From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #708 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, February 2 2003 Volume 05 : Number 708 In this issue: Re: Column: Gun control works - AND IT"S A BARGAIN North Gower CA event: Breitkreuz to talk about Gun Registry ARTICLE: Gun group takes aim at charges ARTILCE: Scams cost feds millions Re: verifiers My letter to the Ottawa Sun ARTICLE: Report on gun control on way Great NRA interview with Tony Bernardo RFC Ottawa: Letters from a Retired RCMP Officer my last post CSC Report Re: Column: Gun control works - AND IT"S A BARGAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 00:24:24 -0600 (CST) From: Boris Gimbarzevsky Subject: Re: Column: Gun control works - AND IT"S A BARGAIN There are times when a letter really pisses me off, and Tom Quigly's was one of those. I find it incomprehensible why the CFG can get away with having their BS published and not questioned. Anyway, I finally managed to actually write something relatively short, and sent it off to the Winnipeg Free press via their electronic letters to the editor submission page (I have no idea if it got published, but no-one from the Winnipeg free press has been in contact with me). It was originally submitted to cdn-firearms on 28/1/2003, but apparently got lost. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tim Quigly is completely mistaken when he states: "studies show a direct link between rates of firearm ownership (clearly affected by national legislation) and rates of firearm death in industrialized countries. The same relationship holds within Canada." This statement is completely incorrect, and can be readily verified by examination of numbers from statistics Canada and US crime data. One study which demonstrates a correlation between rates of firearms homicide and firearms ownership was published in the Canadiam Medical Association Journal (CMAJ 148(10):1721-1725 (1993)). This paper is severely flawed and its publication in the CMAJ represents a major failure of the peer review process. All that Killias demonstrated was that, for the set of countries he chose, there is a positive correlation between firearms ownership and homicide. As Tim Quigly should know, correlation does not equal causation. Perhaps Tom Quigly should do some reading regarding the epidemiological concept of the "ecologic fallacy" as when one performs Killias's types of analysis on pre-1980 homicide rates in Canada, one finds the opposite effect in that the lower the firearms ownership rate (obtained from Stenning and Moyer, 1981), the greater the homicide rate. The 1976 survey done by Stenning and Moyer represents the last reliable estimate of firearms numbers in Canada and any estimates coming from the CFC are suspect given their need to show high levels of compliance with firearms registration. A fundamental tenet of epidemiology is that correlation does not equal causation. Once one has found a correlation, one then needs to design controlled experiments to prove that this correlation indeed represents causation. No controlled experiments have been done in the area of firearms and homicide. When one looks at US homicide data and examines the effect that widespread concealed carry of pistols has had on homicide rates, one finds that as concealed carry is implemented in a state, homicide rates DROP from that point on. John Lott has performed a very extensive study looking at a massive amount of US data, and his results are strongly supportive of the conclusion that increasing firearms ownership among law-abiding citizens decreases rates of homicide. A full exposition of the data may be found in John Lott's book "More guns, Less crime". Some 34 US states now allow individuals with no criminal records to carry concealed pistols in public. Statistically Lott's data is far more compelling than the contrary position of Killias. Brandon Centerwall (American Journal of Epidemiology, 134(11):1245-1265 (1991)) in a study comparing Canadian provinces with adjacent US states (excluding very large cities) found no difference between US/Canadian homicide rates despite a 10 fold greater prevalence of pistols in the US. He concludes that registration of firearms is of no demonstrable benefit and concludes "It directs us where not to aim public health resources." An example is best to clarify Tom Quigly's errors in reasoning. It has long been known that nuns have very low rates of cervical cancer. Prostitutes have very high rates. Among women who fit into neither of these categories, cervical cancer rates increase with the numbers of sexual partners a woman has had. If we assume that all sex aside from that for the purposes of procreation is sinfull, then we can show a very strong correlation between the risk of getting cervical cancer and the degree of sinfull behavior. One can easily construct a "sin index" and plotting cervical cancer incidence as a function of this "sin index" would yield a very strong correlation. Because it is so "obvious" that sin causes cervical cancer, and cervical cancer kills women, then in order to save women's lives we must eliminate sin. To a person who is disgusted with the concept of sex, no further proof is needed that something drastic must be done, and "if it saves just one life", no approach is too extreme. Should such individuals be in positions of power, it would not seem unreasonable to them to jail individuals who were engaged in sex for non-procreational purposes, and to conduct surprise warrentless "inspections" of peoples houses to ensure that the occupants were being properly chaste. It would also seem reasonable to such individuals to allow the police to question people in detail about their sex lives, and make it an offence to not answer such questions. This is exactly the position taken by the hoplophobic zealots who are determined to implement C-68 regardless of the cost. Boris Gimbarzevsky, MD ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 00:25:14 -0600 (CST) From: "Shirli Sieb" Subject: North Gower CA event: Breitkreuz to talk about Gun Registry Hi Everyone: We would appreciate it if you would spread the word to your friends who you think might be interested in hearing Mr. Breitkreuz speak on this very important topic. Mr. Breitkreuz has approved the ad. PUBLIC MEETING Join us to discuss the issue of the Federal Gun Registry With Guest Speaker: Garry Breitkreuz, MP * Member of Parliament for Yorkton-Melville, Sask. * Official Opposition Critic for Firearms and Property Rights You are invited to attend a special event hosted by the Canadian Alliance Party, Nepean-Carleton Riding Association, featuring a presentation from Garry Breitkreuz, MP. A question-and-answer period will follow. Wednesday, February 19, 2003, 7:30 – 9:00 p.m. North Gower Recreation Centre (RA) 2300 Community Way, North Gower, ON - - Free Admission - “Canadians have every right to question the judgment of their government when it comes to the issue of public safety. I don’t understand how they could get so far off track. It’s like the government has completely lost their moral compass.” - - Garry Breitkreuz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 01:50:53 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: ARTICLE: Gun group takes aim at charges http://www.canoe.ca/OttawaNews/os.os-02-01-0021.html Saturday, February 1, 2003 Gun group takes aim at charges By ERIN BOUCHER, Ottawa Sun The government is trying to muzzle the voices of gun registry opponents, members of the Canadian Unregistered Firearms Owners Association said yesterday. Five members travelled to Ottawa Thursday in support of their president, Jim Turnbull, who was scheduled to appear in court to answer criminal charges stemming from a Jan. 1 protest on the Hill. The group's most vocal member, Dr. Ed Hudson, intended to violate the firearms act once again by arming himself with a firearm receiver - -- part of a gun -- at a press conference yesterday. His plans were botched when he was charged with obstructing a police officer upon his arrival at the airport Thursday. BARRED FROM PROTESTS Both Hudson and Turnbull are prohibited from attending any public rally or protest as part of their bail conditions. In their place, four members of the CUFOA gave out information yesterday at the foot of the War Memorial. "It's no longer a gun issue," said Jack Wilson, a CUFOA member from Saskatoon. "It's a question of civil liberties now." Despite efforts to put an end to the protests, Claire Joly, a member from Montreal, stressed the group will not give up. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 01:51:21 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: ARTILCE: Scams cost feds millions http://www.canoe.ca/OttawaNews/os.os-02-01-0018.html Saturday, February 1, 2003 Scams cost feds millions By MARIA McCLINTOCK, Ottawa Sun Drug dealers and gun runners are draining millions from federal government coffers through elaborate GST scams, the government admitted yesterday. Liberal MP Colleen Beaumier, parliamentary secretary to Revenue Minister Elinor Caplan, confirmed elements of organized crime have infiltrated the GST system and are getting rich on scams, including car flipping. Beaumier made the revelation after she came under attack by Alliance MPs Rahim Jaffer and John Reynolds during question period. "Has the government ordered an investigation into the possible connection between drug dealers laundering their money and GST fraud?" asked Reynolds. "Absolutely. Many of the GST investigations are related to drug dealers, gun dealers and other violations of Canadian law," Beaumier shot back. Earlier this week, Caplan said Canada Customs and Revenue Agency investigators are probing 125 cases of GST fraud. A CCRA spokesman confirmed the Mounties have been called in on 20 of those cases linked to car flipping, which involves phony paperwork being used to obtain GST credits for the sale of cars supposedly being shipped out of the province. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 02:05:36 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Lowe Subject: Re: verifiers Barry Snow wrote: > I suggested that to Dave Thomlinson a few years ago and he said don't > try it. Of course he said that. If it wasn't Dave Tomlinson's idea, then it isn't worth squat. God's Rules, remember? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 02:09:26 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: My letter to the Ottawa Sun Just submitted, not yet printed. Have you written a letter today? - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Gun group takes aim at charges Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 03:06:37 -0500 From: Bruce Mills To: Editor - Ottawa Sun The very fact that Dr. Hudson was not charged under the Firearms Act shows that neither the cops nor the prosecutors have any faith in this law. They will simply continue with their Keystone Kops routine of attempting to confiscate our private property, and then charge us with non-firearms related offences, such as "obstruction". They will then attempt to further erode our rights by obtaining restraining orders against our freedom of assembly, our freedom of association, our freedom of mobility, and our freedom of expression. Not to mention draining our bank accounts defending ourselves from these shenanigans in court, while they bring the full force and resources of the State against us. Dr. Hudson is a hero and a freedom fighter, who is being persecuted by the State for his political beliefs. If you don't think that this fight is about rights, freedom, and liberty, all you have to do is look at what the Federal Liberal government is trying to get away with, playing fast and loose with this law. Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 02:14:04 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: ARTICLE: Report on gun control on way http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1035777336546&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467 Feb. 1, 2003. 01:00 AM Report on gun control on way TONDA MACCHARLES OTTAWA BUREAU OTTAWA—An outside report on Ottawa's beleaguered gun control program is expected to be delivered to the justice minister tomorrow, a government spokesman said yesterday. The report, by the auditing firm KPMG, was commissioned in early December by Justice Minister Martin Cauchon and was due yesterday. The firm was hired to gather all the numbers of spending on gun control by all federal departments — figures that the federal auditor-general complained the justice department could not provide. "The report is expected by noon Sunday," said Cauchon's spokesman Mike Murphy. "The minister has not reviewed it. After he has reviewed it thoroughly, he will table the full report in Parliament." Murphy said a second report, by a former federal deputy minister of industry, Raymond Hession, is expected mid-month. That report is to recommend ways Ottawa can better structure and manage the program, and account for spending. The program, now estimated to cost at least $1 billion by 2004-05, is under fire. Yesterday, Canadian Alliance gun control critic Garry Breitkreuz released more documents obtained through Access to Information that he said confirm his claims of two years ago that Ottawa is not concerned about accuracy in the gun registry. He cited RCMP documents, saying, "only 18 per cent of guns registered in the system have been verified and 30 per cent of the firearms can't be uniquely identified from the information provided by firearms owners." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 02:51:38 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Great NRA interview with Tony Bernardo http://www.nralive.org/story.cfm?id=2519 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:29:31 -0600 (CST) From: Al Dorans Subject: RFC Ottawa: Letters from a Retired RCMP Officer RFC Ottawa/FED UP Canada Protecting Canadian Freedoms .................................. Dear Firearms Owner, February 2, 2003 Regarding my posting to the Digest, "Messages to Politicians and the Media" (Jan. 24th), I received the enclosed correspondence from retired RCMP Police Officer Jacques Drisdelle who granted approval for its release. Officer Drisdelle communicates his honest opinions on the worth of Bill C-68/FA and expresses genuine concern over the real threat from wayward and out-of-control police officers. Professor Al Dorans Director, RFC Ottawa Chairman, FED UP Canada ......................................................................... Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 00:02:26 -0800 From: J/S Drisdelle Subject: Dear Al, I've just received a copy of your email about police abuse . I am a retired RCMP officer with 29 years of service. I had a very good service record, serving in Ontario, NWT, Yukon and BC with 21 postings. I have been a shooter and hunter all my life. I own guns and always will. Now about what you said. I have to say that I, a retired policeman, fear reprisals if I speak up against these useless gun laws. Just a year before I retired from the force, I wrote newspaper articles about Bill C-68. At the time I was writing a regular feature article in the local rag. I can tell you that I said this bill was useless, a scare tactic and a knee-jerk reaction, bending to political pressure from anti-gun groups. Of course I got reprimanded for saying this and ultimately they put pressure on me. Make no mistake about it, if you piss some policemen off, they will use the law to get you. They might act nice and friendly in your face, but they have ways of putting pressure on anyone they don't like. So much for "community policing" and "listening to the people". I've seen too many abuses of power. Not all policemen are bad, but there is more and more pressure to use the laws to harass whom they see as "subversive" "anti-establishment", "anti-police." If you are ever labeled "anti-police", forget it, you're toast. IT IS VERY REAL. Jacques Drisdelle ....................................................................... From: "Al Dorans" To: "J/S Drisdelle" Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 8:24 PM Subject: RFC Ottawa: Seeking Approval RFC Ottawa/FED UP Canada Protecting Canadian Freedoms ............................... Dear Jacques, Your insightful letter is much appreciated. Thanks kindly. What you are saying, many gun owners are feeling and fearing. Other police officers from all over this country are confirming your views. Make no mistake about it, we are great supporters of the police, law and order, and those cops on the beat who see their duties to serve and protect the people. It's the radical element of the police that concerns us mightily. Also, the power hungry, empire-building Chiefs of Police. Would it be possible to use your letter as an example of what is happeninbg in this country? I approached several other police officers, have received their responses and am awaiting several other emails. For example, if a radio show host had many letters, that might lend credence to the concern for our democratic rights. Much obliged, Professor Al Dorans Director, RFC Ottawa Chairman, FED UP Canada ............................................................................ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:17:54 -0800 From: J/S Drisdelle Subject: Re: RFC Ottawa: Seeking Approval To: Al Dorans Thank You for your reply. Yes, by all means. If my comments can help to make things right, I welcome it. Many Chiefs of Police are supporting Bill C-68 because they do not want to bite the hand that feeds them (financially) Unfortunately these days, politicians have become the "political masters" of the police. Ex-RCMP Commissioner Norman Inkster was the first one to use this term. Politics and politicians are now interfering with the former independence of the police and Police Chiefs do play politics with politicians. I haven't been retired long enought not to keep in touch with several friends in the force. I always like to ask them what they think of the new gun laws. They tell me what I also know, that the gun registry does very little or nothing in reducing violent crime. The smart officers do not rely on the gun registry database when responding to a complaint, whether domestic or other. If they rely on the information they receive, they know they will place themselves in harms way, because the information available is not reliable and never will be. The great majority of street policeman know that the firearms registry is a complete waste of money and poorly thought out. Yes, when dealing with certain individuals with criminal records and criminal behaviours, especially in the area of violence, they can take steps to obtain a "prohibition order" to have them banned from owning, purchasing, borrowing firearms. It's like any other kind of "order", and it's only as good as the individual wishes to obey it. A person illegally and criminally using a firearm is the problem, not the firearm. Bill C-68 is attempting to deal with firearms related crime by addressing firearms and not the real problem, "people" or better yet, "criminals." Bill C-68 is but one step towards complete confiscation of all firearms and contrary to the "do-gooders", nothing about reducing crime. You or I and millions of others who own firearms are not "criminals" and would and will never use them for a criminal purpose. Unfortunately this law has everyting to do with anti-firearms and the advocates behind the law than reality. It's sad when anti-gun advocates can rule other innocent people's lives. Good luck. Jacques Drisdelle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:30:31 -0600 (CST) From: tommyg@bmts.com Subject: my last post In my last post I mistakenly got some names confused. 'Jim' should be Ed. My appologies to the misrepresented and to the rest of you for the confusion tommyg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:32:44 -0600 (CST) From: Michael Ackermann Subject: CSC Report To: Disclosure Dear Sir/Ms, I would like to thank you for your illuminating report on the Canada Safety Council, which I viewed by streaming video from the CBC web site. I enjoyed it and I applaud your incisive investigative reporting technique. I am curious about what seems to me to be an obvious omission from your report. That is the directly contradictory stances taken by Emile Therien and the CSC on the issue of Firearms Safety versus other safety issues such as ATV use, Cell Phone Use While Driving, and Alcohol Limits While Driving. In the case of Firearms, Mr. Therien states that the CFC is strongly in favour of laws that severely curtail the lawful uses of firearms by responsible members of the public in order to achieve some illusory benefit of increased public safety. No where does he offer reliable, peer reviewed evidence to support his stance, just the usual emotional diatribes trotted out by the likes of Kellerman and Wendy Cukier. He goes out of his way to ignore the mountains od data compiled by Statistics Canada, Mauser, Buckner, Lott and others that clearly show that Canadian style gun laws have no effect to deter gun crime or total rates of suicide. In fact, Australia's and Britain's recent experiences show clearly that our kinds of gun laws are responsible for increases in death and injury through firearms abuse. Our own 64 year old handgun registry has cost $650 million and the police will tell you that is has done absolutely nothing to deter gun crime nor allow those responsible to be more easily caught. Geographic and historical precedent shows that gun crime and accidents are reduced when the government sets up conditions to support, encourage, and provide firearms safety training and range access as widely as possible. I therefore find it puzzling that the CSC on the one hand supports responsible freedom of use of cell phones, alcohol while driving and ATVs by children, but is opposed to the same responsible use of firearms by properly screened and trained citizens. This is an obvious double standard, especially when one considers the death rates from automobile crashes involving alcohol and cell phone use, and from children driving ATVs all exceed those by people negligently or criminally abusing firearms by quite a margin. I note that the CSC does not encourage the provision of firearms safety training where it will do the most good: in our schools. The Eddie Eagle Safety Program (Stop! Don't Touch! Leave the area! Tell an adult!) could be taught in all our elementary schools for about $2 million annually. The Canadian Firearms Safety Course could be taught to every Grade Nine student for about $15 million annually. This is a total bill of 11 percent of the current annual costs of the Billion Dollar Boondoggle Gun Registry. These courses have the widespread support of the Responsible Firearms Community (RFC) and have been proven to save lives. Never-the-less, the Federal Justice Minister and the CSC are opposed to providing this training. The RFC has repeatedly tried to interest them in this training, but to no avail. The CSC and the government prefer that our kids get their firearm "education" from television and video games. I would ask you to delve into the CSC and the Coalition for Gun Control and find out who their 'bed partners' are. This will shed some light on their hidden second agendas. You can get a good start by visiting the site: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mikeack/Journalist_Resources.html THank you for your attention. M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) President, St. Mary's Shooters Association Box 3, RR 1, 4132 Sonora Rd. Sherbrooke, NS Canada B0J 3C0 902-522-2172 My email: mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca SMSA URL: www.smsa.ca "Hope for the best, but plan for the worst". ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:34:08 -0600 (CST) From: "Brad Thorarinson" Subject: Re: Column: Gun control works - AND IT"S A BARGAIN From: "Boris Gimbarzevsky" > > There are times when a letter really pisses me off, and Tom Quigly's was one of > those. I find it incomprehensible why the CFG can get away with having their BS > published and not questioned. Anyway, I finally managed to actually write > something relatively short, and sent it off to the Winnipeg Free press via their > electronic letters to the editor submission page (I have no idea if it got > published, but no-one from the Winnipeg free press has been in contact with > me). It was originally submitted to cdn-firearms on 28/1/2003, but apparently > got lost. No, your submission was not published but several rebuttals were , Lex Winram and Gary Mauser were two of the writers. Do not think it was in vain to write. The editors do read the submissions and I'd presume the letters published are somewhat representative of submissions. Also, I have writen letters which have not been published, and then seen a similar sentiment expressed in an editorial in the same paper. The Winnipeg Free Press has a diverse bunch on its editorial board, from liberal apologists to libertarians to socialist-leaning feminists. Some, possibly all of them, are rational ie. capable of being reasoned with. If they see an argument presented which they disagree with but can't refute, possibly they will examine it critically, and accept it. Yeah, I know I'm an optimist, but it does happen. IMO the letter-writing campaign is one of the successes of the RFC over the last few years. No antigun propaganda gets published in Canada now without getting shot at, if not shot down. Brad ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #708 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@sprint.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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