From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #750 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, February 10 2003 Volume 05 : Number 750 In this issue: it looks like we actually have an opposition party now RE: Good idea RE: A question of time Re: Liberals think Freedom .....is actually FREE CBC - First Nations' firearms licences Re: Anti-gun insider .....exposes gun industry EDMONTON GUN SHOW Letter published Fw: TNG CHILCOTIN INDIANS Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #747 Re: A Letter to the Press Letter published CAUCHON DEFENDS REWARDING INCOMPETENCE ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:02:57 -0600 (CST) From: Hayes Holdings Subject: it looks like we actually have an opposition party now Good to see that the opposition is starting to act like an opposition under Harper. This sort of thing is just one example of what an effective opposition is supposed to do. Add to that the constant pressure over the firearms stupidity, the HRDC thing, etc., etc. and it appears that the Alliance is starting to do its job. Jason Hayes Principal - Hayes Holdings Consulting Calgary, AB, Canada hh@hayz.ws / http://www.hayz.ws > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [mailto:owner-cdn- > firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca] On Behalf Of Bruce Mills > Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 12:29 PM > To: undisclosed-recipients: > Subject: ARTICLE: Waiting game > > > http://www.canoe.ca/TorontoNews/ts.ts-02-10-0030.html > > Monday, February 10, 2003 > > Waiting game > > Cabinet chauffeurs' OT ripped > > By MARIA MCCLINTOCK, OTTAWA BUREAU > > OTTAWA -- Federal cabinet ministers should be prohibited from > allowing their chauffeurs to pile up hundreds of hours in overtime > that's racked up waiting around for their bosses, Opposition MPs > charge. > > Documents obtained by Sun Media under Access to Information > laws show that several cabinet minister's drivers earned at least > $20,000 more a year and banked hundreds of hours of OT over an > 18-month period starting April 1,The drivers are expected to be > available to their minister around the clock. > > "I don't know how they do it," Canadian Alliance House Leader John > Reynolds said. "There's not too many ministers that live in Ottawa > 365 days a year." > > Reynolds said ministers who pay their drivers OT should do what > Treasury Board president Lucienne Robillard did -- classify their > drivers as "exempt" support staff so they only get paid a salary. <> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:20:06 -0600 (CST) From: Hayes Holdings Subject: RE: Good idea > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca [mailto:owner-cdn- > firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca] On Behalf Of Jim Powlesland > Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 12:53 PM > Subject: Re: Good idea <> > While the tough on crime issue is near and dear to the hearts of many > posters here, it will not do much to get C-68 repealed. <> > Do you what to spend your money on billboards saying we ought to get > tougher on crime? > > Or do you want to spend your money on billboards saying we ought to > scrap the gun registy? Another angle, getting the Liberal party repealed (as in the case of the Mulroney party a few years ago) could equate to getting registration and the Firearms Act repealed. One thing to consider is the fact that despite the massive cost overruns and unfriendly press they have been getting, the fedlibs refuse to abandon the registry. Thus, we may need to repeal the fedlibs to get C-68 repealed. Jason Hayes Principal - Hayes Holdings Consulting Calgary, AB, Canada hh@hayz.ws / http://www.hayz.ws ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:20:49 -0600 (CST) From: Hayes Holdings Subject: RE: A question of time While I think the USA Patriot Act deserves to be seriously scrutinized for its intrusion into personal privacy and individual freedoms and liberties, I would caution against using anything that comes from Bill Moyers or his work as a creditable source. He is well known for skimping on research into resources that don't fit with his world view. Take anything he says with a huge grain of salt and then check further into the issue. Jason Hayes Principal - Hayes Holdings Consulting Calgary, AB, Canada hh@hayz.ws / http://www.hayz.ws ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:27:25 -0600 (CST) From: Vulcun1isback@aol.com Subject: Re: Liberals think Freedom .....is actually FREE In a message dated 2/10/2003 9:35:52 AM Central Standard Time, owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca writes: > What patronizing pap, Abe, you pussy! > > If it wasn't for the military might of the USA, we'd not be enjoying the > freedom we have now. Canada sits in the shadow of the USA, spending > nothing > on the military and prospering financially. > > I don't appreciate whiners who constantly criticize the US. Sure, they are > > not perfect. Who is? I like the US and I don't care who knows it. > > Alan Harper > alan__harper@cogeco.ca > SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM I happen to agree with you Al ......100 per cent, Canada has a lot of fine freedom fighters and many who like Oscar Lacombe was not afraid to go into the heat of battle to take on the likes of the nazi's and did so with great courage and bravery in WW2. Now that Nazi policies have again resurfaced around the world,(thanks to the UN and other like-minded Socialist elitists) it is important to remember at the end of the day... just which country has and always will represent "Freedom" in the world. The very country that Liberals love to mock so much, ...is the only one that is keeping total chaos at bay in North America. ..But if and when we have to go to war once more.... will those same Liberals have the guts to pick up the very instrument (a gun) that they have ridiculed for so long, ...and defend their sorry butt with it, against an opposing army. ? ..God help us all.... if we had to depend on them - ( I imagine the first few hundred of these tree-huggers - would be killed either due to self-inflicted accidental discharges, or simply refusing to fire upon the enemy ) ..I imagine most Liberals armed with a gun, would probably be more of a danger to their own units,although they might be useful as scouting parties (if they didn't get lost that is) - that way when we heard the gun shots or the landmines go off ....we'd know how much of a threat really exists in the area . okay, I know how mean that sounds....but the only other use they'd have in an army is as cooks perhaps. ...and who the hell wants to live on salads anyway ? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:13:16 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: CBC - First Nations' firearms licences http://vancouver.cbc.ca/template/servlet/View?filename=bc_licences20030210 First Nations' firearms licences WebPosted Feb 10 2003 08:34 AM PST VANCOUVER - A B.C. First Nation will start issuing its own firearms licences later this week, in a direct challenge to Ottawa's firearms' registry. The Tsilhquot'in Nation says it will issue the new licences instead of the legally-required federal licences. Chief Ervin Charleyboy says he's not worried that the plan goes against federal firearms laws. He says people who live on the six Tsilhquot'in reserves don't trust Ottawa's firearms registry. "Especially people out there in the Cariboo-Chilcotin where they live in rural areas, we've lived by the gun and we feed our families and we don't mis-use firearms out there." Charleyboy says many people on the reserves are worried their guns will be taken away from them, if they register with the federal government. He says the Tsilhquot'in licenses will go on sale to people who live on the reserves, starting on Friday. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:14:16 -0600 (CST) From: Vulcun1isback@aol.com Subject: Re: Anti-gun insider .....exposes gun industry You have all probably heard or read about this by now..but for those who havn't http://www.nraila.org/LegislativeUpdate.asp?FormMode=Detail&ID=530 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:15:09 -0600 (CST) From: "BOB LICKACZ" Subject: EDMONTON GUN SHOW I worked another gun show on Saturday and Sunday. It was put on by the Canadian Historical Arms Society (CHAS). The big difference for me, personally, was that I was not manning the National Firearms Association table. I was working at the LUFA table. The reason I was working for LUFA and not the NFA was as a result of my dissatisfaction with the complete lack of transparency and accountability of the NFA finances, more specifically the total lack of respect for the NFA members' money that Dave Tomlinson and Jim Hinter have. I contacted CHAS and specifically requested that the LUFA table be placed directly across from the NFA table. Unfortunately this request was not fulfilled. Al Leander a CHAS member told me that my request caused much anguish. I'm not quite sure exactly who was suffering the anguish, but I can tell you it certainly wasn't LUFA. I was certainly pleased with the response Bruce Hutton and I received. We signed up a lot of new members, several of whom identified themselves to be former NFA members. We also took in a large amount of donation money. One of the important points that was expressed to me was that LUFA was being seen to be doing something in our collective fight against the Firearms Act. We had photos of an anti Firearms Act billboard that LUFA had erected one mile west of Stony Plain on Highway 16, some 30 kms west of Edmonton. Highway 16 is arguably the second busiest road in Alberta with much of the traffic bound for B.C. It was very refreshing to be able to point to an actual physical object and say "Your donations made this billboard possible". One man dropped a hundred dollar bill into our donations hat when he saw the billboard. Many gun owners from Edmonton said they would make a special trip to see the 40 feet long by 10 feet high LUFA sign. LUFA currently has 3 billboards up and is finalizing the wording on six more. The next series of billboard signs is targeted for southern Ontario. I was wondering if Dave Tomlinson or Jim Hinter were going to show up at this show. Tomlinson was present early Saturday morning but left after dropping off some stuff at the NFA table. Tomlinson did show up on Sunday and did stay for a couple of hours. Jim Hinter never did appear at the show. I was looking forward to engaging them on the issue of accountability, particularly in a public place, particularly at a gun show. As Tomlinson walked by our table, I asked Mr. Tomlinson if he had a copy of the Ziel audit. I guess this must have been somewhat embarrassing to Mr. Tomlinson, as he turned beet red and started calling me names. Quite a few of the gun show attendees were taken aback by Mr. Tomlinson's unprofessional outburst. I know this because several of them came over to ask me what all the commotion was about. I then handed them a copy of the Ziel audit that was opened to page 5. I then circled two paragraphs that mentioned the lack of accountability and breach of trust in reference to Jim Hinter. Those who had not seen the audit were aghast at the statements. I received more than a dozen comments from people who expressed disbelief that Tomlinson would dare show his face at a gun show in light of the audit document. Now those of you who know me, are aware that I am not a lawyer, nor do I purport to be one, nor do I use titles for which I am not qualified. Mr. Tomlinson routinely uses the signature "NFA Legal" or "NFA Legal Committee Chairman". So when Tomlinson returned past our table, I asked him what breach of trust meant. I was surprised that Mr. Tomlinson, for all his legal expertise, could not give me a definition of this term. I thought to myself that perhaps Mr. Tomlinson did not hear me. I repeated the question in a louder tone of voice. This temerity must have startled Mr. Tomlinson because he called me a few more profane names and even questioned my ancestry. I can tell you that Mr. Tomlinson didn't appear to be very amused by these proceedings. Mr. Tomlinson scurried back to the NFA table to the sounds of numerous guffaws. Mr. Tomlinson did not venture past the LUFA table again, and conspicuously avoided making eye contact with me. Everyone who ventured past our table carrying NFA material, received a copy of the Ziel report. At about 3 PM, Mr. Tomlinson packed up his belongings and headed for the exit. Just before he reached the exit, I said in a loud voice, "HEY DAVE SEE YOU AT THE NEXT GUN SHOW!!" Mr. Tomlinson did make eye contact with me when I called out to him. It would be my perception that the look he gave me was hateful. A lesser man may have been intimidated. Unfortunately for Mr. Tomlinson, I am not a timid man. I do know one thing and that is Mr. Tomlinson does know that I WILL be there. Bob Lickacz Criminal, LUFA Member ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:15:49 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Hill Subject: Letter published This published in the Calgary sun today. JUSTICE MINISTER Martin Cauchon and his department continue to mislead Parliament on costs and effectiveness of the gun registry. He tabled two reports in the House but failed to include a third document which forecast an additional $541 million will have to be spent over the next 10 years. The fact Cauchon failed to include this in the House is further proof that the Liberals continue to hide the truth about the registry. No one in the House, other than Cauchon and his henchmen were aware of the report until the press got hold of it the next day. Jim Hill (So much for Liberal accountability.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:16:41 -0600 (CST) From: Med Crotteau Subject: Fw: TNG CHILCOTIN INDIANS Just maybe, i'll try and get Adopted by this Group of Bands?? When i worked the Chilcotins in the '70's, they refused Entry to their Reserves, to the DIA, R.C.M.Police and any Uniform Official. They relented a little within a year, But they were a Band of their Word During that Stand Off. No AK 47's Either, just their Word. Yes Sir, a Charleyboy as Signing Authority !! I might try and see if i am Allowed on the reserve now, and if he'll let me watch? In Memory of old Joe Elkin, & Tommy Lulua who were Damn Fine Men, i wish this endeavor much Success. I expect that they are looking down on this move, and i believe they would Approve. KEEP YOUR POWDER DRY!!! MED **************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:17:58 -0600 (CST) From: "Jim Thacker" Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #747 DEAR ABE > >As a dual citizen of both the United States and Canada who has lived in > >both countries for more than 20 years, and who is a statistician by > >profession, I feel more qualified than most to compare the standard of > >living and especially when it comes to the subject of gun control. IF YOU WERE REALLY A STATISTICIAN YOU WOULD KNOW AN "N" OF 1 DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING > >The death rate due to firearms in Canada is only about > >one-tenth of that in the U.S., which means that you have 10 times the > >chance > >of being killed by a firearm if you live south of the border! AGAIN AS A STATISTICIAN YOU MUST KNOW ABOUT CORRELATION AND CAUSATION, AND WHY IF YOU ARE TRULEY A STATISTICIAN DO YOU NOT CITE EVIDENCE NOT "GUT FEELINGS." I WONT EVEN ARGUE THE 10 TIMES MORE LIKELY ARGUMENT, AS IF THERE ARE ALSO 10 TIMES MORE PEOPLE THE LIKELYHOOD WOULD BE THE SAME. BUT WAIT, WHAT ABOUT MODERATORS. IF YOU LIVE IN A GATED COMMUNITY IN CANADA OR THE US I WOULD BET THE LIKELYHOOD WOULD BE EQUAL. > >Surely one cannot logically argue that the relatively easy access to > >firearms in the U.S. is not a contributing factor. AGAIN SURELY YOU CAN. AS SOME HAVE ALREADY POINTED OUT THERE ARE HIGHER LEVEL OF FIREARMS PER PERSON IN SWEEDEN THAN THE USA..... BUT LESS GUN RELATED CRIME. THERE ARE MORE CRIMES IN NEW YORK THAN IN MINNESOTA OR ALABAMA, BUT THE GUN LAWS IN NEW YORK ARE SOME OF THE STRICTEST IN THE USA. SO IT IS NOT ABOUT GUN OWNERSHIP OR GUN LEGISLATION BUT OTHER FACTORS. IF YOU REALLY ARE A STATISTICIAN THEN I AM SURE MANY OF YOUR COLLEGUES IF THEY READ THIS ARE DISTANCING THEMSELVES FROM YOU AND YOUR COMMENTS. REAL STATISTICIANS WOULD NEVER ARGUE AS YOU HAVE DONE, WITH SO MUCH DISREGARD FOR THE STANDARDS OF THE PROFESSION. James W. Thacker, Ph.D. Professor Odette School of Business Windsor, Ontario N9C 3P4 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:18:44 -0600 (CST) From: Vulcun1isback@aol.com Subject: Re: A Letter to the Press Titled - Your Papers Please I must agree with Mr.Mills, (Letters-Ottawa Citizen,Feb.8th/03) if the Liberals think that the Gun Registry laws are so great...than why are they scared to make any arrests under the act ? ..and more importantly..why are they scared to see this law face a constitutional challenge in court ? The answer is quite obvious, .they know it would never survive a Charter Challenge,and know that the laws are frivilously/loosely worded and structured,but most importantly..... Highly Unconstitutional. Canadian Scholar Ted Morton identified that the Firearms act violates no less than 17 separate Charter Violations , and this is the "True Reason" why the Liberal Government has Recently ordered Police Forces across Canada to "Not Charge anyone" under this act. Now the Government is again working hard and fast at attempting to deprive Canadians of their privacy rights- by disguising "Big Brother Laws" that will require all of your very personal information (and no doubt thumbprints ) to be encrypted on a National ID Card. What will this continual invasion of freedoms mean to Canadians ? ...Well pretty soon it will be unlawful for you to walk down a sidewalk without having to prove to police who you are...and your mobility rights may even be restricted if this type of infringements continue. ..Freedom is about not having to answer to Government (as long as you are peaceful) and having the right to move about freely anywhere in the country , without restriction or impedement. our own Charter guarantees our mobility rights-without having to have to prove who we are !! ..Such laws are reminesent of Nazi policies where you were forced to provide "Your Papers" for inspection to prove they were IN ORDER ...before you could proceed past checkpoints. .Is this what Canada has now (or is on the verge) of becoming ? (and if so, I have to wonder when will CSIS and the RCMP Change their name to The Canadian Gestapo to properly reflect the new roles they will be undertaking . ) - - My Opinion on Canada's Proposed National Security Policies is that of a famous countryman who assisted in founding the US Constitution : - "Those who would trade Liberty for Security-deserve neither" -George Washington. - -Therefore my conclusion is that Canadians who truly care about their freedom and their childrens freedom must not only fight Canada's draconian Firearms act....but their proposed National ID Card system as well. - -For now we have reverted from Registering guns...to Registering People and their very Privacy and Mobility rights. ..and that is simply Barbaric because FREEDOM is Not some type of tradeable commodity that can be Negotiated away like they were some worthless shares in the stock market . -Sincerely, -R.A. MAZUREK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:19:39 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Hill Subject: Letter published This published in the Ottawa Citizen and Sun today and the Halifax Daily News and National post on Saturday (the Post was edited somewhat) Gun registry, ID card, both erode rights Jim Hill The Ottawa Citizen Monday, February 10, 2003 ADVERTISEMENT Re: Coderre makes pitch for national ID card, Feb. 7. In attempting to create a national ID card for Canadians, Citizenship and Immigration Minister Denis Coderre is having a hard time with some fellow Liberal MPs. Apparently the idea of a card with a person's identification, including some biometric data, does not sit well with them. They are concerned that a national database would erode rights and could be subject to abuse. I wonder where the MPs' self-righteous indignation was when the government was attacking the most law-abiding segment of our society, the responsible firearms community. It had no qualms in forcing us to fill out intrusive questionnaires and jump through numerous hoops, all under threat of imprisonment, in order to achieve its aim. While I am not in favour of the national ID card, I do find it strange that the objections are so loud. The information contained in one should only be for identification, unlike the fire-arms licence application, which delve into your personal history. I also get a charge out of the fact that this is not a Canadian initiative, but rather a means to appease our neighbours to the south. It will shorten the line-ups for people heading south on business or vacation. I am more concerned about how it would be used here in Canada, and feel the politicians are right in not supporting it. However, they seem to be selective in whose rights they are concerned about. Jim Hill, Fletchers Lake, N.S. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:57:03 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: CAUCHON DEFENDS REWARDING INCOMPETENCE House of Commons Debates Monday, February 10, 2003 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Unedited copy - not official until printed in Hansard * * * [English] Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, Gary Webster was dumped last week as the CEO of the Canadian Firearms Registry. As a reward for his mismanagement of the $1 billion firearms registry he received a soft landing and has been made a special adviser to Morris Rosenberg, the Deputy Minister of Justice. Incredibly, Morris Rosenberg and 49 of his 52 executives received a performance bonus for wasting $1 billion on the registry. My question to the Minister of Justice is, why are bureaucrats who have proven their incompetence rewarded with plum postings? Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, when we look at the whole group of people who have been working on the question of gun control, there are a lot of people in the group who have been working hard and who have given to our Canadian population their time and their experience. On the other side of the House members do not believe in public safety. On this side of the House we believe in gun control. We believe in public safety and we will proceed with gun control because it is in the best interests of Canadians as a whole. (1440) Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the Liberal member for Leeds--Grenville said that the gun registry is no more complex than the income tax system. Coincidentally, Bill Baker, the new CEO of the firearms registry comes from the tax department where he was responsible for compliance. That is code for squeezing taxpayers till they squeak. Now he will be setting his sights on duck hunters and farmers and forcing them to sign up with the $1 billion firearms registry. We have hired a tax collecter to run the firearms registry. Can duck hunters and farmers now expect to be squeezed till they squeak? Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, members opposite should be open minded with Canadians and tell them the truth. The truth is that they do not believe in public safety. They do not support gun control at all, whether licensing or registration. What hon. members opposite do not like is that obviously the government is heading in the right direction. The Auditor General has tabled her report. We said we accept her recommendations and we will fix the problem. When we received last week two reports, we said that we wanted to proceed with the good health tax and plan, and this is exactly what the government will do. * * * ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #750 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@sprint.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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