From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #346 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, December 3 2002 Volume 05 : Number 346 In this issue: Fw: Police stand idly by waiting for a Bank Robbery to happen.....Can you believe it...?! Published Six-month "grace period" LETTERS TO THE EDITOR Keep hunting and trapping out of parks,= wildlife reserves Re: concealed ammo GUN REGISTRY TOPS $1B? AUDITOR TO RELEASE 'TRUE COSTS' Auditor general targets massive cost overrun of gun registry No guns for our airline pilots: Collenette Natives given free bullets: Gun licences not required: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 20:35:16 -0600 (CST) From: Ed Tait Subject: Fw: Police stand idly by waiting for a Bank Robbery to happen.....Can you believe it...?! I wrote a letter today and sent it out....(copy follows) If anyone sees it published, I'd appreciate hearing from you. Ed Tait Victoria - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Tait" Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 6:23 PM Subject: Police stand idly by waiting for a Bank Robbery to happen.....Can you believe it...?! I've just read an incredible tale.... Apparently fourteen Ottawa Police officers had for some days a group of men they knew to be dangerous career criminals and whom they suspected had been robbing banks in the area, under survellance. So, imagine this.... The Police watch while the 'bad guys' load up their illegal firearms, (I'm pretty sure they won't have registered them...!) they follow them downtown and then they sit on their hands while the three rob the bank at gunpoint. And it gets better, fourteen policemen, in four police cars and an airplane, are watching three known criminals, while the robbery is happening, they have them surrounded and still they let one of the robbers get away...! In case you don't believe me, (I didn't believe it myself...!) the three robbed the Scotiabank at 1090 Baxter Rd. in Ottawa, last Thursday. It sure seems to me that the police were more interested in making an arrest for bank robbery than stopping the bank robbery from happening. What would they have said if the robbers had killed a few bank employees or customers during the robbery...? Oh, we're very sorry, we couldn't interfere until they actually robbed the bank. Pretty much tells the story of why the public needs the right to defend themselves, the police not only won't do it, they don't seem as if they can do it, even if they are there...! So why is the government disarming us with more and more gun control and advertising the fact we are defenceless to al the bad guys...? It seems that in every paper, every day now, you see another article with the government touting how they have spent one Billion dollars so far on their new gun registry. Seems like we are getting less safe, not more. In any case, if you can help the Ottawa police find the bad guy who got away, (he is white,six feet tall and 215 pounds with thinning hair and is wanted for seven counts of robbery, possession of firearms and stolen property. The Ottawa police need your help and are waiting for your call. Edwin B. Tait, 4462 Tyndall Avenue, VICTORIA, B.C. Canada V8T 3S1 Telephone: 1 250 721-5704 : ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 20:39:50 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Hill Subject: Published PUBLICATION: The Halifax Daily News DATE: 2002.12.02 EDITION: DAILY SECTION: OPINION PAGE: 14 - - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- - - ---- LETTERS: What is hockey without fighting? - - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- - - ---- This is the 4th time this has been published that I know of two papers in Calgary and two here in Halifax. I sent it to 14 papers using the bcc format. all the NB papers addresses came back as undeliverable. The bcc format seems to work well. Jim Hill Gun registry a farce To the editor: We have all listened to government ministers and Canadian Firearms Centre spokespersons tell us what a wonderful thing the new gun-control act was going to be. They said the police would be able to track firearms used in offences, though I am a little fuzzy on how a person gets the serial number from a firearm that is pointed at him in order to supply it to the police. All that aside, there is the fact that the police, en route to a call, can query whether there are firearms at that location. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 21:00:39 -0600 (CST) From: "Gordon Hamre" Subject: Six-month "grace period" k IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Gun owners tangled in red tape get reprieve: Six-month 'grace period' not an extension: minister - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The federal government has given firearms owners a six-month "grace period" to receive their gun-registration papers next year if they register the weapons by the Jan. 1, 2003, deadline. In announcing the grace period yesterday, Justice Minister Martin Cauchon said the Canadian Firearms Centre expects a flood of registrations as the deadline nears. "This is part of the government's commitment to ensure that law-abiding citizens are not penalized," Mr. Cauchon said. He added the grace period is not an extension of the registration deadline, but rather "protection from criminal liability for those who have complied with the law." etc... ******************************************************* Can anyone explain what legal instrument was used by government to put in place a six-month "grace period"? How was the Minister able to do this? Can he simply decide not to enforce the law? G. Hamre Yellowknife D ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 21:26:29 -0600 (CST) From: "Paul Chicoine" Subject: LETTERS TO THE EDITOR Keep hunting and trapping out of parks,= wildlife reserves http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/letters/story.asp?id=3D{2EFA8= 23 3-17A2-454D-A469-3CA09AA29BFA} LETTERS TO THE EDITOR Keep hunting and trapping out of parks, wildlife reserves The Gazette Monday, December 02, 2002 Your Nov. 22 article on the current management practices of wildlife reserves by La Soci=E9t=E9 de la Faune et du Parcs du Qu=E9bec claimed that= parks and wildlife reserves constitute 2.9 per cent of the land mass. In fact, this figure refers to all lands that have a protected designation and not just parks and wildlife reserves, which make up .084 per cent. The Environment Department's director of ecological heritage and sustainable development, Leopold Gaudreau, said he could not give a figure on how many wildlife reserves permitted hunting and trapping. The answer is all 16 of them. The article also quoted Mr. Gaudreau as saying, "For us, this activity is permitted, managed and perfectly legal, so it is not a problem." Mr. Gaudreau missed the point. Wildlife reserves were originally established to protect species and habitat. By international standards, they are exploitation-free zones. Hunting and trapping are activities that have no basis in conservation and are incompatible with species-conservation objectives. Bill 61 legalized these activities, thus subverting the original purpose of wildlife reserves. The Sierra Club is calling for the repeal of Bill 61 so that current and future wildlife reserves will serve the purpose of protecting biodiversity. The most basic principle in preserving species is providing safe habitat. An important point not mentioned in the article is that these public lands have, in effect, been privatized to individuals (often current and former employees of FAPAQ or their relatives) and private hunting and trapping organizations. These individuals and groups have exclusive use rights. They are authorized to keep the public out of their land concession areas during hunting and trapping seasons. Protected designated regions should comply with international standards of conservation and implement policies consistent with these objectives. In a democratic society, the government has an obligation to reflect the view of the majority, not cater to special minority interest groups. Ray Raymon Quebec Group Chairman National Conservation Committee, Sierra Club of Canada Stanstead letters@thegazette.southam.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 23:15:24 -0600 (CST) From: "Yanni's Marine" Subject: Re: concealed ammo That is called (illegal) possession without a licence Yanni www.yannismarine.ca - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Sieb" To: Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 9:25 PM Subject: RE: concealed ammo > ross wrote: > > > Recently a moron had a 9mm pistol in his car got caught drunk > > driving and the police caught it all. 31 rds etc loaded hi cap mags.. > > he was charge with "concealing prohibited ammunition, " > > > > When has there been a charge of concealing prohibited ammunition??? > > Isn't it prohibited, if one doesn't have an FAC or PAL? > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:43:35 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: GUN REGISTRY TOPS $1B? AUDITOR TO RELEASE 'TRUE COSTS' NOTE: Versions of this story also appeared in: The Ottawa Sun, The Calgary Sun, The London Free Press, PUBLICATION: The Toronto Sun DATE: 2002.12.03 EDITION: Final SECTION: News PAGE: 2 ILLUSTRATION: 1. photo of SHEILA FRASER Results today 2. photo of GARRY "Boondoggle" SOURCE: BY MARIA MCCLINTOCK, OTTAWA BUREAU DATELINE: OTTAWA - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- GUN REGISTRY TOPS $1B? AUDITOR TO RELEASE 'TRUE COSTS' - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- The real costs of the controversial national gun registry program will be revealed today by Auditor General Sheila Fraser. It's the first time the price tag of the seven-year-old program has been detailed. Canadian Alliance MP Garry , who has been battling the federal government since it implemented the program in 1995, expects Fraser's report will show the cost to be quickly reaching the $1-billion mark. "This has been a huge boondoggle for the government, and we're not getting anything that is helping public safety, or helping the police, in any way, to reducing crime," he said. "(Fraser) has committed to uncovering the true costs of the gun registry ... I know that (the costs) have gone 12 or 13 times over budget with what I've been able to uncover." has attempted to get at the costs of the gun registry and has filed more than 250 Access to Information applications. In the Commons yesterday, asked the government to explain how it was going to get all Canadians to register their guns when new justice department figures show there's a backlog of 134,000 applications. AMNESTY Liberal MP Harold Macklin, who was standing in for Justice Minister Martin Cauchon, said the minister announced a six-month amnesty last week so Canadians who filed their applications before the Dec. 31 deadline wouldn't have to be in possession of their certificates until June 30, 2003. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:43:39 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Auditor general targets massive cost overrun of gun registry NOTE: Versions of this articles also appeared in: The Kingston Whig-Standard, and The Edmonton Journal, PUBLICATION: Times Colonist (Victoria) DATE: 2002.12.03 EDITION: Final SECTION: News PAGE: A3 BYLINE: Louise Elliott SOURCE: The Canadian Press DATELINE: OTTAWA ILLUSTRATION: Photo: Sheila Fraser: Reports today - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Auditor general targets massive cost overrun of gun registry - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- OTTAWA -- Auditor General Sheila Fraser has examined for the first time the massive cost overrun of the federal gun registry and will report on her findings today. The amount spent on the controversial federal program established in 1995 -- expected to reach $1 billion by 2004 -- is more than 10 times its original price tag, critics complain. The cost to taxpayers of the registry, introduced to help stem gun violence, has never been examined by the auditor general, despite early calls for an investigation from critics and users of the system. "Clearly something has gone wrong," Canadian Alliance MP Garry , a longtime registry critic, said Monday. "The justice department can simply go to the (Treasury Board) and keep getting more money, and I'm saying there's something wrong with this whole scenario for what we're getting -- we're not getting anything in return for this." Instead of the $85-million cost originally promised by then-justice minister Allan Rock in 1995 for full implementation, the program will likely cost $800 million by the end of the 2002-2003 fiscal year, said David Austin, a spokesman for the Canadian Firearms Centre. And the cost of the registry is expected to rise again, to $1 billion by 2005, according to Treasury Board estimates presented last week. By Breitkreuz's calculations, the cost will reach $1.24 billion by 2004. All firearms were to be registered under the program by Jan. 1, 2003, but Justice Minister Martin Cauchon last week extended that deadline, granting gun-owners a six-month grace period. said he hopes Fraser's report points to the costs incurred by departments other than justice -- costs he has had trouble uncovering. Those departments include Human Resources Development, Indian Affairs, Citizenship and Immigration, the Attorney General, and the office of the privacy commissioner. "The Attorney General's department I'm sure would have some costs because of the RCMP, so I'd like some idea how many RCMP officers have been working on this. I can't get that information," said. Fraser will only report on the costs of the firearms centre today, not on the program's effectiveness. Critics have said the crime rate continues to rise despite the registration of some five million guns. They argue the registry won't catch criminals who are unlikely to register their guns, and won't be of use to police. Some observers argue the statistics can't be used to argue for or against the gun registry, saying the numbers are not clearly linked to a cause-effect relationship. Gun control advocates say it's too soon to assess the effects of the registry. The government is seeking to pass Bill C-10 to amend the Firearms Act, now before the Senate, before the end of the year, which would create a national firearms commissioner. To date, more than 2.1 million of the 2.3 million gun owners have firearms licences, officials estimate. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:43:38 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: No guns for our airline pilots: Collenette PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 2002.12.03 EDITION: Final SECTION: News PAGE: A1 / Front BYLINE: Glen McGregor SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- No guns for our airline pilots: Collenette firmly shoots down idea of arming crews to deter terrorists - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Transport Minister David Collenette yesterday doused any possibility of arming Canadian airline pilots and said he is concerned about U.S. pilots flying into Canada carrying guns. Under a law that came into force last month, American pilots will be allowed to carry in the cockpit on a voluntary basis, once they are properly trained and certified. The rule also applies to international routes, which means pilots could be armed on flights arriving in Canada from the U.S. But Mr. Collenette says that there are "cultural differences" between the U.S. and Canada over guns and says he stands "totally opposed" to putting pistols in pilots' hands. "We want that individual to focus on being a pilot, not a law enforcement officer," Mr. Collenette said during testimony before a Senate committee studying airline security. "What's the next step, arming bus drivers, subway drivers, taxi drivers? Pretty soon we're going to end up with a regime very much like our American friends. I would say we have a better society here because we have stricter gun enforcement laws." But Mr. Collenette will have to address the topic in discussions with counterparts in the U.S. administration because of the border issues the new law creates. Currently, peace officers from the U.S. -- including the undercover air marshals -- can carry weapons into Canada under a memo-of-understanding, but Mr. Collenette said he does not consider pilots to be peace officers. He says Transport Canada will have to negotiate an agreement with the U.S. Transportation Security Administration, which will run the program. "We cannot prevent U.S. carriers from having pilots that are armed flying over Canada or to Canada," he said. "But the moment that plane lands on Canadian soil, the plane and crew are subject to Canadian law." But the lobby group that led the drive to arm pilots in the U.S. says it believes that pilots could be included under existing agreements because the pilots who volunteer for the program will become deputized as federal flight deck officers under the same jurisdiction as air marshals. "We would anticipate the same sort of requirements for our federal air marshals would apply to our pilots as well," said Capt. Marc Feigenblatt of the Airline Pilots Security Alliance. Provisions could also be made to have the pilots stow their weapons either in an airport armoury or in a locked safe in the aircraft, as air marshals currently do in some countries, Capt. Feigenblatt said. The pilots will likely be carrying heavy artillery when they come: There are two weapons under consideration for use -- the SigSauer P229, a .357 pistol currently used by air marshals, and the Glock 23, a .40 calibre pistol popular in police forces. Capt. Feigenblatt estimates as many as 60 per cent of all U.S. pilots will volunteer for the program. With two pilots flying most aircraft, that percentage will put a gun in every cockpit on average. The level of support appears weaker among Canadian aviators. The Air Canada Pilots Association recently polled its members and found that a majority did not want guns. But many felt they would like to have the option of carrying non-lethal weapons such as Tasers, which discharge an incapacitating but harmless electric shock. The union would prefer to see a double-door system installed in cockpits to keep intruders out. The other major pilots union, the Canadian wing of the Air Line Pilots Association, is also lukewarm to the idea. "In Canada we don't feel this is an issue culturally, nor security-wise is it a requirement," said ALPA's Art Laflamme. "It's not something we're pursuing right now." In his testimony to the Senate committee on National Security and Defence, Mr. Collenette noted that he had also shown similarly strong opposition to the idea of Canadian air marshals program in the weeks following the terrorist strikes on the U.S. But Canada was forced by the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration to start putting armed RCMP officers on flights into Reagan National Airport in Washington, D.C., and the program was later expanded to other select international and domestic flights originating in Canada. "In a civil society, surely we should be ensuring the security is tough so (terrorists) don't get on planes and objects don't get stowed and the cockpit is secure," he said yesterday. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:43:45 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Natives given free bullets: Gun licences not required: NOTE: Versions of this article also appeared in: The Ottawa Citizen, The Vancouver Sun, The Edmonton Journal, PUBLICATION: National Post DATE: 2002.12.03 EDITION: National SECTION: Canada PAGE: A4 BYLINE: Tim Naumetz SOURCE: Southam News DATELINE: OTTAWA - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Natives given free bullets: Gun licences not required: Disproportionately high number of aboriginals involved in homicides - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- OTTAWA - The federal government is handing out free ammunition on First Nation reserves even though the aboriginal rate of involvement in homicide is seven times higher than the national average, documents show. Indian Affairs records show the department distributed more than 4,000 rounds of rifle and shotgun ammunition to four First Nation reserves in northern British Columbia and Alberta this year and more than 3,000 rounds of ammunition the previous year to bands in Manitoba. Under Firearms Act exemptions that reflect treaty obligations and native rights, the First Nation members who get the ammunition do not require licences otherwise needed to obtain ammunition or firearms in Canada, federal officials say. The government is required to furnish the aboriginal bands with hunting ammunition and twine or fishing nets annually under several treaties signed by representatives of the British Crown in the past century. The First Nations may also ask for cash payments instead of the ammunition or other equipment, say documents obtained by Canadian Alliance MP Garry . While most bands have chosen cash in lieu of ammunition and twine or nets, the Saulteau, Fort Nelson, Prophet River and Doig River bands in the region of Fort St. John this year chose ammunition. Several bands in Manitoba also received ammunition. At least one band in Saskatchewan has requested ammunition as its treaty allotment this year, a federal official said. The ammunition consists primarily of such high-calibre shells as .308, .303 and .3030, which are used for hunting such game animals as deer and moose, and .12-gauge shotgun shells for hunting fowl. The department also distributed large quantities of smaller-calibre .22 shells. The documents show band officials can hand out the ammunition to members who do not have firearms licences required elsewhere for the purchase of firearms and ammunition. The exemption applies only to aboriginals receiving ammunition in fulfilment of treaty obligations. Mr. has challenged the government to explain the distribution of so much ammunition to First Nation bands without enforcing a Firearms Act requirement that anyone buying ammunition must also hold a valid firearms ownership licence or firearms ownership and acquisition licence. The Alliance MP, whose officials released documents yesterday pointing to an alarming rate of homicide involvement among aboriginals, said he expects Auditor-General Sheila Fraser to reveal dramatic evidence today that the firearms registration and licensing system is hopelessly over budget. Mr. said he has calculated the program has cost taxpayers $800-million since the Liberal government began work on it in 1995, with the bulk of the money spent over the past four years. A Treasury Board official recently told a Senate committee the bill is expected to total $1- billion by 2005. Mr. Breitkreuz's office released figures obtained from the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics that show the number of homicides involving firearms has remained steady at about one-third of all homicides. The statistics show that while aboriginals account for only 3% of the country's population, or about one million people, they comprised at least 25% of all persons accused of committing homicide in 2001. The figure does not include incidents where police services did not collect or report information on aboriginal status, so the actual percentage of homicide involvement by aboriginals may be higher. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #346 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@shaw.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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