From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #717 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, February 4 2003 Volume 05 : Number 717 In this issue: Re: Chalk up One for the "Good Guys" !! Re: Combing through the findings Re: Telephone Call from House of Commons Re: Combing through the findings NEWS: Consultant says more money needed to make gun registry work NEWS: Five hunters die in boating accident in Newfoundland ARTICLE: Two reports on gun registry don't answer key questions, say critics Re: R v. Lovatt Brothers -In-Arms !! Re: Chalk up One for the "Good Guys" !! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 23:59:11 -0600 (CST) From: Vulcun1isback@aol.com Subject: Re: Chalk up One for the "Good Guys" !! In a message dated 2/3/2003 10:46:53 PM Central Standard Time, owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca writes: > "Finally, the two reports the Minister tabled today still keep Parliament in > the dark. They don't say how long it's going to take to fully implement > the > registry or how much it's going to cost! Worst of all, Parliament and the > public will have to wait years before the Auditor General confirms that the > program is totally ineffective at controlling the criminal use of firearms. > This is no longer a gun control issue - this is a government-out-of-control > issue!" I watched CPAC today and Caught Garry in action doing a fantasic Job as usual, as was his alliance collegues on the issue of Child Protection regarding internet pedophiles and changing laws to protect every child from those who claim "Artistic Merit" defences. One alliance MP (forgert who he was) was Rip Snort'in Mad...and was a marvel to watch !! (I was cheering all the way through his speech ! ) The CA is doing one hell of a Job in the House of Commons !! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:00:46 -0600 (CST) From: Vulcun1isback@aol.com Subject: Re: Combing through the findings In a message dated 2/3/2003 10:46:53 PM Central Standard Time, owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca writes: > "We will have the consolidated report passed by the auditor general." > He said it has been "a lot of work, working with the other departments." > But > KPMG "gave us the certitude that the infrastructure we have in place as > regard > to the financial management, as regard to the expenditures, is a good > infrastructure." > > With a report from Canadian Press .... Will the KPMG Report (and the other one ) be made available for insepection to the public though for insepection and scrutinization .......(unedited) ? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:16:53 -0600 (CST) From: Vulcun1isback@aol.com Subject: Re: Telephone Call from House of Commons Received a unique phone call today between 1 and 1:30 PM from a genetlemen who called from Ottawa from the House Of Commons. This was in regards to a Brief I submitted about Two Months ago on Bill C-17 to the Senate Committee that was responsible for conducting hearings into Bill C-17. I was actually suprised when I got the call though. !! - - He informed me that he would be distributing my Brief to members in The House.( I think that he really meant the Senate though) - -My Brief was basically an argument for the Preservation of the Historical and Cultural hobby of ammunition Reloading. I argued that it was much a part of Canadian heritage as firearms themselves, target shooting,and hunting. All of these hobbies and in cases of days of old "necessities" have been passed on from generation to generation for centuries. - -Banning reloading components such as powder,primers,and slugs would mean to deprive Canadian sportsman of the hobby/pursuit of happiness and cultural heritage that has so long been enjoyed in Canada. - -I also stated that us target shooters have been reloading safely for many ,many years and can make a box of ammo cheaper,better than any factory ammo maker. - -I felt overall this would be a huge infringement upon our Rights and what's worse.... "Would cause a loss of our Canadian Heritage". - - What I also included was the fact that if this law was passed...it would make the Gun Registry revolt look pale in comparison...for almost every shooter I know...Makes their own ammo. !! - - I also pointed out the fact that since they claim this stuff was all about curbing terrorism... they might instead of attempting to ban reloading..place stricter controls on the purchase of "Real Terrorist supplies" . - - I pointed out a Terrorist can go into any store in any city...and buy a 10 gallon tank for propane..then go to any gas station in any city and get it filled. - - Has anyone seen what can happen to a 10 gallon tank of propane when it explodes? ...and they worry about sportsman making their own ammo for target shooting ? ( I actually included these statements- to my suprise..no ones kicked in my door yet...however an odd coincidence....an RCMP undercover unit was parked in the parking lot of my workplace today...called the City Police to investigate as I was unable to leave the building...they spotchecked the unit..and told me the vehicle was an RCMP officer performing a survaillance ( In the back of my mind though I was wondering was he survailling me...or someone else though ? ..anyway it was a suspicious and funny coincidence...at least my wife thought so ) ...Watch out guys...the Gestappo may be watching your every move ,wouldn't suprise me one bit if all our phones are tapped and e-mail monitored.... I mean we all know they monitor this thing...By the way..." Hi guys- I always wondered when the Liberals would enlist "Speech Police" ...Now we know huh ? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:22:18 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: Combing through the findings Vulcun1isback@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/3/2003 10:46:53 PM Central Standard Time, > owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca writes: > > > "We will have the consolidated report passed by the auditor general." > > He said it has been "a lot of work, working with the other departments." > > But > > KPMG "gave us the certitude that the infrastructure we have in place as > > regard > > to the financial management, as regard to the expenditures, is a good > > infrastructure." > > > > With a report from Canadian Press > > .... Will the KPMG Report (and the other one ) be made available for > insepection to the public though for insepection and scrutinization > .......(unedited) ? The Hession Report: http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/en/general_public/news_releases/review_feb2003/review.asp KPMG Report: http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/en/general_public/news_releases/review_feb2003/pdf/final%20report.pdf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:25:56 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: NEWS: Consultant says more money needed to make gun registry work http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/02/03/gunregistry020302 Consultant says more money needed to make gun registry work Last Updated Mon, 03 Feb 2003 22:05:01 OTTAWA - An independent consultant has recommended the federal government spend even more money to make the controversial gun control program work. INDEPTH: Implementing the Firearms Act - the rising cost Raymond Hession's report, tabled in Parliament Monday, said more savings can be made in the $1-billion program, but it needs "a one-time investment to fix key infrastructure and business processes," the government said. Hession and consultants KPMG were appointed to look into the program after the auditor general reported the cost was heading for $1 billion and the government had hidden cost increases. FROM DEC. 3, 2002: Auditor general takes aim at gun registry's $1-billion price tag FROM DEC. 12, 2002: Tories link Martin to gun registry fiasco Opposition politicians called the reports a waste of money. Canadian Alliance MP Garry Breitkreuz complained that the KPMG report did not answer key questions that auditor general Sheila Fraser had raised. She asked about the full costs of the registry, for a full explanation of the overruns, and for a forecast of future costs and revenues. The KPMG report, also tabled Monday, said the Department of Justice has put the necessary systems in place to ensure the financial data about the program is complete, the government said. Among his recommendations, Hession suggested that: the department should provide better public service and reintroduce online registration; an advisory council should be set up to oversee the program; the Miramichi, N.B., and Montreal offices should be consolidated; new software development should be frozen, except for emergency requirements; other steps to improve accountability and financial control should be implemented. Justice Minister Martin Cauchon said he will study the reports and within a few weeks release a plan to further cut costs and improve efficiency . Written by CBC News Online staff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:31:48 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: NEWS: Five hunters die in boating accident in Newfoundland http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/02/03/huntingnfld030203 Five hunters die in boating accident in Newfoundland Last Updated Mon, 03 Feb 2003 21:46:50 MUSGRAVE HARBOUR, NFLD. - Searchers in Newfoundland have found the bodies of five men who drowned off Musgrave Harbour early Monday morning. A sixth person in the hunting party survived. The six men were in a seven-metre open boat heading for the Offer Waddam Islands, about 16 kilometres northeast of Musgrave Harbour. The boat ran into trouble, throwing the men into the frigid water. One man managed to make it to the island and put out a distress call to a nearby boat. Kevin Barnes of the coast guard says the survivor told them what happened. "Apparently they got in too close and somehow the vessel capsized and swamped, and all the crew members on board went into the water. The guy who survived made it to shore in a small open boat they were towing," said Barnes. Among the crew was a father and his four sons. Only one son survived. People in Musgrave Harbour say it's the chance you take when sailing in an area dotted with rocks and shoals. "The sea was a bit rough," said Terry Gillingham who was hunting in another boat about five kilometres from the tragedy, "but it was real foggy. That was the bad thing. A lot of shoal water, a lot of breakers, and before daylight that's not a good thing." Gillingham says despite the risks, people will still venture out to sea in open boats to hunt and fish. Written by CBC News Online staff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:32:49 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: ARTICLE: Two reports on gun registry don't answer key questions, say critics http://ca.news.yahoo.com/030204/6/rnj3.html Monday February 3 7:16 PM EST Two reports on gun registry don't answer key questions, say critics By LOUISE ELLIOTT OTTAWA (CP) - Two reports that were supposed to get to the bottom of the troubles with the government's billion-dollar gun registry don't answer key questions raised by the auditor general, critics charged Monday. Justice Minister Martin Cauchon released the reports in the House of Commons on Monday. The first, a $52,000 audit by the accounting firm KPMG, found no problem with his department's spending practices in the beleaguered Canadian Firearms Centre. The second, a $90,000 report by a private consultant, contains 16 recommendations on how to reduce spending on the registry, which was originally supposed to cost taxpayers just $2 million but is now expected to top $1 billion by 2005. The KPMG audit did not, as Cauchon had indicated it would, tally costs borne by other government departments - information Auditor General Sheila Fraser complained she was unable to get because the Justice Department failed to gather it. Canadians will have to wait until fall for that figure, Cauchon said. "We're working together to make sure we will have the consolidated report and I'm sure we will be able to table the consolidated report this fall," Cauchon said after he tabled the reports. "We will have the consolidated report passed by the auditor general." He said it has been "a lot of work, working with the other departments." But KPMG "gave us the certitude that the infrastructure we have in place as regard to the financial management, as regard to the expenditures, is a good infrastructure." Canadian Alliance MP Garry Breitkreuz called the reports a "waste of taxpayers' money" that don't answer Fraser's key questions. "The minister is just hiding behind his reports, he's still not being up front and keeping Parliament informed. That was what the auditor general complained about, that Parliament is kept in the dark." He accused Cauchon of stalling until he is transferred out of the justice hot seat and the Liberals are well into the distraction of a fall leadership race and a potential election. "He's not taking responsibility because he's not going to be the justice minister. To me this smells of a delay in order to avoid any accountability. The KPMG report confirms findings based on sampling data in public accounts records, but doesn't answer the four key questions of Fraser's audit: - What were the full costs to develop and implement the gun registry? - How were the revenues collected and the refunds made? - A forecast of costs and of revenues: the report looks at costs incurred in 2000-2001 and 2001-2002, but does not give a cost projection. - A complete explanation for the cost overruns. "All KPMG tells us is that the money was spent," Breitkreuz said Monday. "KPMG doesn't really answer any of these questions." The second report, by former top bureaucrat Raymond Hession, offers 16 recommendations to "improve the efficiency of the firearms program and further reduce its cost," Cauchon told the Commons. Among the recommendations: - The appointment of a controller or chief financial officer to oversee the program's spending. - A freeze on expanding computer software (blamed for much of the cost overruns.) - Improved Internet registration services. - A merger of the Quebec processing locations and integration of the program headquarters in Edmonton with the Firearms Registry. "All of his recommendations involve more money," Breitkreuz said of Hession's report. "He's going to come up with more recommendations that inflate the cost even more." Cauchon promised swift action from the government on the recommendations, and reaffirmed that there are no plans to back away from the registry. Conservative Leader Joe Clark also said the reports are a waste of money. "I think we do not need a gun registry, it is not a public safety issue," he said. "It is a terrible waste of money. There has to be a holding to account of the government for its casualness in this matter." Cauchon ordered the reports in December, shortly after Fraser slammed the government for keeping Canadians "in the dark" about the billion-dollar projected cost overrun. Also in December, the government withdrew a controversial request seeking another $72 million for the program. Cauchon then temporarily froze any further money to the program until he saw the results of the KPMG audit. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:46:43 -0600 (CST) From: freefall7@shaw.ca Subject: Re: R v. Lovatt Lee Jasper wrote: It was stated on the CFD: >>I recently was referred info about a R. v. Paul Lovatt case >>that was heard in the Ontario Court of Justice in Hamilton on >>June 4, 2002. The judgement (appeal of a Provincial Court >>decision) was delivered on Nov. 5, 2005. The judges stated: >>"In essence the legislation gives the state the power to take >>private property from an individual who is in lawful >>possession, on the basis that there is a safety issue in >>continued possession, that is, perhaps someone will do >>something at some time in the future." >This doesn't ring a bell with me, Lee. Do you have a link to >the transcript of the case? Chap scooped it off Quicklaw; I hear that it will be added to a site for public distribution. The part I can't figure is why it seems like only a skeleton of a transcript and does not contain any testimony, statements or arguments. The Lovatt decision can be found at: http://www.canlii.org/on/cas/onsc/2002/2002onsc10552.html As for the "skeleton of a transcript...", the only part that is recorded in legal publications are the actual "reasons for judgement", and NOT the transcript, testimony, statements, etc. In some cases the judge will include 'parts' of statements and parts of transcripts to assist in making his decision more clear, which is why some case history is quite lengthy, but transcripts themselves are something that are ordered and purchased separately from anything else (at quite an expense in some cases). Within the judges 'reasons' there will often be a skeleton of the 'arguments' from both sides, but this is generally only to clarify the case and what each side has argued for. One very good site to do legal case searches is found at: http://www.canlii.org In the search field you can enter a name (like "Paul Lovatt), or if you want a general search you can enter a section of the criminal code, and the cases are generally quite current. QuickLaw is another search service, but they do charge a fee for their service. WOAH..... I tend to read the beginning of a case, then the end. Glancing through the Lovatt case to the end, you find the references to the cases that were considered. And OUR case seems to be one of those listed. Hmmmmmmm... Does anyone have an email addy for Edward R. Burlew? He was Paul Lovatt's legal counsel. I am interested in contacting him to see if a transcript is available (to find out the context our case was used in). Linda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:49:43 -0600 (CST) From: Vulcun1isback@aol.com Subject: Brothers -In-Arms !! John Birch, A relatively unknown name in Canada is President of Concealed Carry Inc. . One might say that he is the "Ed Hudson" (By the way Ed that is meant as a compliment) of Chicago. John and his group of CCW supporters pose in picture taken in Chicago where Guns are banned totally. Perhaps Mr. Birch would love to post some News about Lufa's exploits or the treatment Ed Hudson is currently recieving from our Feds. I'm sure he would love to publish it ...once you read this story...you'll probably agree too !! John Birch, who lives in Du Page County, told me that if he came into Chicago to pose for Hot Type he'd be taking his chances. Afterward, he E-mailed me this report: "Photo shoot went off well. 4 men including me packing handguns and displaying in downtown Chicago aka: The Forbidden Zone. I mention this so you know we all took great personal risk to get these photos as each of us faced a class IV felony for our act of defiance against Mayor Daley. Not looking for a prize or reward, but think it's relevant you know we are willing to risk imprisonment for our cause." I asked if I could quote him. "Please do," he replied. http://www.concealcarry.org/chicagoreader.htm Johns website : Concealed Carry Inc. wwwconcealedcarry.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:54:30 -0600 (CST) From: Boris Gimbarzevsky Subject: Re: Chalk up One for the "Good Guys" !! There's no personal attack here, it's just that my threshold for some of the CA totalitarian crap has been exceeded and I am very worried about an opposition party who believes that making simple possession of child pornography a crime is somehow different from a party that advocates making possession of firearms a crime. What got me going was: > I watched CPAC today and Caught Garry in action doing a fantasic Job as >usual, as was his alliance collegues on the issue of Child Protection >regarding internet pedophiles and changing laws to protect every child from >those who claim "Artistic Merit" defences. > >One alliance MP (forgert who he was) was Rip Snort'in Mad...and was a marvel >to watch !! (I was cheering all the way through his speech ! ) > >The CA is doing one hell of a Job in the House of Commons !! Presumably the CA party is incensed because Robin Sharpe put some of his fantasies involving children into writing, and was acquitted of possession of child pornography by the defence of "artistic merit". There are very few occasions on which I agree with the lieberal kangeroo court known as the SCC, but this was one of them. The CA has committed the same logical error that the hoplophobes we've been fighting for years have committed when they confuse gun ownership with firearms homicide. To the average member of the CFGC, the average gunowner is likely viewed in the same light as the average pedophile is by CA MP's. Just as one can possess firearms without every using them to murder someone, people can view child pornography without ever sexually abusing a child. In keeping with the CFGC analogy, we are informed by those who are determined to eradicate child pornography how every time someone views a piece of child pornography, the "child" who is the subject of the photograph is violated yet again. Presumably the "violation" of children that results from police, crown prosecutors and defence lawyers viewing "child pornography" as part of the court process is acceptable, but the private viewing of the same material by a "pedophile" is not. If this makes sense to you, then C-68 must be a masterpiece of logical thought. A child, as defined by the CCC is any individual under the age of 18 years. Any individual who is under the age of 18 years when they participate in a voluntary sex act with another individual, and chose to record this using a video recorder is guilty of the crime of producing child pornography under the law as it currently exists today in Canada. Sexual maturity in homo sapiens is occurring at younger and younger ages, and the youngest pregnant patient I've seen was 12.5 years old when she was close to term. Just last week I saw a 9 1/2 year old whose mother was concerned about precocious puberty, but the pediatrician I sent her to just considered her to be a little ahead of her peers; I would have put her age at 14 had I not had seen the birthdate in her chart. Note to CA puritans, sex is natural and under conditions of good food supplies sexual maturity occurs at a very young age, and burying your head in the sand does nothing to solve the problem of how you convince young people that deferrment of childbearing is in their best interests. Speaking from a rational viewpoint, I can tell "children" that IMO should they act on their immediate biologic urges to be fruitfull and multiply, they are permanently consigning themselves to the lowest rungs of the socioeconomic ladder, and as their life expectancy is far longer than they can imagine at their current age, it won't be a very pleasant life. Fortunately the science of contraception allows me to permit their expression of these primitive urges with actual pregnancy deferred to such time as is compatible with their career choices. Who they chose to have sex with is up to them, and while most sexual relations will occur between "children", it should not surprise anyone if "adult" "child" sexual liasions will occur. The only role of the law in such cases should be to prosecute involuntary or clearly exploitative sexual interactions. When I was 15 years old, I would have been very upset if someone had informed me that I was a "child" and a lot of my early rebellion against society could now be viewed as a revolt against "ageism" (I considered some of my innumerate non-science teachers twice my age to be unworthy of being labelled as adult as at that age I considered the ability to understand mathematics to be the primary defining attribute of adulthood; by this criterion most of the lieberal members of parliament are still "children"). The use of arbitrary age to define whether or not an individual is capable of giving consent for voluntary sexual activity is physiologically meaningless; what is of importance is whether or not the individual is intellectually capable of giving informed consent. This is a far more difficult problem than defining an arbitrary age, and thus disdained by politicians. Where there is some commonality between my views and the CA is when one considers how to deal with pedophiles who involuntarily kidnap children for use as sexual objects. Here, the solution is simple, if they survive a private meeting with the victims relatives arranged to correct discrepancies between the two disparate weltanschaungs, shoot them. The situation is far more complex when it comes to viewing of child pornography. It may be that the sequence of bits that make up a picture represents evidence of a crime, but how is this different than my viewing pictures of the original 1 million mom march (from the JPFO web site)? My viewing of these pictures reinforces my drives to constantly battle totalitarians, but what are we to make of an individual who finds these photos sexually stimulating? IMHO, it should be actual criminal acts that are subject to prosecution rather than ones mere possession of patterns of bits that some people might find distastefull. When the images are totally virtual, the notion of prosecution is absurd. Ones imagination is limitless in scope, and the fraction of wetware time I spend on fantasies of sexual torture of children is zero for all practical purposes. Should someone else chose devote most of their wetware cycles in the exploration of this virtual realm but not enforce their will on children, then they should be free to do so as long as they have the means to support their independant existance. A society that can't understand the distinction between thought and action is fatally flawed and deserves any fate that reality assigns it. Should the CA make the defence of artistic merit void, then I would be liable for prosecution as I own such works as Lolita and Alistair Crowley's "Diary of a Drug Fiend" in which his sexual relations with "children" are prominantly featured. It would be illegal for me to hold onto my personal writings written before I turned 18 regarding various sexual fantasies I had about "children" who were also younger than 18, but were contemporaries of mine at the time. Just because I have had an obsession with recording thoughts for most of my life, even before I legally became an adult, does this make me future criminal? I'm no longer a member of the CA as it was the absurd statements that Stockwell Day made regarding child pornography in 1999 that first made me wonder if I could support this party, and it was his support of and vote in favor of Bill C-36 in 2001 that finally made me tear up my membership card and mail it back to him. The only federal party that comes close to reflecting my views now is the Marijuana Party which appears to be the current instantiation of the Canadian Libertarian party. Before I get flamed by people regarding my views on "child pornography", I suggest that people examine whether their negative emotional reactions to pedophiles stem primarily from their loathing of that tiny minority who prey on "children", especially if involuntary sex acts are involved, or if they are perturbed by the notion that "children" can have sexual feelings. If it is the former, then we have little disagreement in how one deals with convicted pedophiles. If it is the latter, then you should try to honestly recall your childhood sexual feelings to see what you've been repressing or misclassifying all these years before you send an angry email my way. Boris Gimbarzevsky ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #717 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@sprint.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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