000 TONS of drugs brought ( 'smuggled' how do you hide an elephant this big? you don't.) annually into Canada by a prominent Canadian Railroad and international shipping company,(did you hear even a hint of a defamation law suit?), you realize that the piddling little shipments that are stopped are just little competitors. Obviously none of the little competitors must not be allowed to cut into the profits or to grow into an organization that could threaten the officially sanctioned drug 'importer'. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 02:35:23 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Lowe Subject: "I'm In Training To Serve On The NFA National Executive!" "Bob Lickacz" said: >> Hi; >> I listen to you! But you hardly ever reply to me!!!! > > Hey Billy: > > Nothing personal you understand, I'm in training for an executive position > with the NFA!!! Nice goin' Bob... ... you just made me snort some very expensive Scotch out my nose and all over my keyboard. I guess there's two lessons there: 1. Scotch is lousy for backwashing your sinuses; it really hurts. 2. You shouldn't drink Scotch in front of your keyboard unless you don't mind cleaning a liquid drenched keyboard. Anyway, I'm still laughing my ass off at that one. But Dave Tomlinson, Jim Hinter, and Wally Butts don't get the joke... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 02:36:05 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Cdn. police appalled by new prison party video Maybe when they arrest us all and throw us in the slammer, *WE* can get to have a party, too! http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20020920/prison_party_collins_bay_020920/TopStories/story/ Cdn. police appalled by new prison party video CTV News Staff Videotape shot inside one of Canada's toughest prisons and obtained by CTV News has police officers across the country fuming. On the tape, inmates at Collins Bay Penitentiary near Kingston, Ont., can allegedly be seen drinking alcohol, smoking drugs and partying without a guard in sight. "Once again, inmates appear to have been left totally to themselves to party... this is further evidence that the inmates are really running the asylum," Canadian Police Association Executive Officer David Griffin said in a statement. "Police officers risk their lives every day on the streets to try to keep our communities safe while the system allows murderers, rapists and violent offenders to party uncontrollably," it added. The videotape depicting a Chinese New Year's party was found during a search of a prisoner's cell inside the medium security prison. It was believed to have been shot sometime between October 2000 and January 2002. The solicitor general's office said while these things do happen, the office would investigate the matter with prison staff and that disciplinary action may be taken. Warden Alan Stevenson denied Friday reports the inmates were drunk or using drugs. "Cultural events are supported by Correctional Services Canada and we have no evidence at this point that the offenders were under the influence of any intoxicants," he said. Victims rights groups say such incidents are occurring too often, with two other cases in Saskatchewan and Quebec jails noted in the last month alone. Steve Sullivan, of the Canadian Resource Centre for Victims of Crime, says allowing inmates such liberties poses a serious risk to rehabilitation and prison security. "If it's true that there was alcohol, that there was marijuana ... if you mix that with these individuals that were there for violence. What if something had gone wrong?" asked Sullivan. The Canadian Alliance justice critic has called for a public inquiry. "The problem is they will continue until the public says we've had enough," said Randy White. "The exasperation ... the frustration ... this system is in bad need of repair." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:14:48 -0600 (CST) From: Ed Tait Subject: An Ottawa Office Professor Dorans I am a Life Member of the NRA who believes that there needs to be more action in the Media with regard the issue of the costs associated with Bill C-68 It may be that the NFA, given its recent difficulties may no longer be capable of focussing on the matter at hand, given its struggle to reorganize and thereby to 'stay in play'. I would be willing to support, monetarily, an office in Ottawa, or anywhere else, for that matter, particularly were its aim to focus public attention and thereby opinion, on the issue of monetary priority. I believe there is a compelling case to be made, that regardless, the system being acted-out now, with its upcoming deadline of the end of the year is unworkable, the money being funnelled to it by the Liberal Government could be much better used elsewhere. The education of the young and the health care of the elderly are two potential beneficiaries of such a re-direction that instantly come to mind. It is in my judgment, a battle to be won and/or lost in the Media. We must stop fighting amongst ourselves and raise money to employ professional public relations people to create and manage a campaign to win the opinions, hearts and minds of the older people in Canada. I believe older people will realize more readily than any other group in Canada, that firearms are not the danger, criminals are the danger. I also believe this group will be the most interested to know that a billion dollars which could have been directed to their benefit has been allocated by the Liberal government to a list.....and the costs are still rolling in.... It is also my judgment that only through a sea change in the level of pressure the Government 'feels' from the public, will they change course. I have seen polls that show up to 80% of Canadians support gun control..... We might march again, but nothing would be as powerful as middle aged and senior citizens writing their MP to ask why this money, if it is available, isn't being spent on them...! I await your advise as to where I might send my donation to assist in such an effort. Ed Tait Victoria ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:18:06 -0600 (CST) From: "Mark Horstead" Subject: Calgary Sun Editorial and Response 21 September 2002 >From the 21 September 2002 Calgary Sun http://www.canoe.ca/CalgarySun/editorial.html Waste not The Liberal trial balloon of financing health-care upgrades by boosting the GST from seven to 10% has been shot full of holes. Their suggestion that they will spend billions on their hastily conceived Kyoto plan, while at the same time cutting taxes, is so much hot air. If you buy that, we've got a golf course to sell you. Instead of cooking up absurd ways to fund their even more bizarre plans, the federal government should make haste to look for waste. There is no shortage of sources for a chunk of the money to fund items such as improved health care. And do it without sticking their hands into taxpayers' pockets, while continuing to pay down the debt at the same time. Let's review: Most notorious in recent years was the Human Resources Development boondoggle, in which Human Resources Minister Jane Stewart's department poorly tracked $1 billion in job training and other grants. Then there's the theory on Parliament Hill that a single Canadian embassy in Rome isn't sufficient -- we need two, the real one and one for the Vatican. This duplication costs taxpayers $2 million a year to operate, on top of the $5 million it cost to acquire it. What matters is the irresponsible thinking, not the dollar value. Don't forget the $2-billion "slush" fund that was supposed to flow through the Strategic Infrastructure Foundation -- safe from parliamentary scrutiny -- but since handed to Deputy PM John Manley for safekeeping. Or so we hope. Then, of course, there was the $40-million sponsorship program, mainly in Quebec, under which the federal government funded arts and sports events (some of which never happened) and paid advertising agencies to run them and prepare follow-up reports (some of which have gone missing, or never existed in the first place.). Meanwhile, Canadians have shown time and again they value a top-flight health-care system, but are concerned ours has fallen on hard times. It would be naive not to expect remedies in the Romanow Commission report due in November to come at a price. The federal Liberals, not surprisingly, are testing the waters of taking the easy route of increasing the GST by three percentage points. Such short-sighted, irresponsible action would only succeed in putting the brakes on spending -- and threaten our economic well-being. The Liberals should display some courage and integrity for a change and probe their own inept administration for funds. My response: Like most of your editorials, I enjoyed today's "Waste Not" - but don't forget to add the bloated federal Firearms Registry to the list of Liberal criminal stupidity. This has so far sucked up at least a billion dollars (and rising rapidly) for no benefit to the public whatsoever. That could have funded 2500 nurses at $40,000 each for ten years or 1,000 MRI machines across this country, or 2000 police officers at $50,000 each for ten years nationwide. It could also provide $1000 worth of much-needed aid to each each of 100,000 starving African families for ten years. Any of these represents a far better use of your tax money and mine. Mark L Horstead Newmarket, Ontario To e-mail a letter to the editor: callet@sunpub.com To be considered for publication, please include your full name, address and telephone number. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:23:04 -0600 (CST) From: "Mark Horstead" Subject: Letter to the Editor of the Edmonton Sun 21 September 2002 A couple of corrections to Mike King's letter today, if I may: Allan Rock's original claim was that the Firearms Act would cost no more than $85 million; it surpassed $500 million a long time ago and has now cost twice that; and it hasn't "ended up" yet - only about 4 million firearms have been registered out of 15 to 25 million in the hands of honest citizens. His point is certainly valid however. Mark L Horstead Newmarket, Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:27:45 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Lowe Subject: Can Dave Come Out To Play? Dave Tomlinson briefly emerged from hiding, just long enough to say: > It would appear that the message was from someone who > intended to do damage to the reputation of the NFA -- > someone so cowardly that he hides behind a faked email > address. Well, the issue of the "fake address" and how Jim Hinter is the most well known example of hiding behind fake email addresses has been pretty well dealt with by a number of people. But let's talk about Dave Tomlinson and his role in the current death spiral of the NFA. Dave surfaced just briefly long enough to take a shot at a critic because he thought they were using a faked email address - and then slid back into the dark murky waters where he lurks out of sight. If Dave can lurk and has the time to respond and discuss Mr. Ross's posting, then it's pretty clear he has the time to respond and discuss some other issues and questions people have, doesn't he? Well, lets see if Dave will come out to play. And he'll be receiving a copy of this, just in case he "happens" to miss the post here. I have to say that the idea of Dave Tomlinson whining about somebody else damaging the reputation of the NFA is more than a little amusing. The only REAL question about the damaged reputation of the NFA is who did more damage to it - Dave Tomlinson or Jim Hinter. Al Dorans and Andy Von Busse have been quite clear about how Dave Tomlinson's attitude, arrogance, and refusal to cooperate pretty much sabotaged numerous attempts to form a coalition among Canadian firearms owners' groups. Does Dave think that added to the reputation of the NFA? Whaddya say, Dave? Dave Tomlinson wrote the bylaws of the NFA. True, he did an incredibly crappy job for somebody who signs himself "NFA Legal". But the point is he knew exactly what those bylaws said, and what had to be done to amend them if they were no longer suitable as written. Yet Dave set up the arrangement which saw Jim Hinter receive a monthly salary and a Jeep SUV, paid for by membership dues received by the NFA. The NFA bylaws clearly state that an officer of the NFA will not profit directly OR indirectly from their position. Dave Tomlinson knew that under the bylaws he wrote, the arrangement he set up to financially reward Dave Hinter was both illegal AND fraudulent. Yes, fraudulent - does anybody seriously believe that Jim Hinter's workweek was spent on matters of Shop NFA as its' manager, rather than on whatever he was doing relating to the NFA? It would be fascinating to hear Dave Tomlinson justify his setting up a situation that violated the bylaws he wrote to fraudulently and illegally pay Jim Hinter when those same bylaws also provided a means to amend the bylaws in this area if a change was needed. It would be entertaining to hear Dave's thoughts on why he thinks his skullduggery and underhanded dealings with respect to paying Jim Hinter an illegal salary enhanced the NFA's reputation. Dave Tomlinson was told about the problems with the CCRA by concerned officers like Bob Lickacz long before the Directors were finally forced to take action and the whole mess became public - and Dave did nothing but support what Jim Hinter was doing. In fact, Dave said he already knew about the problems with the CCRA, the seizures of money, etc when he was approached about problems - but he obviously had decided that he needn't pass that information on to the man who was only the National Vice President (Finance). Does Dave think that hiding serious financial problems caused by the president he installed in office - including from the NVP(F) - did anything to improve the reputation of the NFA? Would you care to explain what was proper about that to Bob Lickacz, other officers who expressed concern, and the membership as a whole, Dave? According to their spokesman, Dave Tomlinson, with Jim Hinter's help, engineered the forming of the "Members' Advisory Committee". As the MAC Attack's official spokesman has already publicly said, the group was formed to give the illusion that members were having some input and to give rubberstamp approval to what Jim Hinter had been up to. Now it would be really entertaining to hear Dave Tomlinson rationally explain how his setting up a group whose fraudulent purpose was to whitewash wrongdoing by the National Executive and deceive members into thinking they had input and a fair review of events was a positive move for the NFA's reputation. During Dave Tomlinson's "investigation", he NEVER bothered to interview the office staff (perhaps he didn't want to hear what Dan could tell of Hinter's activities). He NEVER bothered to speak to the Directors regarding why they did what they did. And of course, he was all by himself without any witnesses while he was in Laycock's office busily finding evidence. I'm not sure how a one sided, prejudiced, deliberately one sided "investigation" such as the one Dave conducted enhances the NFA's reputation - but perhaps Dave can explain that to everyone. Personally, I think it makes the NFA look like a whacko group run by a bunch of cheesy little dictators whose ideas about fairness and democracy come right out of the old Soviet Union. Run a quick fake trial then have the kangaroo court sentence them. Then of course there's the matter of the donated rifle from Manitoba that disappeared once it was put in Jim Hinter's hands. We know the Manitoba Branch turned down an offer of $300 because the rifle was to be auctioned off on the Internet or wherever. Then Jim Hinter got it and it disappeared. Dave Tomlinson says that it was properly disposed of and he knows where it went - but he ain't saying. It isn't the members' business, and I guess it isn't the Manitoba Branch's business. The Manitoba Branch think otherwise, of course - the bylaws state VERY clearly that 60% of a donation goes back to the province it originated from. At this point, Dave Tomlinson pulls out his unwritten "God Rule" and says the bylaws about donations don't apply to donated rifles - because it is ridiculous to cut a rifle in two and give one piece to Manitoba and the other to the National Executive. What's really ridiculous, of course, is that Tomlinson would pull out that pathetic excuse when even a child could figure out that you split the proceeds of the auction - which is what the donor wanted in the first place. Maybe Dave could figure out a way to explain how the actions of he and Jim Hinter in cheating the Manitoba branch out of their share of that donation enhanced the reputation of the NFA? I doubt it - but give it your best shot, Dave. And Dave appears from time to time to make other pronouncements. Recently, he posted that he had received written apologies from some of the expelled directors, where they said they had acted because they had been deceived. I asked Dave for their names so I could ask them to let me know what they had been deceived about. Dave wouldn't give me their names - he said they "have already suffered enough embarassment". Well, there were only five people expelled, so it really wasn't that tough - I wrote each person to ask them if they were one of those who had apologized to Dave Tomlinson because they felt they had been deceived. Collectively - and in some cases in these exact words - all five of the expelled people said that if Dave Tomlinson was saying he received an apology from them, he was a damned liar. So, like Jim Hinter, Dave Tomlinson lies to the membership of the NFA. Let's see Dave Tomlinson explain how THAT kind of behavior on his part as the past president improves the reputation of the NFA. Think you can pull it off, Dave? And now, lately, we have Dave Tomlinson here saying Mr. Ross's email relating to the status of Jim Hinter as president "is, of course, false". Well, Dave Tomlinson is an expert on making false statements - about apologies and now about Mr. Ross's statement that Hinter is no longer the National President of the NFA. The facts are pretty clear. The president's term of office is for two years. Jim Hinter's term expired last month. There has been no election that saw him elected to another term. There is nothing in the bylaws that says Jim Hinter can stay in office as long as he and Dave Tomlinson feel, indefinitely - president for life or until resignation, in effect. It would be interesting to hear what mechanism Dave Tomlinson thinks exists that allows Jim Hinter to not hold elections on the president's position when they are scheduled by the bylaws and demanded by the courts. And to explain what mechanism allows Jim Hinter to remain in power after his two year term of office has expired. Is that "the God Rule" kicking in again? The bylaws are whatever Dave Tomlinson says they are at the moment? That aside, does Dave Tomlinson think that trying to keep his shyster Jim Hinter in office after his term of office has expired - and without the mandatory elections - enhances the reputation of the NFA? I think it makes Tomlinson, Hinter, and Butts look like the people who run banana republics, and doesn't do much for the reputation of the NFA - but maybe Dave Tomlinson can explain otherwise. AndIt's not just what Dave Tomlinson has done, but what he hasn't done. Did anybody hear from Dave Tomlinson when Jim Hinter was using his column in the Canadian Firearms Journal to lie to the entire NFA membership about what was happening in the NFA? No, Dave just sat there in silence and never said a thing - - unless, of course, Dave never reads the CFJ that contains a column of his own. Now how does remaining in silence while your handpicked replacement blatently lies to the membership do good things for the NFA's reputation? Dave Tomlinson has remained in silence while Jim Hinter as committed all sorts of abuses over the last two years - none of which positively improved the NFA's reputation. How did that silence help out the NFA's reputation? In the end, it's bitterly amusing to hear Dave Tomlinson accuse other people of knocking the NFA's reputation in the dirt. I don't think a dozen people, working together to think of how to do it, could do as much to damage the reputation of the NFA as either Dave Tomlinson or Jim Hinter have. The NFA doesn't have a reputation left to damage - and the NFA membership have Dave Tomlinson and Jim Hinter to thank for that. What reputation is left has been salvaged by the work of some of the provincial branches Over to you, Dave... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:29:04 -0600 (CST) From: AOB Subject: Another letter Thank you Mike. Edmonton Sun Saturday 21 September Letter of the Day. NEXT TIME you think about the Kyoto accord, remember that these are the same idiots who estimated the national gun registry would cost $5 million. It ended up at $500 million and did nothing to take guns away from criminals. However, now you can register your blow-dryer and electric drill as weapons Mike King (Not exactly weapons of choice.) "FREEDOM" For those who Fought, Bled and Died For It " FREEDOM " has a FLAVOR THE PROTECTED will Never Know or Savor. Anonymous ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:32:44 -0600 (CST) From: The Jordans Subject: VcrProv: Botched raid leaves family in shock Botched raid leaves family in shock Police 'apologize' for invading their home during east-end drug search Salim Jiwa - The Province Friday, September 20, 2002 PIC: The Province - Rowena Liu and dad Yat Wah Pang were victims of a botched raid that police have apologized for. Rowena Liu says she was scared to death when a small army of police officers put a gun to her head and handcuffed her in a botched marijuana raid on her 86-year-old father's east-end home. The police left an hour later after searching every room in the house -- and then told the 43-year-old Vancouver woman that someone had apparently supplied the wrong information. Her elderly dad was so shaken he has barely eaten in more than 24 hours since the raid, Liu said yesterday as she took a reporter around the neatly kept home. "Does it look to you like marijuana was being grown here?" she asked. Vancouver Police Const. Sarah Bloor has acknowledged that officers were acting on information and obtained a warrant to search the home and had made a mistake. She also confirmed they entered the home with guns drawn. "We apologize to the occupants," she said, adding that the police will formally apologize to the family. Bloor said officers had "reasonable and probable" grounds to believe the information was accurate and obtained a court warrant on that basis. Liu's question? "How come they don't obtain enough information before they come bursting into people's homes? Why pick on us if you don't have the right information? Can they search just because someone reports something?" The family plans to complain to the police. Liu said she was sitting in the downstairs living room of the home with her dad after returning from lunch with him when she saw squad cars piling up outside the home, which is owned by Liu and her brother. A niece who is an acupuncture student looks after the elderly man. Liu said she visits daily to make sure her dad is OK. "I don't live here. I had come to take dad for lunch and we were sitting here when I saw all these police cars outside," said the mother of two, who works as a housekeeper. "So I parted the drapes and I looked out and said to my dad, 'How come there are so many police cars outside.' " Liu said the officers were arriving with their hands on their guns and one put his gun against the window where she was looking outside. "They were banging on the door and I went and opened it," she said. "They put a gun to my head and handcuffed my hands behind my back and ordered me to sit down. They were very rough and they ordered my dad to sit down too." Liu sat handcuffed for more than an hour downstairs while officers rifled through their possessions. "Then they came downstairs and one policeman said someone reported there was marijuana growing here," she said. "He said we are sorry, we did not find any marijuana but someone reported that two days ago." They handed her a copy of the court-ordered search warrant and a calling card and left. "My dad . . . has not eaten much since this happened, Liu said. "I did not sleep at all last night." sjiwa@pacpress.southam.ca © Copyright 2002 The Province http://www.canada.com/vancouver/theprovince/story.asp?id={6D9CA53D-7C8B-4DB8-8B56-638A4BD89922} ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #65 ********************************* Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@shaw.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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