From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #744 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, February 9 2003 Volume 05 : Number 744 In this issue: TorStar: Editorial: Plastic we don't need Re: Fw: Product Liability (Please forward to CFD) Re: Arming Customs Inspectors Re: Edmonton Gun Show/NFA Mass murder... Re: FRT disk Federal Prosecution Service Deskbook and public safety Error rate Re: Federal Prosecution Service Deskbook GO VOTE - Big Brother is winning... NewsWire: Canadian suicide experts focus on finding solutions Re: Federal Prosecution Service Deskbook and public safety Letter to Mississauga News ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 14:28:26 -0600 (CST) From: freefall7@shaw.ca Subject: TorStar: Editorial: Plastic we don't need Editorial: Plastic we don't need The Star (Toronto) - Feb. 9, 2003. 01:00 AM Immigration Minister Denis Coderre's fascination with the idea of a national identity card is difficult to fathom. Canadians don't even have such a card yet, and never should. But there he was, asking a Commons committee to consider compiling the cards' personal information in a government database should the scheme go ahead. This might include fingerprints or eye scans. To be fair, Coderre has called for a serious public debate on the ID card proposal. Open discussion of such a touchy issue is vital, as politicians in Australia and New Zealand found out in the 1980s and '90s. They were forced to back off after a furious public outcry. No surprise there. One of our most cherished freedoms under the British common-law legacy is the right to go about our business as private citizens without having to account to the authorities. There are, of course, exceptions: Motorists, gun-owners, anglers and hunters all carry licences. But we don't have to equip ourselves with an official document to walk down the street. Beyond the freedom issue, there's valid concern about the wealth of personal information that a national identity database would contain. Such riches might prove too great a temptation to criminals, or to Big Brother. An ID card might make for easier entry to the U.S. as borders are tightened in the wake of the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. But 8 million Canadian passports are in circulation. More could be issued if need be. To ease privacy concerns, Coderre promises greater protection against identity fraud, which he says costs $2.5 billion annually and hits 12,000 people per year. But a huge national identity database would cost far more. Canada's population is more than 31 million. And the feds are spending $1 billion just to register 2.3 million firearms owners and their guns. Still, the greatest cost of national ID cards would be to basic rights. Less than two weeks ago, in his annual report, Privacy Commissioner George Radwanski lashed out at Coderre's "abhorrent" plan. It would be a grave and needless intrusion, he warned. Rather than hinder terrorists, it would limit freedoms. He's right. What identity card systems do best is increase the power of bureaucrats over peoples' lives. Canadian wallets are bulging with plastic cards. This is one too many. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 14:33:12 -0600 (CST) From: LawrenceAWehren@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: Product Liability (Please forward to CFD) In a message dated 2/9/03 1:37:25 PM, cdsmail@shaw.ca writes: <> Maybe they can sue the manufacturers of the "Box Cutters" that were used as weapons to hijack the aircraft. Or, why not sue everybody? start at the ticket seller, then the security company, then the air traffic controllers, then the Stewardesses, then the Captain of the plane, then Boeing, then the World Trade center for being in the way, then the architect that designed the building (as it should be able to survive the crash), then the construction crew, building permit issuing office, building inspector etc. etc. etc. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 14:34:40 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Lowe Subject: Re: Arming Customs Inspectors "Marc Thibault" said: > Gotta do better than that. A heavily exaggerated CEUDA incident > report (Kingman; Thank you Andy) covering over twenty years has only > one murder--that couldn't have been prevented if the CI had been > armed to the teeth. One Inspector was found beaten to death in the bonded area at a commercial truck crossing. The other was beaten or stabbed doing marine work on the St. Lawrence. I'm not sufficiently interested in the subject to go find the finer details. The bottom line is that using the formula of "x years without a murder - and the ones that happened couldn't have been prevented if the victim had been heavily armed", it follows that most of our police forces shouldn't be armed. When was the last West Vancouver, CP Rail, Medicine Hat, Delta, New Westminster, etc constable murdered? And by the same token, if you wish to pursue that argument, most private citizens have no need to be armed either. Justification for being armed would be done on demographic risk factors. For victims who were statistically unlikely to become victims... well, too bad. > Except for a half-dozen minor assaults, the rest of the "incidents" are of > the wildly speculative "things might have gone badly if ..." type. Being put in the hospital is not a "minor assault" - if I knew Don Ashby's phone number in the Lower Mainland, you could talk to him about being the victim of "minor assaults". And things are indeed going to "go badly" more often if Customs Inspectors ever stop their historical response to violent criminals and threats - simply step away and let them cross the border, flee, or whatever else. The issue of arming peace officers - like Customs Inspectors - is not identical to the question of allowing people to be armed for self defense. Customs Inspectors are charged with enforcing well over a hundred different pieces of federal legislation - including the Criminal Code - at the borders, and they are paid to do so. They are theoretically expected to be proactive in doing their jobs - not step out of the way when there are indications that a criminal or suspected criminal will become violent. The reality is that since Customs Inspectors were disarmed back in the 30's, they have been told that when confronted by a potentially violent situation, they supposed to just step away and let it go. My opposition to arming Customs Inspectors is that many of them never signed on to proactively enforce the law and use force if necessary - and when they did sign on, it was very evident to them that they wouldn't have to. Until you change the hiring criteria for outside officers, have a transition period to move the unwilling into the Long Rooms or whatever, Customs Inspectors should not be armed. Arming the unwilling and expecting them to aggressively enforce the law when they weren't hired under those conditions is a recipe for disaster. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 14:35:45 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Lowe Subject: Re: Edmonton Gun Show/NFA awpaob@telus.net wrote: > Attended Saturday's show, Very nice crowd people enjoying the displays and > the news that Mr Gary Webster was no longer director of CFC. Just curious Al, but why do people think replacing Webster with a tax man is a step forward? > At the LUFA table a large number of people showing their support both > verbally and with cold hard cash, also noted Western Canada Concept table Did they put the LUFA table beside the NFA table. Were they equally as busy? > An NFA presence today a table manned by a Mr Jeff Braun a nice young > gentleman who informed me when I discussed the NFA problems with him re > Audit, Elections membership etc that he had been informed that everything > was fine and membership was up over the last two years. So did he appear to believe that everything was fine despite the fact that as a life member he can't have helped but to notice that there's been no elections in quite some time now nor any of the required annual financial statements? Was he able to tell you where the rifle donated to the NFA for auction went - or did he care? Was he able to explain to you how NFA censorship of its' members is consistent with the concept of democracy and fairness? Was he able to explain to you why he feels it is okay for Hinter to be collecting a salary contrary to NFA bylaws, along with the shiny Jeep SUV? Or does this nice chap simply fall into the category of what Stalin described as "useful idiots"? > continued to support Hinter/Tomlinson and Butts as executive he Stated as a > life member he had no choice but to try and protect his "Investment". Now there's a logical fallacy. He's actively helping the two corrupt dictators who are running the NFA into the ground put the NFA out of business. In effect, he's ensuring that Hinter and Tomlinson are able to continue ruining the NFA, to the point that his "Life Membership" will probably end in a few years when the NFA ceases to be while he is still a very young man. > However no sign of Hinter or Tomlinson etc to answer my questions again at > this show possibly they will show up on Sunday. You didn't expect those two jellyfish to show up, did you? They'd each have to grow about 30 feet of guts, a yard of spine, and a pair before they ever did that. Those two feel much more comfortable hiding in the dark and remaining out of sight - except for when they're hobnobbing with Liberal politicians of course. Birds of a feather and all that stuff. Maybe they're in Ottawa trying to cut a deal for themselves with the Liberals? If you see a Browning BPCR or something similar there, grab a business card from the guy. I want to build a 40-60 Maynard, but those reproductions new are far too rich for my present means. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 14:51:58 -0600 (CST) From: freefall7@shaw.ca Subject: Mass murder... Story in today's paper "Mayor's photo-radar idea not up to speed when it comes to racing Jon Ferry (The Province - Sunday, February 09, 2003)" has this little gem: "Sure, it makes sense to bring back photo radar -- about as much as it does to set up a national gun registry to control mass murder." Linda ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 14:57:12 -0600 (CST) From: "Yannis Marine" Subject: Re: FRT disk FRT Licencing Agreement The commissioner of the RCMP maintains sole ownership of software package known as the FRT. The Commissioner delegates this authority to the registrar of the CFR, a component of the information and Identification Service Directorate, within the RCMP Headquarters corporate structure. The Commissioner's representative maintains, solely the right to distribute the data and the associated images of this automated application, as well as all-inclusive materials, in the format in which it is presented. You are expressly prohibited from copying, duplicating, reproducing, or otherwise transferring the software and materials for any purpose whatsoever, unless you transfer the software and the materials along with the disk to another person who agrees to be bound by the terms of the licence, and you retain no portion thereof, or any copy thereof, in any form other than any additional copies of this disc that you rightfully posses. This transfer must be under the authority of the Commissioner's representative. This software and the materials contained within may not be modified, networked, loaned, sold or distributed, or any portion thereof or prepare any derivate works based upon them. You may not electronically copy or transfer this software or the materials from one computer to another over a network or otherwise. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:50:27 -0600 (CST) From: Randy Schmidt Subject: Federal Prosecution Service Deskbook and public safety Based on memory, in an earlier Digest, Bruce Mills asked if anyone knew of a legal limit on the concept of 'public safety'. I don't, but have found one of the reasons Justice Ministers keep repeating 'public safety'and 'values' like a broken record. At 'http://canada2.justice.gc.ca' then 'Resource Centre', then 'Publications', then 'F' is the Federal Prosecution Service Desk Manual, an approx. 600 page PDF file. Make sure you are looking at the year 2000 manual, not the 1993 one that pops up at some sites. A newer manual is expected out "soon". This Federal manual will take two days out of your life to read (I think that is what lawyers are hired for), so have listed the specific page locations that seemed the most interesting. At location 1.2 is "the Supreme Court of Canada has held that the objective of the criminal law is to maintain a just, peaceful and safe society" "...Our criminal law is also a system of values". At 3.5.2 the Auditor General has broad discretion in the public interest, i.e. he can not prosecute if that is what he wants. At 11.2.1 the police are politically independent. At 11.3.1 is pre-charge screening? At 26.1 anyone can 'lay an information' with a Prosecutor. At 31 is a chapter on FIREARMS AND OTHER OFFENSIVE WEAPONS. At 31.3.4 is public denunciation of the use of these weapons (the only specific denunciation in the entire manual). Randy Schmidt ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:53:50 -0600 (CST) From: Ron Billingsly Subject: Error rate I am in sympathy with your view to NOT register any guns with the government. One way to defeat this registry database is to salt or corrupt it with false registration records. e.g. Bill regiters a sale of a rifle to Tom who in turn registers the same firearm sale to George who in turn registers the the same rifle to Harry who then Registers tHis Sale to Etc .... Etc .... Etc..... who will register this firearm to "Bill the original owner. with an organized effort this process can overload the database files with bills of sale and new registrations. In addition to this system you can create ownership records by the millions on firearms that do NOT exist then file loss or stolen records and claims. If you refuse to register weapons you offer tools to the government, however if you over register or pass rifle around canada at a furious rate millions and millions of transfer docs, you are complying .... but the government can't keep up and this will break the bank. Concerned Canadian Good Luck! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:43:34 -0600 (CST) From: Edward Hudson Subject: Re: Federal Prosecution Service Deskbook Randy Schmidt wrote: > >One of the reasons Justice Ministers keep repeating 'public > safety'and 'values' like a broken record. This is an excellent resource, if, as you suggest, one has the time to read all the information provided. http://canada2.justice.gc.ca/en/dept/pub/index.html "F" Federal Prosecution Service Deskbook PDF Sincerely, Eduardo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:44:20 -0600 (CST) From: freefall7@shaw.ca Subject: GO VOTE - Big Brother is winning... GO VOTE: http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/ Q1: Should Canada adopt national ID cards with biometric identifiers, such as a thumbprints or iris scans, to combat the problem of identity theft? Total Votes for this Question: 8504 So far, 59% have voted for Yes, anything to keep people from being me So far, 36% have voted for No, it's Big Brother So far, 3% have voted for Don't know So far, 2% have voted for Don't care ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:44:58 -0600 (CST) From: freefall7@shaw.ca Subject: NewsWire: Canadian suicide experts focus on finding solutions Canada NewsWire - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Canadian Institutes of Health Research Attention News Editors: Canadian suicide experts focus on finding solutions Themes to guide research over next 10 years established at workshop MONTREAL, Feb. 9, 2003 /CNW/ - Canadian researchers have taken the first crucial step in establishing a national, collaborative agenda on research related to suicide following a two-day workshop held in Montreal this weekend. Over 45 of Canada's top suicide researchers gathered to determine a research focus to find solutions for one of the leading causes of death for young Canadians. "The key will be to ensure that new research findings are applied to policy and made widely available to health practitioners across Canada," said Dr. Remi Quirion, Scientific Director of the Institute of Neurosciences, Mental Health and Addiction (INMHA). The workshop, co-organized by Health Canada and the INMHA, one of the Canadian Institutes of Health Research (CIHR), brought together specialists from both the social and neurological aspects of suicide. "Collaboration of experts and other stakeholders is important for developing knowledge needed to address the many contributing factors underlying suicide," said Dr. Kevin Keough, Chief Scientist for Health Canada. "Health Canada has a considerable role to play in helping to shape the research agenda. The Office of the Chief Scientist is pleased to have collaborated with CIHR in sponsoring this workshop." "Forging partnerships and bringing experts from various fields together will allow us to find ways of helping people who need it most," said Dr. Quirion, who is also Scientific Director of the Douglas Hospital in Verdun, Que. "We're looking for innovative ways of helping people who are thinking about committing suicide. Recognizing potential warning signs, both in behaviour and in the brain, and helping loved ones cope with these situations are crucial." Workshop participants identified six major themes for their report -- expected to be published within 14-21 days. These include: suicide in social and cultural contexts, evidenced-based standards, mental health promotion, multi-dimentional models explaining suicide, spectrum of suicidal behaviours and a national database for suicide-related research. "Scientists and researchers specializing in suicide face a number of challenges," added Dr. Quirion. "By identifying and recognizing the cultural and demographic realities that underline suicide in Canada, we believe we will define orientations that will help researchers in their work, especially social and neurological approaches." Although a national agenda on suicide-related research had yet to be established, Canadian provinces and communities have been actively involved in advancing this agenda through a combination of education, skill development, advocacy, crisis response, prevention programs, bereavement support and clinical services. The burden of suicide in Canada, meanwhile, is heavy: - In 1998, suicide was the leading cause of death for men between the ages of 25 and 29, as well as 40 and 44, and for women aged 30 to 34; - Men are four times more likely than women to complete suicide, in large part due to the use of more lethal means; - Aboriginal populations lost three times as many potential years of life to suicide as did Canadians overall in 1999; - There is a wide variation in suicide rates across different Aboriginal communities; - One-third of Canada's suicides occur in Quebec; - Suicide is the single greatest cause of violent death around the globe, according to the World Health Organization (WHO). ABOUT Douglas Hospital Affiliated to McGill University and to the World Health Organization, the Douglas Hospital is home to the most important Research Centre in mental health in Canada, where more than 60 scientists and research clinicians work to better understand the causes of mental illness. ABOUT Institute of Neurosciences, Mental Health and Addiction CIHR's Institute of Neurosciences, Mental Health and Addiction supports research to enhance mental health, neurological health, vision, hearing and cognitive functioning and to reduce the burden of related disorders through prevention strategies, screening, diagnosis, treatment, support systems and palliation. Associated research will advance our understanding of human thought, emotion, behaviour, sensation, perception, learning and memory. CIHR is Canada's premier agency for health research. Its objective is to excel, according to internationally accepted standards of excellence, in the creation of new knowledge and its translation into improved health for Canadians, more effective health services and products and a strengthened health care system. ABOUT CIHR The Canadian Institutes of Health Research (CIHR) is Canada's premier agency for health research. Its objective is to excel, according to internationally accepted standards of scientific excellence, in the creation of new knowledge and its translation into improved health for Canadians, more effective health services and products and a strengthened health care system. - -30- For further information: Stephanie Lassonde, Douglas Hospital, (514) 835-3392; Justin Kingsley, INMHA-CIHR, (613) 297-7190 Canadian Institutes of Health Research has 78 releases in this database. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- General Inquiries - cnw@newswire.ca Technical Issues - webmaster@newswire.ca © 2002 Canada NewsWire Ltd. All rights reserved. http://www.newswire.ca/releases/February2003/09/c8307.html - --Boundary_(ID_X/M1H0kH2D0oGU03IgrTvA)-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:10:16 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: Federal Prosecution Service Deskbook and public safety Randy Schmidt wrote: > At location 1.2 is "the Supreme Court of Canada has held that the > objective of the criminal law is to maintain a just, peaceful and safe > society" "...Our criminal law is also a system of values". At 3.5.2 the > Auditor General has broad discretion in the public interest, i.e. he can > not prosecute if that is what he wants. At 11.2.1 the police are > politically independent. At 11.3.1 is pre-charge screening? At 26.1 > anyone can 'lay an information' with a Prosecutor. At 31 is a chapter > on FIREARMS AND OTHER OFFENSIVE WEAPONS. At 31.3.4 is public > denunciation of the use of these weapons (the only specific denunciation > in the entire manual). > > Randy Schmidt Most excellently done, Randy! Thank you very much for taking the time to look this up, read through it, and pick out the most salient bits! It will be interesting to go through it in fuller detail, including examining the various cases it presents as support for its claims. Many, many hours of joyful reading ahead! Thanks again, Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:11:28 -0600 (CST) From: "Nick & Michelle" Subject: Letter to Mississauga News THE MISSISSAUGA NEWS Don't ignore the facts Dear Editor: The Mississauga News Feb 7, 2003 As a dual citizen of both the United States and Canada who has lived in both countries for more than 20 years, and who is a statistician by profession, I feel more qualified than most to compare the standard of living and especially when it comes to the subject of gun control. Both Canada and the U.S. are among the greatest countries to live in, and we should feel privileged to be able to live on this continent. In the U.S., the advantages are a better climate and a somewhat less regulated lifestyle to pursue your own interests (i.e., less government interference). In Canada, a much lower crime rate and better social programs, especially in access to medical care. My own situation has caused me to choose to live in Canada in retirement. Although Canada has a substantially higher crime rate than most European countries, where I also lived for about 10 years, it is microscopic compared to the U. S. The death rate due to firearms in Canada is only about one-tenth of that in the U.S., which means that you have 10 times the chance of being killed by a firearm if you live south of the border! Surely one cannot logically argue that the relatively easy access to firearms in the U.S. is not a contributing factor. After all, this is a historical reality which is proven every year. Relaxing firearm restrictions to make them as accessible as they are in U.S. would result in the deaths of thousands more Canadians each year - after all there are more than 40,000 deaths each year in U.S. related to firearms. How can advocates of the gun lobby ignore these facts? Let us not ignore the constant lesson we get from south of the border. While there are many things we should emulate from our neighbours, their lack of gun control is not one of them. Abe Paul Mississauga ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #744 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@sprint.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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