From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #743 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, February 9 2003 Volume 05 : Number 743 In this issue: Re: Old application to register firearms? Re: FRT disk Re: ARTICLE: Budget surplus to hit $6B Re: ARTICLE: Arafat gets asinine plea from PETA on intefadeh Confiscation RE: Clifford Olson Billboards Re: Arming Customs Inspectors Re: My Letter to John Manley Re: We Must be a "Real Pain" for the Liberals Re: Re: Kind of late guys It's about who's axe is being gored Fw: Product Liability (Please forward to CFD) [url] CFC online registration seems to be back Column: There's no limit to Liberal deceptions, and no limit to gun registry costs Tax collector to run gun registry; Re: FRT disk Edmonton Gun Show/NFA Dirty Grit fight is brewing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 13:11:02 -0600 (CST) From: "Yannis Marine" Subject: Re: Old application to register firearms? Bruce, I do have applications to register non-restricted firearms JUS675E(99/06/04.03) If this is what you want I can mail you a copy or you can pick it up at my place. Yanni www.yannismarine.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 13:11:52 -0600 (CST) From: "Yannis Marine" Subject: Re: FRT disk Does all this mean someone wants a copy of the FRT disks? I've seen a lot of mail back and forth but no real question or inquiry. Yanni www.yannismarine.ca - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Chicoine" To: Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 7:46 PM Subject: Re: FRT disk > This question of language sounds like a job for Dennis Young, if he is willing > and can make time to help out. > __________ > Paul Chicoine > Non Assumsit Contract, All Rights Reserved, Without Prejudice > _________________________________________________ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Federchuk > To: > Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 9:49 AM > Subject: Re: FRT disk > > > > >Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:32:02 -0600 (CST) > > >From: Andrew Lypen > > >Subject: Re: FRT disk? > > > > > >I believe the FRT disks are a restricted item, available only to approved > > >individuals; such as verifiers. > > > Andy > > > > Ok, but you can't presently become a verifier because the system has > > collapsed. So perhaps the only other way to get the information would be to > > craft an access to information request so specific that the only result > > would be the FRT CD-ROM. Perhaps something like, > > > > "...provide complete reference database of information used in the process > > of verifying firearms..." > > > > I could use some help with the language of the request. > > > > Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 13:12:36 -0600 (CST) From: "Yannis Marine" Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Budget surplus to hit $6B The funny thing that bugs me is that government shows a lot of income in surplus funds but never pay tax on it to the Public(back to us) Yanni www.yannismarine.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 13:13:21 -0600 (CST) From: "Yannis Marine" Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Arafat gets asinine plea from PETA on intefadeh I bet this donkey did not follow the Muslim faith either. Yanni www.yannismarine.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 14:36:43 -0600 (CST) From: Rae Baker Subject: Confiscation We now have weapons that are outlawed. Soon the government will outlaw another one and then another and then we will not be able to have any and will be at the mercy of any police force, or government force.. Not that all the have the word FORCE as part of their title. GOT TO GET RID OF THE LIBERALS! Rae Baker Burlington,Ont Key West Fl/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 16:23:29 -0600 (CST) From: "Ed Sieb" Subject: RE: Clifford Olson Billboards On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Bruce Mills wrote: > [...] I am still f@&*ing mad at that stupid cow Caplan and her > comments before the last election: "The Alliance Party if (sic) > full of racists and bigots". > > How do you fight crap like that, except with the same kind of fire? > > I know it's wrong, I know it's a bad idea, I know it's sinking to their > level, but it would be *so* satisfying to do it. I agree as well, and to this end would recommend reading the Boy-Pundit, Carville's Bum-Boy, Warren (the Weasel) Kinsella. Pick up a copy of his book "Kicking Ass in Canadian Politics". It is a must read book for all conservative minded individuals who want to find out how the Liberals and Chretien have succeeded in creating the "one-party state" we find ourselves with today. All his dirty tricks are detailed in this one book. If you cannot find it in the remaindered book bins for less than $4.99, (or less, hopefully), then just steal it. Ed Sieb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 17:36:08 -0600 (CST) From: "Marc Thibault" Subject: Re: Arming Customs Inspectors Rick Lowe wrote: > Wrong. I can think of two right off the top of my head ... if I remember > correctly. Gotta do better than that. A heavily exaggerated CEUDA incident report (Kingman; Thank you Andy) covering over twenty years has only one murder--that couldn't have been prevented if the CI had been armed to the teeth. Except for a half-dozen minor assaults, the rest of the "incidents" are of the wildly speculative "things might have gone badly if ..." type. This CEUDA report supports my contention that a CI on the job is safer than a Torontonian at any time, and infinitely safer than a black nurse on her way home from a late shift at the Toronto General. On the other hand, as I've said before, I'm in favour of allowing any responsible adult--including a customs inspector--to carry a gun for defensive purposes. I just don't buy the argument that CIs have a special need. \_____<><><>==== / _/-' No Victims Here 69BC A7EE AC28 CFD6 6A3D BF7E 9548 EA04 5C65 9F71 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 17:58:07 -0600 (CST) From: Vulcun1isback@aol.com Subject: Re: My Letter to John Manley Dear Mr.Manley : - Recently you "rightly accused" Paul Martin of not accepting responsibility for his part involving cost overruns to the Federal Gun Registry. - Having said that, Canadians will now be focused on you to prove "How Responsible you will be" to ensure this "incredibly failed social engineering experiment" is finally laid to rest for good, and no more tax dollars will be diverted from more important programs and wasted on the nonsense of registering honest law-abiding citizens long guns- which with all the rhetoric regarding the term "public safety" -Mr.Couchon has yet to explain to Canadians how he feels this registry will make "even one Canadian safer". - I have often heard Mr.Couchon confuse Gun Control with the Gun Registry (in the House of Commons) Canadian Gun Owners are all for Gun Control , in fact they were practicing safe handling and storage of firearms long before any Liberal came to power in this country. Basic screening requirements,mandatory safety training are all very good ideas, which in fact enjoy the full support of the Recreational Firearms Community in Canada. But all those measures were already in place long ago, and have nothing to do with the Gun Registry itself. - All Canadian firearms owners want is to be left alone to enjoy their Canadian shooting heritage sports - they're already complying with the strictest gun laws in North America to date.... it's time they were left alone to enjoy their hobbies in peace, and the Federal Government find much more important issues to squabble about that actually effect "real dangers" to Canadian Health and welfare...like Heart Disease,Cancer,etc - Now its time for you to "Prove to Canadians that you are not a hypocrite" and show how "Responsible" you are. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 18:54:21 -0600 (CST) From: Vulcun1isback@aol.com Subject: Re: We Must be a "Real Pain" for the Liberals When I see people like Martin Couchon get visibly upset in the House of Commons , I have to admit I do take some pride in knowing that there are many,many people here on this digest, who have aided to Martins current state of anxiety by their letter writing campaigns to various media. Nothing is more pleasurable than witnessing a Liberal lose his cool when he is being cornered by the Opposition in a series of questions about the Gun Registry and the Reports on the Gun Registry. Let's keep up the pressure guys...the Liberals are visibly starting to "crack" (they just can't bear this continued pressure from the public) ..and I know we are all waiting for that "Happy Ending" to arrive (when they either give in and scrap it...or we elect another Government and oust the criminals out of office) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:35:19 -0600 (CST) From: Robert LaCasse Subject: Re: Re: Kind of late guys Which is what the disarmament of the Americas seems to be all about. There is a well engraved path that seems to repeat itself all over again, and os a well known varmint called NWO types. Of course the disarmament laws don't seem to be written in Taliban by the Al Quaida fundamentalists...it doesn't pertain to them! We are the target of all types of terrorists, it's all gotta stop pretty damn drop-dead quick...or else.......I mean we are being disarmed, and some guy on TV says America needs U the Civilian to catch these crooks...yeah right We as legal firearms owners are to respect, by some kind'a law, the "people" who spit in your face and shit in your breakfast on a regular basis? BTW: What are the green registration papers worth these days, or are they obsolete already? Yours in Justice Bob On Sat, 8 Feb 2003 08:30:20 -0600 (CST), you wrote: |>------------------------------ |> |>Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 21:17:28 -0600 (CST) |>From: Vulcun1isback@aol.com |>Subject: Re: Kind of late guys |> |>In a message dated 2/7/2003 9:06:00 AM Central Standard Time, |>owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca writes: |> |> |>> Canada Customs front-line officers are calling for instant access to |>> police and immigration databanks to stop criminals and terrorists from |>> slipping into the country. |> |> ..I'd say they're about two years too late ...Most of them are probably |>already here by now and well entrenched in their activities. |> |>------------------------------ Triad Productions-Fantalla(c)~EZine~ParaNovel www>> http://triad.virtualave.net/siteindex.html off-net>> http://triad.virtualave.net/contact.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:36:15 -0600 (CST) From: Lee Jasper Subject: It's about who's axe is being gored It was said on the CFD: >With a Liberal government willing to trample on and eliminate >our rights in C-68 and other new legislation, The good ole government POG effect. . . plus the flaky opinion surveys verify that most citizens will trade off our rights for whatever (albeit false) re-assurance they can gain. >why are the Police not saying ... hey there wait a minute, you >are eliminating this right or that right that is covered by the >charter. In Ontario's case, , the police are simply in step with their political masters. Saying one thing - - but not really carrying through. They've become masters of double-speak. Like the politicians, they are most loyal to the 'brotherhood' - not to the people they serve. Plus, the Charter of Rights is a huge inconvenience to many police officers. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:37:16 -0600 (CST) From: Ed Tait Subject: Fw: Product Liability (Please forward to CFD) Suing gun manufacturers? Does this mean that those who lost loved ones on 9/11 can sue Boeing? Tom Falls ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:37:58 -0600 (CST) From: Rod Regier Subject: [url] CFC online registration seems to be back http://www.cfc.gc.ca/en/e-services/ I logged in and looked around a bit. Seems to be the same as the pre-01-Jan-2003 version. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:41:19 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Column: There's no limit to Liberal deceptions, and no limit to gun registry costs PUBLICATION: Edmonton Journal DATE: 2003.02.09 EDITION: Final SECTION: Opinion PAGE: A16 COLUMN: Lorne Gunter BYLINE: Lorne Gunter SOURCE: The Edmonton Journal Cauchon misleads the House again: There's no limit to Liberal deceptions, and no limit to gun registry costs Being Liberal means never having to say you're wrong - ever. Or ever having to reform your ways, even when you're caught perpetrating a billion-dollar fraud - especially when you are caught perpetrating a billion-dollar fraud. You don't even feel an obligation to stop lying to ... er, um, misleading the House of Commons. A billion here, two billion there, so what if it goes mostly to Liberal constituencies and donors? A falsehood, a coverup, a sneer at voters, a shrug - it's all justified. If not for you and your party, national affairs would fall into the hands of ... well, it's just too scary to think of anyone else in charge of Canadian government. So all manner of deception and malfeasance can be written off if it keeps you, the effulgent Liberal party, high in the polls and in charge of Ottawa. You are so good for the country, so morally, culturally and intellectually superior, the rules don't (and shouldn't) apply to you. So it was no surprise this week -- no surprise at all -- that Justice Minister Martin Cauchon misled the Commons yet again on the cost of the gun registry. Cauchon tabled two reports, which together cost taxpayers nearly $200,000. The first was a cursory audit by the accounting firm of KPMG. The second was an administrative review by Ray Hession, a former senior civil servant, and now a respected public-management consultant. The minister tabled them as though he were doing MPs and Canadians a favour. He told the Commons, "I did not have to table these two reports in the House; I did it because I want to work in a very transparent way." And don't think we plebeians aren't grateful, Your Magnanimousness. But of course, Cauchon being a Liberal and the subject being the gun registry, transparency was the last thing on his mind. He withheld the 65 pages of supporting documents that went along with Hession's 27-page report. And guess what. Within those 65 pages are budget projections that show the gun registry is still 10 years away from being completely functional and will cost another $541 million before it is fixed. So the $2-million program, which mushroomed to $1 billion, will really cost $1.5 billion before it is fully up and running. And that is very likely an underestimate. Liberals and reporters used to laugh at Canadian Alliance MP Garry Breitkreuz, his party's firearms critic, when he would predict that setting up the registry would cost $1 billion. Now, if Breitkreuz were to start predicting it would consume $2 billion, who would scoff -- other than the Liberals, of course? Over the next two years, according to Hession, the registry will cost nearly 25 per cent more than the $175 million claimed by the Liberals. Hession pegs the total at nearer $220 million. Both projections put the lie to Cauchon's Dec. 5 claim in the Commons that "the big spending is behind us." The big spending is clearly anything but over. The computer system is still a mess, and won't be corrected until at least the end of this year, in Hession's estimation. Then there is the need to verify every single gun registered. As Hession concluded, "I don't care if you put Superman in charge," finishing the registry would still be "a tough, tough job." Breitkreuz has asked the Speaker of the Commons to censure Cauchon for "deceiving the House and its members, falsifying documents" and impeding the ability of MPs to perform their duties by supplying them with misleading information. It is absolutely clear Cauchon is guilty in an moral sense. What is unclear is whether he did, technically, violate Commons rules. The Speaker is expected to rule this week. What is also clear is that Cauchon and the Liberals intend to use Hession's report, as well as the one from KPMG, to whitewash their decision to keep the registry open. A government with any shame at all would have declared a mea culpa after the auditor general's report in December, begged for forgiveness, then locked the doors and shuttered the windows of the registry. But not the Liberals. They thought up this elaborate scheme, so they are sure it is therefore enlightened. If it is not working, the fault must lie other than with the basic concept. Two weeks ago, Cauchon insisted the Liberals would bull ahead. "We will keep proceeding with gun control because it is about public safety." So Friday, the minister claimed to have dismissed Gary Webster, the chief executive of the Canadian Firearms Centre, as the first step in a major overhaul aimed at correcting the flaws in the registry. Except, of course, Webster wasn't dismissed. He was kicked upstairs to become a special adviser to the deputy minister of Justice. Cauchon said Webster's shuffle was just the first of "some tough decisions" he will make as he prepares an "action plan for the gun control program." Yes, tough decisions; tough in the same sense that Webster's promotion was a firing, tough in the same way that the minister's failure to divulge another half-billion in registry spending was "transparency," and in the same way that the registry is about "public safety." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:42:20 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Tax collector to run gun registry; PUBLICATION: Toronto Star DATE: 2003.02.08 SECTION: NEWS PAGE: A09 SOURCE: Toronto Star BYLINE: Tonda MacCharles DATELINE: OTTAWA Tax collector to run gun registry; Justice minister appoints Bill Baker Wants to make program 'user-friendly' A financial troubleshooter with 24 years experience running federal and provincial programs is set to take over the troubled gun licensing and registry system as Ottawa scrambles to restore public confidence in the program. Justice Minister Martin Cauchon has appointed senior Customs and Revenue bureaucrat Bill Baker- one of the top tax and customs collectors- as chief executive officer of the Canadian Firearms Centre, the Star has learned. The move comes as new numbers emerge showing legislative delays in streamlining operations of the gun-control program are costing Ottawa up to $3.5 million a month. That figure means the government has incurred about an extra $80.5 million in costs since March, 2001 when the legislation to amend the Firearms Act was first tabled, only to stall in Parliament. Government sources told the Star, and House leader Don Boudria later confirmed, that delays in passing the bill to streamline regulations and create a Commissioner of Firearms within the justice department are costing up to $3.5 million each month. Boudria said yesterday he hopes the bill will finally be passed before the end of February. The legislative delays have also contributed to design delays for a new firearms database- and an independent consultant warned Ottawa last week that using the old, outdated, unwieldy and inflexible computer database costs Ottawa about $1 million a month. "Over the coming days I'll have some tough decisions to make as I prepare my action plan for the gun-control program," said Cauchon. "Bill Baker has a proven track record and a reputation for getting the job done. He'll help us turn the page in creating a more user-friendly and cost-effective program." The Firearms Act amendments were first tabled by then-justice minister Anne McLellan as part of an omnibus bill that included new Internet-luring offences and changes to animal-cruelty laws. That bill has been split twice in its plodding course through Parliament. The amendments were largely technical changes that will, for example, stagger licence renewals and make it easier to register the transfer or importation of firearms, but will reduce the amount of data to be collected, analyzed and stored by Ottawa's cumbersome computerized gun registry database. The long delays in passing the changes are typical of the hold-ups that have plagued the controversial gun-control law every step of the way and, the government argues, have contributed to the unanticipated huge cost overruns that the auditor-general criticized. The entire program, which requires all owners be personally licensed and all guns and gun transfers be registered, has cost nearly $800 million to date, and will cost anywhere from $1.2 billion to $1.3 billion over 15 years, up from the net cost of $2 million then-justice minister Allan Rock predicted in 1995. A Senate committee last fall sent the firearms amendments back to the Commons in a slightly amended version. Cauchon is now considering 16 recommendations to streamline the gun-registry system, and has enlisted Baker's help to manage the change and give new credibility to the effort. Baker, who until Thursday was the assistant commissioner of compliance at Customs and Revenue, has expertise in financial and technical matters, as well as experience in service delivery. He replaces Gary Webster, who held the top job for two years. He will remain in the department as a senior adviser to the deputy minister of justice on firearms. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:44:22 -0600 (CST) From: "Paul Chicoine" Subject: Re: FRT disk Yes and No Yanni. I am sure many are interested in the information contained on the FRT. Just from the point of view of firearms owners or for those who collect firearms it may be a useful source of information to satisfy curiosity or supplement the home library. The issue at hand is availability and proprietary rights as opposed to bootleg copies. Is this an available document like the Hession Report or the AG's report? What is the status? __________ Paul Chicoine Non Assumsit Contract, All Rights Reserved, Without Prejudice _________________________________________________ - ----- Original Message ----- From: Yannis Marine To: Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 2:11 PM Subject: Re: FRT disk > > Does all this mean someone wants a copy of the FRT disks? > I've seen a lot of mail back and forth but no real question or inquiry. > Yanni > www.yannismarine.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:45:11 -0600 (CST) From: awpaob@telus.net Subject: Edmonton Gun Show/NFA Attended Saturday's show, Very nice crowd people enjoying the displays and the news that Mr Gary Webster was no longer director of CFC. At the LUFA table a large number of people showing their support both verbally and with cold hard cash, also noted Western Canada Concept table drawing people to get involved politically at the Provincial level. An NFA presence today a table manned by a Mr Jeff Braun a nice young gentleman who informed me when I discussed the NFA problems with him re Audit, Elections membership etc that he had been informed that everything was fine and membership was up over the last two years, Asked why he continued to support Hinter/Tomlinson and Butts as executive he Stated as a life member he had no choice but to try and protect his "Investment". However no sign of Hinter or Tomlinson etc to answer my questions again at this show possibly they will show up on Sunday. Al NFA#4882s "FREEDOM" For those who Fought, Bled and Died For It " FREEDOM " has a FLAVOR THE PROTECTED will Never Know or Savor. Anonymous ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:46:06 -0600 (CST) From: "jim davies" Subject: Dirty Grit fight is brewing Dirty Grit fight is brewing When Allan Rock pulled out of the Liberal leadership race, many people assumed that Manley would accept the inevitable and back out as well ... but now it looks as if his troops are gearing up for a fight with the well-entrenched Martin forces By GREG WESTON -- Sun Media ...The evening before, Martin had drawn a crowd of over 800, a remarkable showing in a province where it has long been held that two Grits in a phone booth is a Liberal convention. But Martin was barely off the podium when Manley was in front of the microphones, publicly accusing the former finance minister of trying to duck his responsibility for runaway spending in the gun registry fiasco. Ouch! more: http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/weston.html ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #743 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@sprint.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) If you find this service valuable, please consider making a tax-deductible donation to the freenet we use: Saskatoon Free-Net Assoc., P.O. Box 1342, Saskatoon SK S7K 3N9 Phone: (306) 382-7070 Home page: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/ These e-mail digests are free to everyone, and are made possible by the efforts of countless volunteers. Permission is granted to copy and distribute this digest as long as it not altered in any way.