From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #327 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, November 28 2002 Volume 05 : Number 327 In this issue: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #323 Wasted time? [Fwd: News Release on Hunting Heritage] Crunched Submissions [none] What a batting average Post Editorial: Time to ditch the gun registry Column: Here's an update on Bill C-10. [none] `More Guns, Less Crime' Offline Globe: Gun registry to cost around $1-billion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:48:01 -0600 (CST) From: Al Muir Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #323 ED wrote > The members of the RFC are in my opinion, an intelligent and far-sighted > lot, they will have, had they not previous to this latest exchange of views, > determined where they stand, particularly given the amount of discussion and > debate on these matters over such a prolonged time. Agreed, now for the vote. JH or anybody but him. I vote anybody but him. That vote stands until May when my membership expires. After that, not being a member if he is not gone, I will not have a vote. Unfortunately that looks like the plan all along. They claim they are recruiting new members through ads in numerous outdoor publications. I recall suggesting they do that a couple of years ago on the NFA Digest. I did not however suggest that they get rid of all the old ones before bringing in the new. Al ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:46:36 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Lowe Subject: Wasted time? "Jim Thacker" said: > To the NFA folks > I must say that in reading Dorans and Lupichuk, Dorans gets my vote. The > only thing I would decry is the fact that all the time that it likely took > to compose both notes, and all the other notes responding to the internal > firearms community squabbles, could have been used to fight the real enemy, > the feds. Unfortunately, the fight is necessary. If anyone thought for one minute that simply not mentioning this disgusting situation would cause Hinter and Tomlinson to hold the required elections and provide the court ordered audits, it would be quiet as the surface of the moon right now. But they won't. They'll just take advantage of it with even more outrageous behavior. And so, people have to keep bringing it up and repudiating the unending flow of lies and dishonesty flowing out of the NFA National Bunker located somewhere inEdmonton. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 00:18:20 -0600 (CST) From: Michael Ackermann Subject: [Fwd: News Release on Hunting Heritage] Ron, Please read the attached letter. Do we have anyone in Nova Scotia working on a Hunting and Shooting Sports Heritage Act for us? If not, how would I start the ball rolling? I would like to see an Act to protect the traditional sports of Hunting, Fishing, Recreational Shooting, and Archery in Nova Scotia. I would include a section to protect shooting ranges from closure caused by developers moving into their safety templates. In several states, if a developer wants to build in the safety template of a range, then that developer must pay for any upgrades to the range to keep it open at its original level of activity. In addition, ranges are protected against closure for noise levels. If they can do it, why not us? Thanks for your attention in this matter. - -Mike - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) President, St. Mary's Shooters Association Box 3, RR 1, 4132 Sonora Rd. Sherbrooke, NS Canada B0J 3C0 902-522-2172 My email: mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca SMSA URL: www.smsa.ca "Hope for the best, but plan for the worst". - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 00:23:34 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Lowe Subject: Crunched Submissions I see my latest postings has had all the blank lines deliniating paragraphs removed from it. Without blank lines to separate paragraphs, messages longer than a paragraph or two become increasingly unreadable. I have no complaint toward the volunteers who administer this email list, but problems like this which keep cropping up are frustrating to say the least. Moderator: sorry Rick. Howard was working on that as late as this afternoon. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 00:31:38 -0600 (CST) From: Michael Ackermann Subject: [none] Subject: Kudos Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Michael Taube Windsor Star Sir, This note is to thank and congratulate you for an excellent article on the Myths of Gun Control. If you ever have the desire for some first-hand experience of the shooting sports, I invite you to call any local gun club and you will be greeted warmly and shown a good time. I guarantee it. If you are ever in my neck of the woods, call me and I will be happy to take you to our range for a BBQ, safety course, range time and to meet the fine folks who love this lifestyle called the RFC (Responsible Firearms Community). There are lots of links to tons of info on our website ( www.smsa.ca ) and in particular, may I direct you to this collage of summer photos: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mikeack/Recent_Events.htm Thank you once again, from the bottoms of our hearts! - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) President, St. Mary's Shooters Association Box 3, RR 1, 4132 Sonora Rd. Sherbrooke, NS Canada B0J 3C0 902-522-2172 My email: mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca SMSA URL: www.smsa.ca "Hope for the best, but plan for the worst". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 00:47:47 -0600 (CST) From: Lee Jasper Subject: What a batting average Thanks to another Breitkreuz-Young ATIA expose',, , it was gratifying to learn that over 35,000 honest, law abiding, gun owning citizens were able to successfully clear the hurdles placed in their way to gain alternate certification, or CFS course and test-free PALs. Much of the thanks for this goes to the CFO/AFO in SK who issued 28,575 alt cert certificates needed to obtain a PAL. (Bring this public servant to Ontario). I understand a good number of these owners were probably First Nations and only needed to complete a PAL application and obtain the notarization of an elder or chief. (I wonder if certain SK MPs had an influence, here)? I wonder if Justice Beaudry knew this when he trashed the AFIN request for an injunction? I note that the great bastions of Grit head-butters, AB and ON granted 178 and 241 alt certed PALs via their own fraudulent (based on the statistics I have obtained) quickie oral tests. Go figure, Klein and Harris promised their gun owning supporters of their undying support - but delivered a sucker punch not even envisioned by Allan Rock. (Many politicos claimed that Ontario was pivotal to the success of the registry). I wonder how many gun owners took unnecessary courses and exams that were not part of the federal scheme. This was money, time and energy better spent on more productive things. And how many gun owners simply cashed in their chips? Even MB (82) and QC (1,171) who grandfathered all their Hunter Ed grads into PALs, together, alt certed about 3 times the number of gun owners as ON and AB. I can assure all that I corresponded with most RFC groups in Canada about this, provided all the detail - but few were willing to dance on the head of this pin. Don't know of any who corrected their web sites or promoted the legal scam. Can you believe, I was advised by one sage that it was better to have more peeved off gun owners - and even better to have them blaming the wrong government for their problem? With this kind of confusion, how can you expect to win at political warfare? Pity, it would have dramatically escalated the costs of the universal licencing/registry and by its shear logistical consequences may have actually 'sank' the C-68 Titanic. It may also have also caused more provinces to opt-out of the registry, and sooner. According to my small surveys it also would have served to resolve the legal double jeopardy cloud that hovers over many gun owners. An awful lot of people simply buried their heads and believed the registry would truly crash. (Who says a government will/must withdraw legislation because it won't work)? Meanwhile in Ontario, many wait to see the response from Eves and Runciman to my latest '28 reasons' to amnesty the balance of the province's gun owners into PALs. I won't mention other key 'pro-gun' Ministers who refuse to talk about it. (I hear the issue in the PC caucus is the complaints they expect to hear from the many thousands of loyal gun owners who unnecessarily took courses and paid for tests). Do they refund these monies? The Tronna urbanites and 416 and 905 voters wouldn't like the idea of their tax dollars going to northern and rural gun owners. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 08:50:17 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Post Editorial: Time to ditch the gun registry PUBLICATION: National Post DATE: 2002.11.28 EDITION: National SECTION: Editorials PAGE: A23 SOURCE: National PostCanada - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Time to ditch the gun registry - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Toronto's recent wave of street murders -- more than 40 since the beginning of 2001 -- debunks the claim that Ottawa's gun registry is making Canadians safer from crime. As the price tag for this colossal bureaucratic mess nears $1-billion, it is clearly time for the federal government to consider shutting it down and redirecting some or all of the resources to real crime-fighting measures. Nearly all of the Toronto murders have been committed with handguns. Yet handguns have been subject to registration in Canada since 1934. In fact, registration has done nothing to stem the use of handguns in murder: In the past 15 years, the proportion of all firearm murders committed with handguns has nearly doubled in Canada from just over one-third to nearly two-thirds. Pistols are easily concealed. That makes them the weapon of choice for gang members and drug dealers -- the two groups responsible for most of the Toronto shootings. Smuggling from the United States is the source of most of the handguns used in Canadian murders -- up to 90% according to the Ontario Provincial Police. Even if a national registry could produce information useful in preventing crimes -- or even just solving them -- it would be at a loss to produce it on nine of 10 handguns used in Canadian murders, since those guns would not have been registered in the first place. Since the registry opened its doors (or at least its database) four years ago this week, overall firearms homicides are up more than 13%. If the rate had instead declined 13%, you can bet the Liberals would have been broadcasting their "success" far and wide. We believe they should be held to account for their "failure" just as vigorously. While the licensing process for gun owners (as distinct from the process for registering individual guns) was initially turning down more potentially unfit owners than the old Firearms Acquisition Certificates program, the Liberals' haste to boost the number of licensed owners caused them to forgo meaningful background checks on hundreds of thousands of applicants in late 2000 and early 2001. As a result, the rate of refusals and revocations for the new licensing scheme is half that of the old FAC system. How can the new program be making Canada safer if it is turning away only half as many risky owners as the old one? Finally, the cost of the registry has skyrocketed out of all proportion to the potential benefits, if there were any. By the end of this year, according to Treasury Board reports and budget estimates, the Liberals will have poured $875-million into this sinkhole, with no end in sight and no lives saved. Putting Ottawa's highly skewed priorities on full display, the Department of Justice also expects to spend eight times more on registering duck hunters' shotguns than it will on counterterrorism. At best the registry is useless, but harmless. But to the extent that it is diverting resources and police officers from real security matters, it ismore of a threat to Canadians' safety than no registry at all. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 08:51:05 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Column: Here's an update on Bill C-10. PUBLICATION: The Toronto Sun DATE: 2002.11.28 EDITION: Final SECTION: Sports PAGE: 124 SOURCE: BY JOHN KERR COLUMN: Outdoors Here's an update on Bill C-10. The bill passed second reading in the Senate last week after lengthy debate - -- mirroring House of Commons concerns it could leave hunters, anglers, farmers and medical researchers open to charges of animal cruelty -- and was sent to the Standing Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs for review. In a rare move, the Senate passed another motion to instruct the committee to split the bill and deal separately with its Firearms Act and animal-cruelty changes -- an agreement apparently made earlier with the government side of the chamber. Obviously, it wants to move the bill along. With both the House and Senate slated to rise before Christmas for winter break, however, sources say the controversial animal-cruelty legislation could be stalled in committee until next year. What must pass soon, however, or there will be problems for the government's beloved gun-control program on Jan. 1, are the Firearm Act changes, which include establishing a Commissioner of Firearms and grandfathering ownership of some pre-1998 handguns (now banned). They received little attention or comment in the House or the Senate, although some politicians questioned why there was a need for another high-paid bureaucrat. Greg Farrant, government relations manager for the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters (OFAH), said the firearms community had given general support earlier to the Firearms Act changes. With the bill split, they could be pushed more quickly through the Senate. PAY ATTENTION Ironically, sources say the Liberal government expected the Firearms Act changes to cause the biggest ruckus, yet it's the animal-cruelty law changes that have seen growing concern and opposition, even among Liberal backbenchers. They should have payed more attention before they voted to pass the bill in the House of Commons last spring. Farrant says OFAH supports the bill's increased fines and penalties for unnecessary animal cruelty, but they could have been done through simple amendments to existing legislation. The group wants the the broad definition of an animal left out of the bill and "lawful and reasonable excuse" clauses reinstated -- the same changes many MPPs and Senators are calling for. Let's hope the Senate committee is successful at convincing the government to make them. The issue has been dragging on, held hostage by animal-rights groups that won't settle for clear, concise legislation that would more strongly penalize people who mistreat animals, while giving continued legal protection to accepted practices. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 08:51:41 -0600 (CST) From: Lee Jasper Subject: [none] Yup,, , , all we need to hear is 'we screwed up'. Following along Professor Dorans' commentary and with additions from Dr. Thacker, and others, that's all we need to hear. Some small admission that the 'pig's in the fire'. And some small accounting of the state of the ark. The one comment that was not offered, of course, was that there was one, and only one, action that was critically needed during the period that the initial cloud was suspended over the NFA's head. Sheila Copps was the fitting example of what had to be done. But no, individual personal goals took precedent over the welfare of the organization and its constituents. How the West was lost! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 08:51:41 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Gingrich Subject: `More Guns, Less Crime' PAUL CRESPO `More Guns, Less Crime' According to some, guns have no purpose other than killing and should be tightly controlled. To them, more guns invariably lead to more crime and violence. Sounds good at first glance, except that the facts don't support the theory. Were this true, peaceful, multicultural Switzerland, where virtually every household has an automatic assault rifle and hundreds of rounds of ammunition, should be the most violent country on Earth. With gun-control legislation efforts stalled nationally, some anti-gun activists have instead focused their well-intentioned efforts on the civil courts under the guise of gun-safety. A Florida jury recently decided a $1.2 million judgment against a gun distributor for what jurors considered the distributor's partial (5 percent) culpability in a murder involving one of its handguns. Jurors blamed the distributor for failing to provide an external lock, something that is not required by law (the pistol did have an internal safety to prevent accidental firing). This sympathy verdict was an American first. Many expect the decision to be reversed on appeal. The use of this questionable product liability/safety litigation against gun companies raises some interesting legal issues. More important, though, is the belief that guns serve no valid purpose and, if owned at all, should be under constant lock and key. Firearms, therefore, should be controlled in Draconian ways that automobiles, which daily kill scores more innocent people than do guns, are not. To anti-gun activists, cars have a utilitarian purpose that guns don't; so there is little talk of regulating car sales or restricting their ownership. To these activists, the only apparent use for guns is for target shooting or hunting, which are ''trivial'' hobbies. Hence, the focus on gun crimes and accidents. The national media may inadvertently help perpetuate the focus on guns by ignoring, for the most part, the tens of thousands of tragic car and other accidents annually, while reporting the far-less numerous gun incidents. This provides an emotionally wrenching but often skewed reality. TO DETER CRIME Fortunately, tens of millions of legitimate gun owners in America (roughly half the households in the country) know that guns serve a useful purpose. Well-documented studies support the view that guns are used much more often to prevent and deter crimes and save lives than by criminals or in accidents. But since these incidents are not crimes, they rarely get cataloged, much less reported. Also, a significant percentage of violent gun crimes in America are committed by repeat offenders often using the same small pool of illegal black-market guns. In his book More Guns, Less Crime, Yale economics Professor John Lott describes the results of what is probably the most comprehensive study on the subject. He concludes that, on average, violent crime dropped 4 percent for each 1 percent increase in legitimate gun ownership in America. States that allowed individuals to carry concealed handguns had an even greater drop in crime rates -- especially killings and violent crimes. Florida is one such state. A BRUTAL MURDER As for the idea that guns should be sold at least with locks and kept stored for safety, there is an important trade-off to consider. The brutal Aug. 23, 2000, Carpenter family multiple-murder in Merced, Calif., is a case in point. Here two young children were slaughtered by an intruder with a pitchfork while the parents were away. One of the surviving children, 14-year-old Jessica, who had been taught to shoot by her father, was unable to protect her siblings. The father's guns, pursuant to California safe-storage laws, were kept unloaded and inaccessible to the children. Had Jessica been able to reach a loaded weapon, she may have saved her little brother and sister. Unfortunately, this part of the story wasn't reported. Rather it was presented simply as an unavoidable tragedy. As with automobile safety, the gun issue needs to be evaluated rationally rather than emotionally. On balance, our Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms provides us more benefits than dangers. We should tread on it carefully. pcrespo@herald.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 08:51:43 -0600 (CST) From: Michael Ackermann Subject: Offline I'll be off line X 4 days. - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) President, St. Mary's Shooters Association Box 3, RR 1, 4132 Sonora Rd. Sherbrooke, NS Canada B0J 3C0 902-522-2172 My email: mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca SMSA URL: www.smsa.ca "Hope for the best, but plan for the worst". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 08:59:25 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Globe: Gun registry to cost around $1-billion PUBLICATION GLOBE AND MAIL DATE: THU NOV.28,2002 PAGE: A6 BYLINE: KIM LUNMAN CLASS: National News EDITION: Metro DATELINE: Ottawa ON - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Gun registry to cost around $1-billion - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Canada's firearms registry will likely cost taxpayers more than $1-billion by 2005 -- more than 10 times the amount the Liberal government said it would spend on the controversial gun-control program. Treasury Board officials expressed concern about the rising costs of the national registry for firearms at a meeting of the Senate committee on national finance. Richard Neville, deputy comptroller of the Treasury Board Secretariat, told the committee this week that "there is a strong possibility that the final costs" of the firearms registry could be around $1-billion. He made the remarks under questioning from senators who wanted to know why the Department of Justice is requiring an additional $72-million to administer the program that implements the government's tough gun-control laws passed in 1995. Former justice minister Allan Rock said the national firearms registry would cost taxpayers a total of $85-million when Bill C-68 became law seven years ago. Mr. Neville told the committee members that it is expected that the government will have spent $810.8-million on the program by the end of 2002-2003. Among the costs was $29-million for communications and public affairs, which includes advertising. The central processing site in Miramichi received $59-million while the RCMP received $64-million. "From the Treasury Board Secretariat perspective, we are very concerned about this file," Mr. Neville told the committee when asked about the cost overruns. The cost of the national firearms registry is expected be scrutinized in the Auditor-General's report, to be released next Tuesday. But Senator Anne Cools, a Liberal member of the Senate's finance committee, said she wants answers from Justice Minister Martin Cauchon. "Something is very wrong," she said in an interview yesterday. "There has been no accountability. We still have no idea why it has cost so much and why it has ballooned." The government is hoping to pass Bill C-10 (a), which amends the Firearms Act, before the end of the year. Among other things, the bill would create a national firearms commissioner and stagger licence renewals. All Canadian gun owners must have their firearms registered by Jan. 1, 2003. But gun-control advocates have defended the program, saying what it will save by preventing crimes involving guns will far outweigh the spending overrun. The price tag Officials estimate the gun registry will cost $810.8-million by 2002-2003. So far, $688-million has been spent. A partial breakdown: * Program administration: $66-million; * Communications, public affairs and advertising: $29-million; * Outreach program: $15-million; * Safety training: $9-million; * Licensing and registration datadate: $227-million. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #327 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@shaw.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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