From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #394 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, December 9 2002 Volume 05 : Number 394 In this issue: Thank You for Recent Articles/Columns Suggested talking points - Paul Martin A Female Spokesperson for the RFC Re: Take a step back. A Lady Spokesperson for the RFC Regarding the Digest Moderator BCWF ALERT #392/2002: Billion Dollar Mistake In Brief: Martin is urged to take a stand on gun registry re none regarding 3824 Rick Lowe Nipawin Rally & Other Thoughts SENATE COMMITTEE agreed to report Bill C-10A without amendment submitted letter to Vancouver Sun ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:05:10 -0600 (CST) From: "Mark Horstead" Subject: Thank You for Recent Articles/Columns Dear Clinton P Desveaux, Alan Findlay, Stephanie Rubec, and Stephen Bornais I am writing to all of you today because I have seen articles or columns by you in your newspapers over the last couple of days. Firstly, I want to thank you for writing those articles. I appreciate this more than you can imagine, and so do millions of other Canadian citizens. Thank you all. You seem to have realized that this is only the tip of the iceberg. Not only have the full costs still not been revealed, there are many other issues that very few people are aware of. One is the lack of effectiveness as a crime prevention, fighting, or solving tool, and the other is the all-out assault on the constitutionally-protected rights of firearms owners and non-firearms owners. If the Auditor-General ever gets around to evaluating that, well... There is a ton of research available for you to mine for articles and columns if you're interested. The government has screwed this whole thing up so badly that there's a lifetime of employment opportunity for you all. I'll list some websites at the bottom for you. I've written a number of letters to editors over several years, and a good number of those have been fired downrange beginning on 3 December. I've lost a lot of sleep reading the excellent articles that the press have put out and writing as much as I can. Following is a letter that I sent out yesterday, describing just one problem inherent in this dumb law. ************************************* A policeman, enroute to answer a 911 call at a residential address, checks the MDT (Mobile Data Terminal) in his car for information from the firearms registry. It tells him that either firearms are registered to a resident at that address, or no firearms are registered to a resident at that address. In the first case, this could mean either that: there are legally owned firearms present, there are illegal firearms present, or there are no firearms present. In the second case, this could mean either that: there are legally owned firearms present, there are illegal firearms present, or there are no firearms present. Same thing. How could that possibly happen? Firstly, and obviously, illegally owned firearms are not entered into the registry. Any residence, regardless of information held in the registry, could contain illegal firearms. Under the billion-dollar Liberal law, there is a distinction between ownership and possession. Firearms are to be registered to the owner. Somebody other than the owner may, however, legally be in possession. An owner may lend, rent, or lease a firearm to another individual who holds the appropriate licence but, because ownership has not changed, the firearm is still registered to the original owner. There is no requirement to inform the registry or police or anyone at all that this has happened. Hence, the registry may indicate that there are legally owned firearms at an address when in fact there are none as the owner has rented them all out, or it may indicate that there are none present when in fact a resident has legally borrowed one or several. And that's just one of many, many similar failings. Any copper who trusted this brainchild of Allan Rock would likely have a violent end to a short career. Not only couldn't the Rock/Martin/Chretien gang design a system for less than a billion dollars, they couldn't even design one that satisfied the major claim that they made for it: that it would let the police know who had firearms. ************************************* Try the St Mary's Shooters Association website at http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mikeack/SMSA_Web_Page.htm Dr Mike would much rather be treating his patients, raising his young family, and enjoying his pastime than spending huge sums of his own money and devoting whatever time he can find fighting his own government. Garry Breitkreuz' website at http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/ is one that you're probably already familiar with. Calvin Martin, QC, is a Toronto lawyer who has defended a lot of firearms owners who have run afoul of this law without actually committing a crime. He is also a shooter, and his website is at http://www.calvinmartinqc.com/ A Canadian government study on suicide with firearms can be found at http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/ps/rs/rep/wd98-4a-e.pdf It's a long read, but has some interesting stuff and casts great doubt on the government's claim that reducing the number of or restricting firearms would reduce the overall suicide rate or even the firearms suicide rate. The tale of just one family can be found at http://www.injusticebusters.com/index.htm/Lind.htm The Linds are still trying to recover from this nightmare. There are many similar cases (I'm currently trying to raise funds for the defence of one recent victim of Allan Rock's misguided legislative assault on ordinary, honest, harmless citizens). An article illustrating the phenomenon of junk science, similar to the reasons that Allan Rock why claimed that his odious law was justified and necessary, can be found at http://www.junkscience.com/news/glassman.html A good Canadian research site is at http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Research/ A cheaper, more effective suggestion for regulating firearms ownership can be found at http://www.nfa.ca/Publications/PFCSEnglish.pdf A look at the "World Without Guns" concept can be found at http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopelprint120501.html If I can ever be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me. Once again, my thanks, Mark L Horstead 148 Thoms Crescent Newmarket, Ontario L3Y 1E1 905-895-7555 loachman@sympatico.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:05:13 -0600 (CST) From: "Brian Drader" Subject: Suggested talking points - Paul Martin The following talking points have been field tested with great results: 0) Alan Rock is a Canadian gun owner's best buddy. Ignore intent - let's compare results. By bringing in laws in contravention of both common sense and known laws of physics, (eg a Dec 31 2002 deadline for registration application with a Jan 1 2003 deadline for successful response) Alan Rock did more for the firearms rights cause than just about anyone else in the history of Canada. Also as has been observed by Rock's recent remarks to the media, when incompetent antigun politicians are unhappy they lean on... Paul Martin. And on this one issue, Mr Rock is right. 1) Paul Martin funded this boondoggle. He was the Minister of Finance - he held the purse strings. Not once, but each time the $2 million net program was topped up and helped to extra servings plus gravy, until it was poised 50,000% over budget at a billion dollar mess. The accounting on this issue was so atrocious that the Auditor General was forced to stop her audit after encountering irreconcilable figures in the books. 2) Paul Martin is the only serious Liberal leadership contender. The public does not know of other leadership contenders they consider to be a serious choice. Anne McLellan's bid was laughed off by reporters, Sheila Copps elicits a guffaw wherever it is mentioned, and John Manley doesn't have what it takes to be King. By extension, the Liberal Party is bereft of talented individuals. 3) Paul Martin is too much of a 'fence-sitting yes-man' to be Prime Minister - a follower not a leader. He had the choice to say 'NO.' He could have stopped funding to the Firearms Act and he could have spoke up against the Firearms Act. He could have demanded that its shortcomings be addressed as the 'gun lobby' demanded. In fact, he could have stood FOR the Firearms Act - but he did nothing except quietly shovel money into this latest boondoggle during his watch. Canadians don't know his position on the firearm registry issue *or on any others* - although his spokesman has recently affirmed to the CBC that Paul Martin supports the Firearms Act registry. This is not by accident, but is because Paul is purposely avoiding being pinned down on any issue. Politicians know that if they commit to an issue, they can be savaged on it later. But the fact is that Mr Martin's actions, if not his almost total silence while running up the billion dollar tab, have already committed him to supporting the registry. 4) Many lives could have been saved with that money by spending it on other issues - cancer, health care, etc. 60,000 Canadians die of cancer every year in Canada. Alan Rock claims 300 lives were 'saved' under the Firearms Act in total - but that works out to 3 1/3 million dollars per life, even IF the figures put out by the notoriously inaccurate guy were credible. Even if a person had some way of somehow KNOWING that they would somehow manage to chance into a gun battle on a certain date, would you buy a vest from Alan Rock for 3 million dollars if he told you it was bulletproof? Heck, I COULDN'T even if I believed him. That's a ton of money and it should be more properly spent by saving more lives than just one. We have nothing further to gain by making either Alan Rock or Jean Chretien accept responsibility for their roles - Alan is polling around 0% and Jean is about to step down. Both want to blade Paul and will help our cause. Enthusiastic support was secured from the participants for the idea of Paul Martin as the fall guy for this registry. Last week it was Alan Rock's turn to be downrange, but from now on Paul Martin should be where the buck stops. These talking points should be immediately and widely disseminated. Cheers, Brian Drader ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:05:44 -0600 (CST) From: Ed Tait Subject: A Female Spokesperson for the RFC Mr. Doug Bailey of Barrie, opined as follows in CFD No. 386: "We need a good female spokesperson on our side to balance the male-female contrast that is out there. There must be some knowledgeable articulate women out there. Let's add them to the chorus." I couldn't agree with Mr. Bailey more strongly. Whereas Messrs. Mauser and Breitkreuz were more articulate and possessed of the only facts which were presented on the Global show last evening, they looked as we often look, as Men..... The public view of the gun control lobby, is female, of all ages, young and attractive, as in the young lady who got this matter started immediately subsequent to the murders at the Ecole Polytechnic, middle aged and educated as in Ms. Cukier, and the lady who shared the Global interview/debate with her and Mothers and Grandmothers, generally included from the ranks of victims families. I have suggested a female spokesperson before, to share the work of the Ottawa office, and I continue to share and to echo Mr. Bailey's position. We may not all agree, however, if we are to succeed, and we must, I suggest strongly that the call go out.....for a woman, experienced with Firearms, who either has had Media training, or who is willing to take Media training and thereafter, to represent us, alongside Professor Dorans, in Ottawa and in the Media. Merry Christmas Ed Tait Victoria ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:06:35 -0600 (CST) From: "John Poulin" Subject: Re: Take a step back. On 9 Dec 2002 at 7:23, kelly garner wrote: > > All this infighting in the firearms community is not very conducive to all > "our goals" of fighting this fascist regime. We don't live in a fascist regime yet and all this infighting as you put it is democracy in action. We want to rid ourselves of potential, incompetent, egomaniacs just like Mussolini. If you want to support David Thomlinson, go ahead, but in turn I would like to see him and Hinter removed. They have become in my opinion, non-essential personnel who have become unnaccountable like Mussolini and bring down the RFC a notch or two, nevermind helping to destroy the NFA which was a fine group in the past. It's members don't deserve this. JP Poulin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:06:35 -0600 (CST) From: Gordon@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Hitchen@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: A Lady Spokesperson for the RFC An excellent idea whose time has come. Three names spring to mind from my limited experience. Linda Toews, Donna Feroli and Linda Lickacz. But a question arises - would this person have to live and work out of Ottawa? That would certainly narrow the choices down- two of the three mentioned here are married and perhaps even all three. Gordon Hitchen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:06:40 -0600 (CST) From: "Paul Chicoine" Subject: Regarding the Digest Moderator If some of you are overwhelmed with the volume of information coming in over the past few days imagine how Mr. Moderator, Gordon Hitchen is spending his days (or perhaps daze) Gordon, heck of a fine and valuable job. Same holds true for all the past moderators of the digest. Outstanding effort. __________ Paul Chicoine Non Assumsit Contract, All Rights Reserved, Without Prejudice Moderator: Thank You Paul. Never mind the flood - we have their attention now - Keep the letters going! _________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:06:54 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Powlesland Subject: BCWF ALERT #392/2002: Billion Dollar Mistake B.C. Wildlife Federation News Release For Immediate Release December 6, 2002 Billion Dollar Mistake SURREY, B.C. "The Auditor General has finally confirmed what law abiding firearm owners have been saying for years, that the national firearms registration system is too costly and will not work," stated Bob Boswell, President of the B.C. Wildlife Federation. "From the beginning, we have told the Federal Government that this system would cost close to $1 billion dollars, was too cumbersome and would not prevent the criminals from getting illegal firearms." "It is time for the Prime Minister to stop this madness and scrap this unworkable national firearms registration system and put programs in place that will go after real criminals rather than making criminals out of law abiding Canadians." "The people of Canada would be much safer if the Justice Department had spent the $1 billion dollars on stopping the flow of illegal firearms coming into Canada by giving the RCMP and local Police the resources they need to fight real criminals," Boswell continued. "To say that the Parliament did not know about the cost overruns is laughable," stated Dr. Gary Mauser, Professor at Simon Fraser University. "In 1995 I reported to the Government that expected costs of this program would exceed $500 million dollars, and in subsequent reports to the Senate, I continued to state that the cost would balloon to over $1 billion dollars." "In addition, Garry Breitkreuz, MP has continually raised the issue of cost overruns in the Legislature which the Government chose to ignore," Mauser concluded. "This program has been plagued with procedural and technical difficulties from its inception, and should be stopped now!" stated John Holdstock, chairman of the Federation's firearms committee. "We should not continue to waste taxpayer's money on a system that will never work, and it is ludicrous to suggest an additional $72 million be added to an already staggering cost of $1 billion dollars that was spent over the past 6 years The B.C. Wildlife Federation is the largest and longest standing province wide voluntary conservation organization in British Columbia and is the voice of hunters and anglers in the province. - -30- For further information contact, Doug Walker (604) 533-2293 Executive Director John B Holdstock Kelowna, BC jbholdstock@shaw.ca http://www.bcwf.bc.ca/ The world is run by those who show up. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:07:11 -0600 (CST) From: "Paul Chicoine" Subject: In Brief: Martin is urged to take a stand on gun registry Montreal Gazette December 9, 2002 Page A7 IN BRIEF Martin is urged to take a stand on gun registry Heidi Rathjen, co-founder of the Coalition for Gun Control, said she's concerned about Paul Martin's silence on the controversial federal gun registry. Rathjen, a former student at the Ecole Polytechnique at the time of the 1989 Montreal massacre, urged the Liberal leadership front-runner to clarify his position on the matter. She said she fears that Martin might yield to pressure from the gun lobby as he campaigns to succeed Prime Minister Jean Chretien. The gun registry has come under sharp criticism after the auditor-general revealed last week that it had gone over budget by almost $1 billion. ***** Don't forget that one or two years ago, a review of a book written by Ms. Rathjen also appeared in the Montreal Gazette. In the review Ms. Rathjen is quoted as saying the current gun control scheme could not have prevented the killings at Ecole Polytechnique. also I'll suggest your letters to you MP or letters to the editor should Cc: Paul Martin Martin.P@parl.gc.ca __________ Paul Chicoine Non Assumsit Contract, All Rights Reserved, Without Prejudice _________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:07:11 -0600 (CST) From: "Paul Chicoine" Subject: re none >From: Dan Thomey wroteSubject: [none] >Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 18:18:02 -0600 (CST) >I keep reading entries by Rick Loew beating up Dave Tomlinson and the >NFA. I thought the evil enemy was the Liberals. Correct me if I am >wrong but shouldn't we be concentrating on discrediting the Liberals? >Dan Thomey I'll agree to a point with Dan. However the latest battle began after "dat" surfaced to take a cheap shot at Al Dorans. None of us should forget the problems with accountability at NFA and the undeniable fact that hinter and dat cannot lay claim to their "positions and titles" in the face of the NFA bylaws themselves. When Gordon Hitchen reminds us of the unaccounted for millions it reminds me at what a disadvantage we operate. Days after the AG's report the registry fiasco was addressed on CTV Question Period. First commercial break, CTV, Montreal outlet CFCF. ran a well made ad. A nearly nude young woman, curled up in a fetal position. The implication being she is the victim of physical or mental or both or some kind of violent abuse. The commercial ends with the a text message "we are not here to judge" and the sound of a gun shot. leaveoutviolence.com or org The rub, the gun shot sound and the timing was no coincidence. This takes money and as far as I know woman's groups don't have this kind of money so who is collecting the tab? __________ Paul Chicoine Non Assumsit Contract, All Rights Reserved, Without Prejudice _________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:15:01 -0600 (CST) From: "Paul Chicoine" Subject: regarding 3824 Dr. Mike suggested we read message 3824. 3824 reads: Sir James E. Harrison British Columbia V0N 2P0 I think its time for the government to sit back have a drink and reconsider whats really important in our country. ***** Wise words indeed. Anyone know who Sir James E. Harrison is? __________ Paul Chicoine Non Assumsit Contract, All Rights Reserved, Without Prejudice _________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:15:28 -0600 (CST) From: Ron Watson Subject: Rick Lowe Take a break! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com re ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:18:19 -0600 (CST) From: Edward Hudson Subject: Nipawin Rally & Other Thoughts Dear Joe, Re: Nipawin Rally & Other Thoughts Jack & I just returned from a GREAT trip to the Brandon Gun Show. Along with the purchase of three firearms, we passed out over eight hundred pieces of our CUFOA literature. And signed up several new members. We also met our host for the rally in Dryden on Saturday 28Dec02, Bruce Montegue. I believe Bruce will "fit" right in with our "Group of Five". Bruce is a "former" gun shop owner, just having quit the business because of the "government hassle", and he has a 500 hundred meter shooting range where we can "relax" before the meeting in Dryden. We have also been invited by Brian Drader, NFA Manitoba Director, to stop in Winnipeg for a quick "information meeting" on Friday, 27Dec02 on our way to stay with Jack's brother in Ste Anne. Now, as for blitzing the Nipawin area with posters and flyers, Jack & I will be available to come up on Thursday afternoon. Or, we could come up early on Saturday and plaster the cars in the malls. We can do both if that will help. Weather permitting, we are available to do whichever you think will benefit the situation. We would enjoy staying with you on Saturday night if that will work with you. Please advise on these ideas. Sincerely, Eduardo http://www.cufoa.ca "Never doubt that a small group of committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:18:20 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: SENATE COMMITTEE agreed to report Bill C-10A without amendment http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/commbus/senate/com-e/lega-e/rep-e/rep= 02no v02-e.htm REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE THURSDAY, November 28, 2002=20 =20 The Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs has the honour to present its SECOND REPORT - ------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ---- - ---- Your Committee, to which was referred Bill C-10, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, = and to which instructions were given to divide Bill C-10 into two bills, has, = in obedience to both orders of reference, examined the said bill and now reports that it has divided the bill into two bills, Bill C-10A, An Act = to amend the Criminal Code (firearms) and the Firearms Act, and Bill = C-10B, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals), both of which are = set out in Appendices A and B respectively to this report. Your Committee has agreed to report Bill C-10A without amendment, and further reports that it is continuing its examination of Bill C-10B. Respectfully submitted, G=C9RALD A. BEAUDOIN Deputy Chair - ------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ---- - ---- http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/chambus/senate/jour-e/pdf/023ap_2002-= 11-2 8.pdf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:18:44 -0600 (CST) From: "Paul Chicoine" Subject: submitted letter to Vancouver Sun submitted letter to Vancouver Sun Allan Rock claims Paul Martin is playing politics with the gun registry. What was Rock doing when he proposed the gun control laws in the first place, whistling Dixie? In a TV interview, Rock claims he approached the program with the best of intentions. Knock - Knock Al, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Now its been resurfaced with tax payers gold. The exit door is that-a-away and take your registry with you on the way out. __________ Paul Chicoine Non Assumsit Contract, All Rights Reserved, Without Prejudice _________________________________________________ ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #394 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:acardin33@shaw.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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