From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #385 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, December 8 2002 Volume 05 : Number 385 In this issue: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #382 Re: Debate Cukier vs Mauser Fw: RFC Ottawa: Letter from Dave Tomlinson Vancouvers latest $6000000 man Manitoba Wildlife Federation says Abolish Gun Registery Re: Eloquent quotes Your Post (No Subject) CFD 384 RE: Inline muzzle loaders ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:14:25 -0600 (CST) From: Michael Ackermann Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #382 Very interesting treatise, Boris. I enjoyed it immensely. - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) President, St. Mary's Shooters Association Box 3, RR 1, 4132 Sonora Rd. Sherbrooke, NS Canada B0J 3C0 902-522-2172 My email: mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca SMSA URL: www.smsa.ca "Hope for the best, but plan for the worst". ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:17:11 -0600 (CST) From: Michel Hebert Subject: Re: Debate Cukier vs Mauser Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 15:36:47 -0600 (CST) From: AOB Subject: Debate Cukier vs Mauser Reminder to All Listen to Wendy;Cukier of the Coalition Against Firearms debate SFU Proffessor Gary Mauser and then have your say on Global Sunday. Global: 2.30 Ontario (due to NFL) 5.30 Maritimes, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Briti h Columbia 6.30 Quebec and Alberta Prime: 6.30 Manitoba 7.30 Ontario, Queb: c an riti~h Ccki^nbia 8,30 Maritimes ar 3.30 Saskatchevv, . canada.com SearchWord: Global Sunday. "FREEDOM" For those who Fought, Bled and Died For It " FREEDOM " has a FLAVOR THE PROTECTED will Never Know or Savor. Anonymous me Yes, I did watch the show. No new information per say but very interesting nevertheless. One very interesting fact was that the only ones trying to interrupt the other side were the women representing the anti-gun groups. It just shows that they can not stand to be proven wrong. Michel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:18:56 -0600 (CST) From: Ed Tait Subject: Fw: RFC Ottawa: Letter from Dave Tomlinson Professor Dorans Thank you for the information contained in your response of this date, to Mr. Tomlinson's recent comments in reference to you not being invited to a Senate committee hearing he and Mr. Hinter attended and addressed. Thank you also for your continued and invaluable assistance of us all in the RFC. Regardless the detractors and there will be I suggest, many more as you and we in the RFC move to open the Ottawa office and your public profile continues to increase. Let us hope, against hope however, that no more comes from within the ranks of the RFC itself. As I have committed previously, you have my personal support, without reservation. I stand ready to follow your lead and to offer you and the RFC's Ottawa office whatever assistance is practicable and within my power to offer. Awaiting still your call to action.... Merry Christmas and may 2003 be the year we regain but some of the Freedom and Liberty which has been taken from us all. Ed Tait Victoria - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Dorans" To: Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 4:44 PM Subject: RFC Ottawa: Letter from Dave Tomlinson RFC Ottawa/FED UP Canada Protecting Canadian Freedoms ................................... Dear Firearms Owner, December 8, 2002 With the release of Auditor General Sheila Fraser's Report on the costs of the gun registry, events over the past week in Ottawa have reached hectic, unprecedented and mind boggling proportions. On the Digest, there have also been frequent references to a posting by Dave Tomlinson, entitled "The real world" ... Herein, I shall endeavour to address both issues. This is a copy of DAT's letter which was forwarded to me. DAT's email appeared on the Digest, as well. It was also circulated to a closed circle of undisclosed recipients, ostensibly NFA members. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Tomlinson" To: Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 8:47 AM Subject: The real world... NFA National President Jim Hinter, seconded by David A. Tomlinson, NFA Legal, made a very strong presentation, by invitation, to the Senate Standing Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs last week. A full report will be available to NFA Members in NFA publications. The Senators were very hostile to the Bill, and gave both the government's bureaucrats and Wendy Cukier a very hard time. The only other major firearms association represented was the CSSA, represented by Tony Bernardo. Al Dorans was not present, either as an invited participant or as a spectator to see what was happening, which is odd, because he lives in Ottawa. ....................................................................... The first 2 paragraphs are straightforward. I thank those RFC representatives present for participating in protecting our Canadian freedoms. In particular, Tony's presentation drew direct attention to how the RFC has been lied to, deceived and misled. It is the third paragraph to which I take exception. DAT stated, "The only other major firearms association represented was the CSSA, represented by Tony Bernardo". Therein, DAT criticizes the remaining majority of gun organization allies in the RFC by inferring that they should have been there, too. Readers should know that the feds have a habit of calling meetings on short notice (less than 2 days). This allows little time for proper RFC preparation. Are you surprised? They tend to include some groups and exclude others, to manipulate those groups and create internal strife for those naive enough, or self inflated enough, to bite at the "Look how important we are!" phenomenon. When ego stroking is taking place, the RFC is being manipulated. A point is reached where some RFC representation is desirable and necessary. Obviously, overkill is excessive. Does the RFC really need 2000 firearms organizations in attendance? If both groups were present, I take it as a given, on trust, that the RFC would be ably represented. In direct response to Ed Sieb's Digest query, I never received an invitation to attend. Nor was I made aware that such a meeting was taking place until after it was over. But, then again, provincial wildlife groups, fish and game associations, CUFA and LUFA were not invited, or present, either. This is just one transparent strategy that the feds use to try and divide RFC support. DAT's next statement is revealing "Al Dorans was not present, either as an invited participant or as a spectator to see what was happening, which is odd, because he lives in Ottawa." Although his primary reference was to major firearms organizations, note that DAT does not mention that the OFAH, RFOA, RFOCBC and many other key firearms organizations were not present. Neither were 5-7 million gun owners. Personally, it is not my preference to stoop to DAT's petty and petulant agenda. However, to deal with the larger and more important issue of informing firearms owners regarding what has been happening in Ottawa, I share the following: 1. Rogers Cable Television At virtually the same time as the Senate meetings were being held in Ottawa, Al Dorans and John Perocchio were invited, on short notice, to appear on Ottawa Citizen Talk. This was a one hour call-in show on November 28, from 9:00-10:00 P.M., on Rogers Cable TV Network, Channel 22. During that time, we were ably representing the RFC on television. That was the second time within a week that John and I were on this program attacking Bill C-68/FA in Ottawa. Since the 2 programs were aired several times in the mornings and several times in the evenings, the saturation coverage around the nation's capital was strong and effective. There was no doubt that we came out on top of the debate with Priscilla de Villiers. When no anti gun opposition would appear to debate us on November 28, we succeeded beyond expectations in delivering uninterrupted messages on C-68/FA to the Ottawa public on the call-in show. This was timed to precede and coincide with the expected Auditor General's Report slated for December 3. Since John works full-time, I prepared a report on both programs and communicated both of those on the Canadian Firearms Digest to all RFC members, including DAT. Indeed, Dave Tomlinson was fully informed of our previous commitment, since I posted an announcement of our upcoming Nov. 28 Rogers interview days before on the Digest, with a copy to him personally. Odd that he did not recall this. When those tasks had been achieved, we found out that Senate meetings had been held and were over. We never received an invitation or call from anyone, inside or outside of the RFC, that these meetings were taking place. 2. Letter from M.P. Inky Mark, P.C. In successive monthly issues of Access to Firearms, Editor Paul Rogan published the following articles which I had written to inform and educate Canadian firearms owners on C-68/FA. 1. "Why the RFC Needs a National Office in Ottawa"; 2. "Why the RFC Fails to Unite: Response to Dan Lupichuk"; 3. "Gun Owner Options Before Gun Registration Day". As a result, I received an unsolicited letter from M.P. Inky Mark, indicating that he had read those submissions and confirmed the need for a firearms office and a lobby group in Ottawa. Inky Mark wrote: "The only way out of this (Gun Registry/Firearms Act) is to do things right, and it starts with a strong lobby on the Hill. What I tell everyone who comes to the Hill is this. That if you're not here to lobby hard day in and day out, you don't have a hope in hell of changing anything. It's hard enough for those who have active lobbies. Another thing is that the various firearms groups need to work together. Their own internal bickering doesn't do a thing for us." Subsequently, I received a telephone call from Inky during which we conversed further on C-68/FA for over an hour. To defeat C-68, we need supporters in all political parties. Lobbying politicians takes many different forms. 3. RFC Letter Writing Campaign In anticipation of the Auditor General's Report, I made a point of individually congratulating numerous gun owning writers who had been published recently in major newspapers. I repeated that with a series of group commendations on the Digest. Positive reinforcement has an encouraging, empowering effect. Not surprisingly, 6 out of 7 of the Firearms/Registry articles appearing in the Ottawa Sun on Dec. 5 were written by members from that same group. 4. Letter from the Globe and Mail A recent report by Roy MacGregor, Globe and Mail indicated that a former Liberal M.P. had visited with Prime Minister Chretien and advised him that the Firearms Issue and the RFC had caused his election defeat in Renfrew/Pembroke/Nipissing. The loser was Liberal Hec Cloutier who was defeated by Canadian Alliance M.P., Cheryl Gallant. With strong support from the RFC, I led and spoke at each one of those 6 firearms rallies in her RPN riding. Moreover, I led and spoke at each one of the 5 firearms rallies held in Lanark-Carleton, won by C.A. Scott Reid. 5. Contacts with the Media During this period I conducted a telephone interview with reporter Gloria Galloway, Globe and Mail. Similarly, there was another telephone interview with Host, Holly Doan CPAC, the Cable Public Affairs Channel. 6. Dramatic Revelations from My M.P.'s Office Responding to an email request from Kingsley Beattie for gun owners to call their MPs and object to the $72 million in additional funding for the Gun Registry, I followed Kingsley's advice. Liberal Party Whip Marlene Catterall is my Member of Parliament, Ottawa West-Nepean. For about 45 minutes, I spoke with a head secretary at her constituency office. The secretary recorded our conversation. I told her who I was, where I lived and that I opposed any money going toward an ineffective and wasteful gun registry. Surprisingly, she stated that she had spoken that morning with Mrs. Catterall and learned that Marlene and the Liberals had been thoroughly duped on the costs of the Registry by federal bureaucrats (DOJ). I interjected that while that may be partly true, I sent at least 2 dozen letters to her Constituency Office over several years, alerting her to these ongoing deceptions. Nevertheless, as Liberal Whip, Mrs. Catterall was actively persuading and campaigning Liberal MPs to refuse additional funds for the gun registry. Yikes! Since the vote in the House of Commons was to take place at 5:30 P.M. that very same day, I jumped on the phone and called about 15 members of RFC Ottawa/FED UP Canada. I asked them to call their MPs immediately and encouraged them also to contact others to do likewise. I emphasized that they remind constituency secretaries to inform their MPs of these calls, well before the vote was to be taken later that day. Apparently, the collective RFC strategy of public pressure worked, for the bill was withdrawn. If Chretien had been assured of enough support, the vote would have proceeded. However, as there was sufficient doubt, the Liberals withdrew the bill and avoided a possible election, if the bill were defeated. Instead, Justice Minister Martin Cauchon chose to spend $60,000 on a so-called independent study to investigate himself. In another astonishing revelation, the secretary informed me that Liberal Whip Marlene Catterall was actively campaigning with Liberal MPs to scrap the C-68 gun registry altogether! Yikes! Perhaps she did read all of my letters, after all. At that point I entered into a solemn promise, on behalf of the RFC. If Marlene Catterall succeeded in scrapping the gun registry, I promised that I would not harass her during the next federal election campaign. Previously, I had been on her case during the 2000 election. I asked the secretary to pass that message along to Mrs. Catterall which she said she would. Someone wrote on the Digest that what is needed is not just skill and talent but dogged determination. Accordingly, when I went to renew my FAC to a PAL, I heard that the process could be speeded up through the office of an MP. Hence, I called her office to inform them of my test case. The office staff were very professional and diplomatic. Excluding the weekends, I called Mrs. Catterall's office every day for 57 straight days before I received my Possession and Acquisition License. Now that is dogged determination! Her office staff were aware of my perseverance. Cost of the Above to the RFC? .......... $0.00 Impact on C-68/FA? ..................... Priceless This qualifies RFC Ottawa/FED UP Canada as the most cost effective firearms organization in the country. This is part of the real world, too. Professor Al Dorans Director, RFC Ottawa Chairman, FED UP Canada ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:47:19 -0600 (CST) From: Boris Gimbarzevsky Subject: Vancouvers latest $6000000 man Just listened to the BCTV news and it appears that this morning Vancouver police shot and killed a man when they found him in a stolen vehicle with a replica pistol. Presumably more details will come to light in the future, but until then deciding who bears the cost of this death will be problematic. According to anti-gunners, this death represents a social loss of $6000000. Replica firearms aren't covered under the firearms registry, so it would be difficult to pin the blame for this on gun-owners. Given the greater likelyhood of police to shoot anyone with a firearm or what looks like a firearm since C-68 came into effect, perhaps this $6000000 should be added to the cost of C-68, and we update Rocks total of "lives saved" by C-68 by -1. On the other hand, should this individual turn out to be one of the many car thieves that operate in Vancouver, then the social cost will be much less then $6000000 as usually the only way that most of these car thieves are stopped is when they smash their stolen vehicle into another car, usually full of children, while trying to outrun police (in Vancouver the courts have shown a remarkable reluctance to jail car thieves for more than a few days). This, of course, gets us into much more speculative realms and we should go with the $6000000 figure which the anti-gunners keep bringing up and demand that the Vancouver police department be more fiscally responsible. The reason I put on BCTV was that I wanted to listen to Gary Mauser debate Kooky Wendy; turns out that this program came on at 17:30 in Vancouver, and I only started listening at 17:45. I got an audiotape of the last 15 minutes, but wonder if anyone in Vancouver videotaped the whole program as I did want to listen to this. Boris Gimbarzevsky Moderator: It was announced that tapes are available 24 hours after the show. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:48:39 -0600 (CST) From: "Larry Neufeld" Subject: Manitoba Wildlife Federation says Abolish Gun Registery PRESS RELEASE ________________________________________________________________ Manitoba Wildlife Federation Urges Federal Government to Abolish National Gun Registry Auditor General Sheila Fraser's report on the federal government's gun registry comes as no surprise to the members of the Manitoba Wildlife Federation. Lloyd Lintott, President of the Manitoba Wildlife Federation said, " We have known for years that the facts that the federal Liberals were using to promote their gun registry were inaccurate and could not be believed. Not only has the federal government mislead firearms owners, but they have also mislead every Canadian taxpayer as well as parliament itself." Lintott said, " Law abiding firearms owners have been accused of fear mongering since the inception of this legislation for repeatedly claiming that the registry was a bureaucratic nightmare and was not only grossly over budget, but was also lacking accountability. " Auditor General Fraser's report indicates that the entire process is so badly mismanaged by the Department of Justice that a complete audit is impossible. Fraser concluded that "the issue here is not gun control. And it is not astronomical cost overruns, although those are serious. What is inexcusable is that parliament was kept in the dark." With the release of such a damning report of the gun registry and the calls of disgust from Liberal backbenchers, the Manitoba Wildlife Federation is calling on the Liberal government to shut down the gun registry. Law abiding firearms owners have always been prepared to sit down with government to work out gun control programs that will benefit everyone. It is obvious that it is time the Liberal government started listening before more money is wasted. With the December 31st deadline to register firearms looming, Lintott concluded, "The federal government has forced law abiding firearms owners into a difficult position of deciding whether to cave in and participate in a useless, ineffective gun registry, or risk becoming criminals on January 1, 2003." For more information contact: Lloyd Lintott, President Manitoba Wildlife Federation (204) 633 5967 December 8, 2002 MANITOBA WILDLIFE FEDERATION 70 Stevenson Road, Winnipeg, MB R3H 0W7 Phone (204) 633-5967, Fax (204) 632-5200 e-mail mwf@mb.sympatico.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:58:41 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Lowe Subject: Re: Eloquent quotes Peter Kearns wrote: > I dunno about the rest of you, but I could equally see the name "Rick Lowe" > as the subject of the quote! Can you indeed Peter? Just when have I ever mislead firearms owners by saying one thing while doing another? When have I ever acted as a conman or liar for the Hinter/Tomlinson Gang or any other organization? I do find it amusing that you would suggest I have posed as one thing while doing another - or lied to the people who read this group. I find it amusing because you were the one who told this Digest the MAC group you were spokesman for was not a rubberstamp group for Hinter and Tomlinson - and then once they had no further use for you and dumped you, you then told anyone who would listen that it was nothing but a rubberstamp group to take the heat off Hinter so he wouldn't have to answer questions. You were their lapdog-conman for quite some time until whatever deal they made to buy your cooperation went sour on you. People may not like my position on the NFA dictatorship who have seized power and how they have performed over the last couple of years - but nobody can seriously claim that I have switched sides or been inconsistent in that position. You, on the other hand, change your story and loyalties more often than you change your underwear. A good part of the reason that Hinter and Tomlinson retain control of the NFA today - unelected - is that your spin doctor efforts on their behalf with the MAC kept the membership in the dark and reassured long enough for them to consolidate their greedy grasp. And now, you've gotten such a reputation for changing sides that nobody from any side of the issue wants to have anything to do with you. > Again I see this as a good illustration of a "wannabe" (Rick's word from > one of his previous rants,) who figures he, (in this case Rick,) could do a > better job than anybody else of running the whole RFC. A most impressive observation. Assuming, that is, you could ever find a single solitary post under my name where I claim I could do a better job than anybody else of running the whole RFC. And I have never said any such thing - I have neither the time nor the expertise to run "the whole RFC". On the other hand, it IS true that I could do a better job than you and your masters Hinter and Tomlinson. Simple honesty, truthfulness, and putting the purpose of the organization ahead of personal interest would be enough to accomplish that. And so, as I have never said such a thing, this comment of yours falls under the highly novel category of a "Do you still beat your wife" accusation. Put another way, what we have here is more Peter Kearns deceit. Which is standard fare from you for quite some time now. You seem to have the Hinter Disease. I suspect you're off your meds again, are you Pete? Time to call the folks in the white coats again, should we? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:38:30 -0600 (CST) From: AOB Subject: Your Post (No Subject) CFD 384 Dan I am an NFA member still #4882s your question does require an answer, You just have to understand Tomlinson and Hinter both suffer from Megalomania. A psychopathological condition of delusional fantasies of power omnipotence & grandiose actions. A condition they share in common with Chretien and his Government. If and when they comply with the court order and render a full accounting of all NFA monies and hold open transparent elections then the internal strife will cease, NFA is not the problem only the so called Executive is ie Hinter-Butts and the self styled Chairman of NFA Legal. NFA had and in some areas still has good honest people a lot have been lost due to the NFA executive triad. "FREEDOM" For those who Fought, Bled and Died For It " FREEDOM " has a FLAVOR THE PROTECTED will Never Know or Savor. Anonymous . ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:44:05 -0600 (CST) From: tommyg@bmts.com Subject: RE: Inline muzzle loaders Lex I own and have used both side hammers and inlines. I too have made unsuccessful shots. But my descision to carry an inline while hunting has to do with the quality of firearm rather than the means if ignition. FYI if you decide to get the Rem. 700ML, read the owners manual. It specifically states to only use Reminton products. This is because the Remmington brand of percussion caps and nipples are abou .001" larger than the standard #11 cap. This means trying to use other manufacturers caps leads to misfires as the striker actually seats the cap on the first hit, then ignited it on the second. This is also why Remminton caps tend to fall off other standard nipples easier The easiest solution to this is to. change to an after market nipple, and cap. Likewise you can put the Rem, niplle in a hand drill, and using a piece of emory cloth polish the nipple while the drill spins(do not go to far) BTW My Rem 700 shoots 1" groups at 100m using 85 grains of Clear Shot, Hornady 300 Grain XTP, 45 casl saboted buletts, lubed with TC bore butter. If you don't lube the sabbots, accuracy will fall of quickly due to plastic fouling of the bore. hope this helps tommyg - - gm ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #385 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@shaw.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) If you find this service valuable, please consider making a tax-deductible donation to the freenet we use: Saskatoon Free-Net Assoc., P.O. Box 1342, Saskatoon SK S7K 3N9 Phone: (306) 382-7070 Home page: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/ These e-mail digests are free to everyone, and are made possible by the efforts of countless volunteers. Permission is granted to copy and distribute this digest as long as it not altered in any way.