From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #359 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, December 5 2002 Volume 05 : Number 359 In this issue: [none] JUSTICE MINISTER CHARGED WITH CONTEMPT OF PARLIAMENT Gun registry hasn't 'saved lives': police: "What previous justice ministers said about the cost of the gun r egistry" LETTERS TO THE EDITOR: No evidence gun registration works Feeding Frenzy Just say NO!! Call your MP today. CPAC Online Poll submitted letter to the editor ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:48:57 -0600 (CST) From: Vulcun1isback@aol.com Subject: [none] In a message dated 12/4/2002 10:18:41 AM Central Standard Time, owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca writes: > David Austin, spokesman for the centre, said about 70 per cent of the 1.8 > million licensed firearm owners across Canada have registered their weapons > under legislation passed in 1998. The final deadline for registration is > Jan. 1, 2003. Oh...Now it's 1.8 Million gun owners in Canada huh ? ..what happened to 2.3 Million, and before that 3 point somthing million ? .... Dave Austin should have been a used car salesman !! > > Austin said about 200,000 Canadians have registered online, which is a free > > service. (you keep plugging it Dave - that's it ) > > "You can register guns online for free ( He said that already !! - Gee the > desperation is really showing Dave, - see I told you he should have been a > used car salesman) (Austin) and you can do that up to midnight, (the only part Dave is missing is the "But Hurray this is a limited time offer" ) > > Dec. 31," said Austin. "You can do it any time day or night (by registering > online)." Owners registering by mail must pay a one-time fee of $18 per > envelope. But if you register before midnight ONLINE.... CFC Financing will allow you to keep your guns with Zero down,Zero First month payment, and Zero per cent financing - but remember, you must Register by midnight Dec.31st. because this is a limited time offer !! > > A report issued last August by GPC Research showed there were about 7.9 > million firearms in Canada. GPC of course stands for GUN PROPANGANDA COUNCIL - Why is there never any source of information released when these "studies" commmissioned by the Government are done ? ... How do they know positively that there are only 7.9 million guns ? > Austin said the number of guns in Alberta is estimated to be about 720,000. > > (TSK,TSK Dave- you should have consulted GPC on that one- I guess it's > back to the used Car lot for you !! .... and if the estimations on cost regarding the Gun Registry are any indication of how well the Government estimates things- you can multiply that number times 10. ) > The report also indicated the ratio in Alberta is one gun for every four > residents, equivalent to the national average. Austin said officials do not > have a regional breakdown on those who have registered and those remaining > to register. ( Uh Dave you got it backwards again...it's more like four guns for every one resident Dave !! ) and naturally they don't have a breakdown of people who have or havn't registered... half of zero is still zero !! ...Not only does he not have a regional breakdown- but he doesn't explain how this study group ever determined how they came about to the one in four figure for Alberta- Let alone even determine a National Average. ... Let's be realistic now..there is no possible conclusive way for any study group to accurately determine the number of gun owners or guns in Canada. For if they knew this already- they wouldn't need gun owners to register- they'd already know who they are, whether they own guns or not, and their geographic location. > > To facilitate the registration process, Brooks RCMP, in co-operation with > the area firearms officer and the Brooks Fish and Game Association, will be > offering a registration clinic at the Brooks Public Library this Saturday > and Dec. 14 from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. (Attendance Prediction....only volunteers,RCMP, and anti-gun zealots will attend ) > > Volunteers will assist people in completing their registration online. (Volunteers will not be required- and be about as bored as a Maytag repairman, and sent home early ...about two minutes after they come to the realization that nobody is coming !! ..Kind of reminds you of one of the Prime Ministers recent fundraiser dinners huh ? ) > > Lin Springer, area officer with the Canadian Firearms Centre, said many > people are registering online because it's convenient. ( No relation to Jerry Springer I hope !! ...Of course if ther was any relation, that would fully explain how she would fit right in with the CFC. ) - Lin states : Many people registering online ? ... I see she's been given the same used car training that Austin got ...Hey Dave, -dont' forget to tell her about the ZERO/ ZERO / ZERO offer so Gun owners can keep their guns !! ) > > Staff Sgt. Ray Noble of the Brooks RCMP detachment said the purpose of the > clinic is to assist people who are not familiar with the registration > process or who do not have Internet access. > > AND the Whole Purpose of Staff Sgt. RAY Noble making this statement to trhe > Press is because he desperately doesn't want to become a used Car salesman > like Dave Austin !! ....The purpose of the clinic / Registration is to try to make compliance numbers more acceptable now that the whole country is scrutinizing the program with a fine tooth comb - after all the Liberals dignity is on line now. ( Then again what Dignity ) > > "Although there has been a lot of heated debate over the merits of this > legislation, it is coming into effect and all firearm owners are required > to > have their firearms registered," said Noble. Yeah the Millions of Gun owners who refuse will be hunted down like dogs and the RCMP and other Police agencies will storm their home proudly proclaiming " Badges...we don't need no stink'in badges " and promptly arrest them , the courts will give them probation like any other common hoodlum, and crime in Canada will continue to escalate while innocent Gun Owners are harrassed/arrested for failing to comply with a stupid, useless, unjust,and UNconstitutional Law. Think of the manpower that will be expended on this Liberal pursuit of Political revenge against Gun Owners. > > On Friday, the federal government gave firearms owners a six-month "grace > period" to receive their gun-registration papers next year if they register > the weapons by the Jan. 1 deadline. They can "Grace" all they want ...in fact Prayer is exactly what this Liberal Government needs if it thinks Gun Owners will bow down to their draconian laws. > > Under the grace period for obtaining registration certificates, gun owners > who have applied for registration prior to the deadline will be afforded > protection from criminal liability until June 30. I think Gun Owners already possess adaquate Protection from Criminal Libility. it's called a GUN !! ....any criminal that is armed within the confines of a Gun Owners home will be Criminally liable for his own demise. > > The Canadian Alliance has said the firearms registration and licensing > system has bogged down in a red-tape nightmare. That's putting it mildly !! ... Every accountant from every major accounting firm in the world- would grow bald and die of old age .... before they could sort this mess out !! > > Treasury Board officials recently told a Senate committee the registration > and licensing system will have cost taxpayers about $1 billion by 2005. The > new legislation took effect in 1998. The Billion dollars is already surpassed if you count all the hidden costs that they fail to allow Mr.Breitkreuz to uncover. By 2005 the costs will most likely double what they are now !! ...They are spending 72 Million this year alone (and that is based on the figure they're willing to publicly disclose..you just know that the hidden figures will be many more times that number) - -and again they will continue to sneak money into the program without advising Parliment... and in another five years yet another Auditor Generals Report will uncover the same wrongdoing yet again !! - -and another feel-good/damage control "study" will be commissioned to cover their butts and try to convince the Canadian people this was someones "accident" And they will put on another Academy Award performance of how innocent everyone is and how mad they are this has happened !! By the way, Speaking of used car salesman... I wonder who will turn out to be the most successful salespeople this year... GM,FORD, or the Dave Austin at the CFC ? - - But Remember guys... the good folks over at the CFC are willing to allow you keep your guns (through the kindness of their hearts ) with Zero Down,Zero Per Cent interest, and Zero Per cent financing only for a limited time only .... This Propaganda sale lasts only until midnight,Dec.31. - - and like Most Car dealerships...they will make the same offer to you during the Limited time "Grace SALE " (where they pray by this time you've already registered ) - - Hey did Dave mention that you can register online and it's FREE (GRIN) **** Famous probable backroom quote of the Prime Minister to Martin Couchon upon the Release of the Auditor Generals report : "Wid-out da proof dares no proof- Da Proof is Da Proof -cause WID-OUT da Proof Dares No Proof " (This quote brought to you courtesy of Hooked on Phonic-o-phones !!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:49:01 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: JUSTICE MINISTER CHARGED WITH CONTEMPT OF PARLIAMENT 37th Parliament, 2nd Session (September 30, 2002 - ) Edited Hansard * Number 038 Wednesday, December 4, 2002 Privilege Question of Privilege [Hansard Page 2257] http://www.parl.gc.ca/PDF/37/2/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/Han038-E.PDF Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege regarding a grave matter relating to information that I requested through a question on the Order Paper. Recent events have led me to believe that there has been a deliberate attempt by the Department of Justice to deny me a correct answer. My question of privilege will charge the parliamentary secretary who delivered the answer to the House and the Minister of Justice who is responsible for his department with contempt for sending me misleading information with regard to Question No. 131 from the last session. I will present four points, Mr. Speaker, that you will need to consider together before a prima facie case of privilege can be made. I would ask that the Speaker examine, first, the question that I submitted to the government; second, the response given by the parliamentary secretary; third, the Auditor General's report and her comments following the tabling of her report; and fourth, the perception created in the public's mind through the media. I will begin by laying out the procedural grounds on which this question of privilege is based. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:49:05 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Gun registry hasn't 'saved lives': police: PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 2002.12.05 EDITION: Final SECTION: News PAGE: A3 BYLINE: Shannon Kari SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen DATELINE: TORONTO - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Gun registry hasn't 'saved lives': police: $1B could have been better spent on police work, officers' group says - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- TORONTO -- The Police Association of Ontario says there are more cost effective ways to "save lives" than the federal government's firearms registry. Bruce Miller, a spokesman for the association, said yesterday it is "far too early" to say if the registry has prevented homicides or other firearms-related deaths, as has been claimed by politicians who created the program. "The amount of money that has been spent on this registry would be better invested in front-line policing," Mr. Miller said. Following a scathing report on the program's soaring cost by Auditor General Sheila Fraser, Industry Minister Allan Rock, who held the justice portfolio when the registry legislation was introduced in 1995, defended the program by suggesting it prevented several hundred deaths. "What is the value of 300 lives a year?" Mr. Rock asked. About 30 per cent of homicides in Canada each year involve firearms, a statistic that has remained constant for the past two decades. The current justice minister, Martin Cauchon, also suggested yesterday in the House of Commons that opponents of the registry program "do not believe in safe communities." "What we are talking about is values. It is about making our communities safe," Mr. Cauchon said. Mr. Miller suggested an increased focus on the correctional system, and measures to prevent people on parole from committing future acts of violence, would do more to protect Canadians. The police association, which represents more than 21,000 rank and file officers across Ontario, initially supported the firearms registry. But Mr. Miller said the $1-billion cost of the program is likely to change the views of the association's members. "Any support that we had has been significantly weakened," he said. A spokeswoman for Mr. Rock said yesterday the minister was referring to Statistics Canada data about the number of deaths caused by firearms. In 1989, there were 1,364 deaths that involved firearms, compared to 1,006 in 1999. About 80 per cent were a result of suicide. What is on the rise is the use of handguns in homicides. Handguns were involved in nearly two-thirds of firearms-related homicides compared to about 50 per cent a decade ago. The problem is most noticeable in Toronto, where police Chief Julian Fantino has spoken out frequently about the availability of handguns in the city. Many of the weapons are reportedly smuggled from the United States into Quebec and then transported to Toronto. In the past two months, there have been several shootings in the city, allegedly by rival gang members. There have been 55 homicides in Toronto in 2002 so far, comparable to an average of about 60 homicides in each of the past five years. (In comparison, 88 people have died in automobile accidents in Toronto this year). However, the occurrence of homicides involving firearms has increased to 56 per cent from 39 since 1997. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:49:08 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: "What previous justice ministers said about the cost of the gun r egistry" PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 2002.12.05 EDITION: Final SECTION: News PAGE: A3 BYLINE: Kate Jaimet SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen ILLUSTRATION: Photo: Jonathan Hayward, The Canadian Press / (Allan Rock);Photo: Fred Chartrand, The Canadian Press / (Anne McLellan) !@IMAGES=Photo: Jonathan Hayward, The Canadian Press / (Allan Rock) [74702-18462.jpg]; Photo: Fred Chartrand, The Canadian Press / (Anne McLellan) [74702-18463.jpg]; NOTE: Ran with fact box "What previous justice ministers said about the cost of the gun registry", which has been appended to the story. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- 'If I had a billion dollars': There's almost no end to the projects and programs that could have been paid for by the gun registry wastage, writes Kate Jaimet. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- If I had a billion dollars, Justice Minister Martin Cauchon might sing, I'd register every gun in Canada. The billion-dollar federal firearms registry has exceeded by a thousandfold the dreams of the Barenaked Ladies, who sang about throwing away a mere million on tree forts, fake fur coats and dijon ketchup. It has outstripped its original $2-million cost estimate by a whopping $998 million, and brought down the wrath of Auditor General Sheila Fraser in her report tabled Tuesday. If the people of Canada had a billion dollars, said Canadian Alliance MP Garry Breitkreuz, they would find other things to spend it on than registering hunting rifles and shotguns. "If you want to improve public safety, you could put 12,000 more police on the street for a billion dollars," said Mr. Breitkreuz. "We could secure our borders better. We could stop the smuggling of guns." And if, as Mr. Cauchon argues, the aim of the registry is to save lives, that money could go toward needed medical staff and equipment, Mr. Breitkreuz said. "With waiting lines and people dying, that would save lives." A billion dollars would hire a lot of nurses: 15,677 senior, top-of-the-pay-scale nurses in Ontario, or, for a real bargain, 30,246 entry-level nurses in Quebec. It could be used to buy 330 magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) machines for diagnosing soft tissue damage; Canada has fewer such machines per capita than the United Kingdom, Sweden, Germany and Australia, and only about half as many per capita as the U.S. If the government wanted to follow the recommendations of last week's Romanow report, a billion dollars would pay for home care for 840,000 terminally ill people, patients recovering from surgery and people living with mental illnesses. A billion dollars would almost replace the military's aging Sea King helicopters. When the government originally planned to replace the Sea Kings in 1992, it could have bought 11 new EH-101 helicopters for that price. By August 2000, it could have bought 10 new helicopters. Instead, the Sea Kings are still flying. The Senate reports that $1 billion could give the military proper training, more flying hours and regular maintenance of equipment. The government could buy four submarines for $750 million and have enough change left over to replace Environment Canada's 300 decrepit weather monitoring stations. A billion dollars could go a long way to cleaning up Canada's air and water. It would be enough to build sewage treatment plants in Halifax, Victoria and Saint John's, which all dump raw sewage into their harbours. The cost of the gun registry could build groundwater treatment systems in 500 small communities anxious to ensure the safety of their drinking water after the deadly E. coli infection in Walkerton, Ont. Or, a billion dollars could provide modern drinking water and sewage treatment facilities on 45 First Nations reserves, at an average cost of $22 million each, calculated from the 2000-01 estimates of the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs. What Previous Justice Ministers Said About the Cost of the Gun Registry: Allan Rock 'Should the decision be to proceed with a system of registration, it will only be on the basis that such a system can be established through a reasonable outlay of capital costs .' - -- Nov. 14. 1994 'We have provided our estimate of the cost of implementing universal registration over the next five years. We say that it will cost $85 million. .... We encourage the members opposite to examine our estimates. We are confident we will demonstrate the figures are realistic and accurate.' - -- Feb. 16, 1995 Anne McLellan 'Allan Rock ... indicated that start-up costs ... would be $85 million. Last year I indicated ... that the startup costs had in fact increased and would be $120 million.' - -- May 5, 1999 'The total costs over the five-year period from 1995 to 2000 ... are $327 million. The original projection was approximately $200 million for that five-year period.' - -- May 10, 2000 'This number, $85 million, is thrown around by people as representing the total costs over the relevant five-year period. ... My predecessor indicated that the $85 million would be the startup cost. Two years ago (I said) ... the startup cost has gone from $85 million to $120 million. That startup ended as of Dec. 1, 1998, and we are now in full operational mode.' - -- Nov. 29, 2001 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:49:09 -0600 (CST) From: "Paul Chicoine" Subject: LETTERS TO THE EDITOR: No evidence gun registration works Well done Gary. http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/letters/story.asp?id={0ADBC4D 0-1FCE-45AB-ACFF-AC3D82F895DF} LETTERS TO THE EDITOR: No evidence gun registration works The Gazette Thursday, December 05, 2002 What can you say about a government that would rather waste $1 billion of taxpayers' money on a useless program than to admit that it was wrong? Canada's gun-registry program was supposed to cost the overburdened Canadian taxpayer only $2 million, and yet, the auditor-general tells us that the tab is currently at $1 billion, and counting (Gazette, Dec. 4). Let's put this all into perspective. In Canada, about 500 homicides are committed each year; firearms figure in roughly one-third of these, or 165 on average. Of these, about half seem to be related to the crime world (of course, the Hells Angels surely register all their guns and have permits)? Not that it matters much since there is no evidence that registering guns dissuades anybody from using them to commit murder. By contrast, drunk drivers cause an average of four deaths a day in Canada, for a total nearly three times higher than all homicides - not just the ones involving firearms. So my question to the government, the police chiefs and the anti-gun lobby is: might we not have saved more lives or made our streets safer by using that money to put more police officers on our streets and highways and more doctors in our emergency rooms? Gary Menten St. Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:49:21 -0600 (CST) From: "Mark Horstead" Subject: Feeding Frenzy I can't remember _ever_ having so much fun reading newspapers, watching television (CPAC's exhibitting a healthy appetite as I type), listening to the radio, and surfing the internet. The media, the opposition, and several Liberal backbenchers are all out for blood. Feast long and well, all of you. Mark PS: There's a phone-in on CPAC in fifteen minutes... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:50:04 -0600 (CST) From: DaveBartlett@FirearmsTraining.ca Subject: Just say NO!! Call your MP today. A day after the billion dollar firearms registration boondoggle finally made front page news across the country the Justice Department is going to Parliament today to get another $72,000,000.00. Wouldn't it make your MP's day more interesting if he got a call from every gun owner in his riding demanding that he vote against the additional funding? You can look up your MP's phone number at this link: www.parl.gc.ca/information/about/people/house/PostalCode.asp?Source=SM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:50:05 -0600 (CST) From: "Mark Horstead" Subject: CPAC Online Poll http://www.cpac.ca/index_e.asp Click on "Participate in the PrimeTime Politics Poll". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:50:46 -0600 (CST) From: "Paul Chicoine" Subject: submitted letter to the editor letter to the editor regarding the AG's report of gun control At weeks end a small group will gather at a Montreal park to memorialize the death of 14 young women. At weeks beginning, Auditor General Sheila Fraser tabled a scathing report of the government program intended to address those senseless deaths. Over the passage of time, between cause and effect, more than a billion dollars will be wasted. Money, which could have been better spent dealing with the causes of violence, the effects of violence, education, health care or at least, battered womans shelters. Groups promoting the gun legislation have brought themselves into disrepute by promoting misleading statistics. The federal government has desecrated the democratic intent and institution of parliament. The Canadian people are still denied the whole truth. Canadians have been denied a positive, productive benefit for their tax dollars. Legitimate businesses have been driven into bankruptcy or have suffered huge losses. Honest, law abiding, firearm owning citizens have been singled out by a law which violates their charter rights in several instances. Murderous events in Toronto and other Canadian cities painfully illustrate the abject failure of the firearms laws. Despite this burden of proof, the federal government intends to forge onward with the squandering of additional, untold millions of dollars. Most striking is the realization that the events of 12 years ago could happen again today or tomorrow. The government and its allies seem incapable of accepting that violent insanity cannot be legislated away. What is apparent is that fiscal insanity has become institutionalized. __________ Paul Chicoine Non Assumsit Contract, All Rights Reserved, Without Prejudice _________________________________________________ ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #359 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@shaw.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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