From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #766 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, February 13 2003 Volume 05 : Number 766 In this issue: CBC - CHILCOTEN NATIONS TO ISSUE FIREARM LICENSES Re: Sheila Copps To Make Announcement in Hamilton February 13 Re: Wendy obviously rates herself highly A courageous liberal finally speaks up ! NEW CANADIAN SUCCESS STORY # 3 Liberals will be moving Time Allocation on C-10A, Monday February 17. Blue Line Magazine - "Gun control: There is another way with another focus" Pacifist BOUDRIA ANSWERING FOR CAUCHON NOW ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:58:39 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: CBC - CHILCOTEN NATIONS TO ISSUE FIREARM LICENSES CHILCOTEN NATIONS TO ISSUE FIREARM LICENSES CBC Radio Transcripts Wed 12 Feb 2003 Time: 18:30:00 ET Network: CBC-R BARBARA BUDD: If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. That's the attitude of the Chilcoten nation, at least when it comes to dealing with gun possession. This Friday, the central BC natives will present the first council issued firearms licenses. Joe Alphonse is the director of government services for the Chilcoten tribe council. He's in Williams Lake, BC. MARY LOU FINLAY: Mr. Alphonse, what made you decide to start your own gun registry? JOE ALPHONSE: The reason we started our own gun registry, I guess, in... hunting... and fishing is always a big part of the Chilcoten way of life, I guess, as we want to assume control over every aspect of our life. And hunting is a big part of that. And you can't hunt unless you have firearms, so that's I guess the main reason why we've done it. But we've also, with the introduction of the FAC by the... federal government, really... FINLAY: That the... Ottawa's gun registry? ALPHONSE: Ottawa's gun registry put a lot of... stress to... our people and concerns over their ability to carry firearms and... use it in... a traditional way of life for us. And so not agreeing with that process and feeling that was imposed on our people, and... our people were... threatened by that. And we feel that that was not... right. And we could see that for... areas such as Toronto, Vancouver and big cities, but you know, having a firearm in... the Chilcoten country is... necessity. And I think... And that... hasn't been taken into consideration. And so that was the reason for doing that. FINLAY: I'm not sure I understand the difference in principle. You said it's a good idea to have the guns registered, but you don't think it's a good idea to register them with Ottawa? ALPHONSE: No. This is for... Chilcoten people. And... we feel the best people to manage our people is ourselves. And we want... to be in control of that. FINLAY: Okay. ALPHONSE: It's... a form of self-government and it's something that we're striving for. We've done this in other... areas, fishing and hunting. As well, we have our own licenses in that area, and this is an extension of that. FINLAY: How many people... ALPHONSE: How many people... FINLAY: ... the Chilcoten reserve? ALPHONSE: We're looking at... probably a population of about 3,500 people. FINLAY: And how many guns would you guess? ALPHONSE: How many guns in the Chilcoten? FINLAY: Yeah. ALPHONSE: That's a good question. We could probably have about... 3,000 rifles in the Chilcoten, or more. It's tough to say. FINLAY: That's all that registered. ALPHONSE: Lot of people that... are hunters and live off the land will need... .22 caliber rifles for when they're trapping squirrels, hunting squirrels that are trapping. FINLAY: (...) ALPHONSE: And we'll often need them... a larger caliber rifle for hunting deer. And we'll again need an even larger rifle for hunting... moose and stuff. So... every hunter out there may have anywhere from three to six rifles. FINLAY: (...) ALPHONSE: The majority of the ones that are... registered right now are registered only because to avoid any... unnecessary stress and... stuff like that. FINLAY: So some... people have registered with the... ALPHONSE: Some people... FINLAY: ... with the federal plan. ALPHONSE: Yes. FINLAY: (...) ALPHONSE: And my guess is most of them will be abandoning that... process and will be... cutting up those licenses and replacing it with our own. FINLAY: How... Will there be a fee attached to registering in your plan? ALPHONSE: In our plan, our current plan right now is that we... will not be asking for a fee for... from our own members right now. FINLAY: And what's the penalty for people who don't register? ALPHONSE: The penalty for... not registering, I guess, you know would be the individuals that choose not to go this route is up to them. And... if they get charged, whether it by... provincial conservations officers or the RCMP, they're on their own. But if they carry our own... gun licenses, then we'll be standing there supporting and backing them up. FINLAY: I expect your... you can run your plan for something under a billion dollars? ALPHONSE: Can we run our plan for under a billion dollars? I think we run our whole nation under... for under a billion dollars, you know. The majority of our people out there, you know, they're... they live off of the land. You know, we don't... live in big city outlets and stuff. So you know, we're... Can we run this for under a billion dollars? I think we can. FINLAY: Yeah. And... ALPHONSE: You know, we... know our membership, and... FINLAY: You don't need a big, fancy computer program? ALPHONSE: We don't need a big, fancy computer program, although that... helps and makes life a lot easier. And we need... a proper recording system. And... FINLAY: Yes. ALPHONSE: And the Chilcoten national government will be the centre location for... this program. All guns registered with our nation will be... kept at the Chilcoten national government office based in Williams Lake. And we will keep track of... all those guns registered here, and all the licenses that we've ever issued, photographs and... whatnot. FINLAY: Have you had any response from federal or provincial authorities? ALPHONSE: We've... received a call from the... RCMP detachment here in Williams Lake. FINLAY: (...) ALPHONSE: They've indicated... They've never encountered any situation like this. And they, at this point, do not know how they're going to be handling. It. My guess is that they're probably going to just leave it until... an incident does arise where they... have to pull somebody over and our own licenses are... given to them. And it'll probably go to the court system, at which point we will be prepared to stand behind... our licenses and let... the judges of... this country rule whether or not that's a legitimate process or not. And in our opinion, it is, and we're fully confident in it. And at this point, you know, for this first year, we are only considering issuing to Chilcoten people. But in the second year of operation, then we... are considering requesting that all people wishing to hunt and enter into Chilcoten lands obtain our... permitting system as well. FINLAY: Okay, Mr. Alphonse. Thank you so much. ALPHONSE: Okay. FINLAY: Good to talk to you. ALPHONSE: Yup. FINLAY: Bye. ALPHONSE: Bye. BUDD: Joe Alphonse is the director of government services for the Chilcoten tribal council. He's in Williams Lake, BC. Length: 1100 words Guest: JOE ALPHONSE, DIRECTOR OF GOVERNMENT SERVICES FOR THE CHILCOTEN TRIBE COUNCIL ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:54:36 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Powlesland Subject: Re: Sheila Copps To Make Announcement in Hamilton February 13 On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, Bruce Mills wrote: > This is the Historic First Tim Horton's Store - it has great > significance to Hamiltonians, and as Minister of Heritage, it is a > supremely significant place to make her announcement. Don Martin, Calgary Herald, wrote: ... "One's tempted to observe a donut-store kickoff is more than just crass optics to suggest a common-folk connection; that it's actually the only venue small enough to handle her leadership team without appearing half empty. But that would be mean."... http://www.canada.com/search/story.aspx?id=356a346f-662f-48e4-9993-807ecf5e4cc6 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:55:06 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Powlesland Subject: Re: Wendy obviously rates herself highly On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, John Poulin wrote: > she has a messianic agenda to save us men from ourselves Agreed. She often says that gun registration is like seat belts. It's for your own safety. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:57:00 -0600 (CST) From: "Karl Schrader" Subject: A courageous liberal finally speaks up ! [Hansard – Pages 3471-72] Canadian Firearms Program Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of Justice, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 32(2), I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the HLB report entitled "Canadian Firearms Program Review". The Speaker: The Chair has received notice of a question of privilege from the hon. member for Sarnia--Lambton and we will hear that now. * * * Firearms Program Privilege Mr. Roger Gallaway (Sarnia—Lambton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege arising from the justice minister's response to the question posed by the member for Huron--Bruce during yesterday's question period. I will be brief, as others may feel as I do that this is a matter of extreme importance to the House's overview and approval of public moneys, that is, the public purse. The minister stated: --up until the approval of the supplementary estimates, we were moving with what we call cash management.... The program is running at minimum cost but we are able to fulfill our duty. That raises, I submit, an important question of privilege. On Thursday, December 5 of last year, on a motion by the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, the House reduced by an amount of approximately $72 million the supplementary estimates on votes 1a and 5a. The House agreed and voted on that reduction. The government has attempted to manipulate the public perception of this act by spinning the myth that it was the justice minister who withdrew those supplementary estimates. That $72 million had been dedicated to the national firearms program. That motion of reduction carried in the House. That motion was the unequivocally clear expression of this chamber to disallow those moneys to the minister. To state otherwise would be patently false and misleading. The record is clear. There is an unequivocal principle in our House that the estimates are the financial expressions of government policy. In brief, the approval of the estimates is the signal to bring on the adoption and consideration of the appropriation bill. In fact, Beauchesne's sixth edition, paragraph 968(1) states: The concurrence by the House in the Estimates is an Order of the House to bring in a bill, known as the Appropriation Bill, based thereon. By that December motion to reduce the Minister of Justice's estimates for the firearms program, the House laid down two principles. First, it ordered that no moneys for the national firearms program be included in the appropriation bill. Second, it clearly stated its disapproval, this chamber's disapproval, of the national firearms program. It repudiated the program by ordering no more money for it. Furthermore it must again be emphasized that the estimates are the financial expression of the minister's policy contained in the national firearms program. The minister's usage of the phrase yesterday in his response of "up until the approval of the supplementary estimates" reveals his failure to accept that the House reduced to zero his estimates on December 5 just passed. It was 112 years ago that the great commoner, Liberal William Gladstone, delivered a speech concerning public finance, specifically the financing of government by Parliament. That speech is printed in the 1892 book The Speeches and Public Addresses of the Right Hon. W.E. Gladstone, MP. Mr. Gladstone embodied the Liberal concern for Parliament's control of public expenditure, known as parliamentary control of the public purse. I am sure that hon. members opposite will want to hear what Mr. Gladstone had to say. Remembering that the House denied the Minister of Justice $72 million on December 5, I draw attention to Mr. Gladstone's remarks as set out on page 343: I must remind you of that which is apt to pass away from recollection, for the finance of the country is intimately associated with the liberties of the country. It is a powerful leverage by which...liberty has been gradually acquired.... If the House of Commons can by any possibility lose the power of the control of grants of public money, depend upon it, your very liberty will be worth very little in comparison. Mr. Gladstone continued a few paragraphs later: No; if these powers of the House of Commons come to be encroached upon, it will be by tacit and insidious methods, and, therefore, I say that public attention should be called to this. (1515) Yesterday in question period the Minister of Justice stated that the national firearms program was working. He has said that a lot recently. The minister does not seem to understand that the order, as contained in the December 5 motion to reduce the estimates, binds him. In short, he is obligated to obey that order. He maintains that the national firearms program is running at minimum cost and that he is fulfilling his duty. He fails to recognize that his duty is to the House and its orders. For the minister to assert that it is a good policy, clearly is not consistent with the position the House adopted by motion, the most recent position of the House. Again I say that the minister does not accept the very clear fact that the House repudiated his estimates. Again I say that the House repudiated his estimates, which are the financial expression of the policy embedded in the firearms program. The House did not say anything about cash management when he asked more than two months ago for further funds. It said that the relevant estimates for the national firearms program were reduced to zero. As a member of the House I voted on that motion. I, as did the House, indicated that such order of the House reducing the estimates would suspend the minister's ability to spend any more money for the national firearms program. That $72 million, which the House removed, was the total appropriation in support for that program. That the minister stated yesterday that the registry was working, that it was operating and that it was taking registrations, is contrary to the order of the House. On December 5 the House ordered no more money. It is clear that order means nothing to the minister. He is simply not obeying the order. In the nineteenth edition of Erskine May on The law, Privileges, Proceedings and Usage of Parliament, it states: Every question, when agreed to, assumes a form of either an order or of a resolution by the House. By its orders the House directs its committees, its members, its officers, the order of its own proceedings and the acts of all persons whom they concern... It has been more than two months since the House vetoed the appropriation for the firearms program. In parliamentary terms, such a denial to a minister of the crown is momentous. The minister's response is a breach of my privilege and particularly the collective privilege of the House to control the public expenditure. The minister is breaching our privilege because of his disobedience to the order of the House and his refusal to comply with the Commons wish to deny him money. I submit, based on the foregoing, that there is a prima facie case of privilege. (1520) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:57:39 -0600 (CST) From: "BOB LICKACZ" Subject: NEW CANADIAN SUCCESS STORY # 3 Subject: Liberals will be moving Time Allocation on C-10A, Monday February 17. The Liberals will be moving Time Allocation on Bill C-10A, Monday February 17 at approximately 12:30 PM. NOTE: Bill C-10A includes the 24 pages of amendments to the Firearms Act http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/chambus/house/bills/government/C-10/C-10_ 3/C-10_cover-E.html HOUSE OF COMMONS Notice Paper - No. 59 Thursday, February 13, 2003 10:00 a.m. MOTIONS RESPECTING SENATE AMENDMENTS TO BILLS C-10 An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act December 6, 2002 - Resuming consideration of the motion of Mr. Cauchon (Minister of Justice), seconded by Mr. Collenette (Minister of Transport), That, in relation to the amendments made by the Senate to Bill C-10, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, this House concurs with the Senate's division of the Bill into two parts, namely, Bill C-10A, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (firearms) and the Firearms Act, and Bill C-10B, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals), but That this House, while disapproving of any infraction of its privileges or rights by the other House, in this case waives its claim to insist upon such rights and privileges, but the waiver of said rights and privileges is not to be drawn into a precedent; and That a Message be sent to the Senate to acquaint Their Honours therewith; And of the amendment of Mr. Hilstrom (SelkirkInterlake), seconded by Mr. Bailey (SourisMoose Mountain),  That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the word That and substituting the following: , in relation to the amendments made by the Senate to Bill C-10, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, this House does not concur with the Senate's division of the Bill into two parts, namely, Bill C-10A, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (firearms) and the Firearms Act, and Bill C-10B, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals), since it is the view of this House that such alteration to Bill C-10 by the Senate is an infringement of the rights and privileges of the House of Commons; and That this House asks that the Senate consider Bill C- 10 in an undivided form; and That a Message be sent to the Senate to acquaint Their Honours therewith. http://www.parl.gc.ca/PDF/37/2/parlbus/chambus/house/orderpaper/ordpaper059. pdf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:59:54 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Blue Line Magazine - "Gun control: There is another way with another focus" "Gun control: There is another way with another focus" by Mark Reesor, Editor, Blue Line Magazine - Canada's National Law Enforcement Magzine: http://www.blueline.ca/ http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/Article67.pdf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:00:33 -0600 (CST) From: Michael Ackermann Subject: Pacifist pacifist adj : opposed to war [syn: pacifist(a), pacifistic] n : someone opposed to violence as a means of settling disputes. Source: WordNet =AE 1.6, =A9 1997 Princeton University I am opposed to war and violence as a means of settling disputes. But I realize that in the real world there are those who will use violence as a recreation or as a means of controlling others. I train to avoid violent situations wherever possible, but when faced with one that is inevitable, I want to be able to stand a fighting chance of surviving and protecting those less able to defend themselves. Therefore I believe there is a place for a violent response, no matter how distasteful and repugnant I find violence is in itself. That place is in the defense of myself or others against the immediate threat of violence brought to us by others who mean us harm, when non-violent defenses are likely to fail. I believe that to deny this reality is to relegate my survival and that of the people I care about to the 'goodwill' of our attackers or to luck. This is an abdication of the moral responsibility I have to protect my right to life and that of my neighbor. Therefore, no matter how I hope I will never be forced to do so, I am trained and prepared to use violence effectively to stop an attacker from harming me or a helpless third party, in the event the need should arise. I also believe that I still fit the above definition of a pacifist. - -- = M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) President, St. Mary's Shooters Association Box 3, RR 1, 4132 Sonora Rd. Sherbrooke, NS Canada B0J 3C0 902-522-2172 My email: mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca SMSA URL: www.smsa.ca "Hope for the best, but plan for the worst". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:03:18 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: BOUDRIA ANSWERING FOR CAUCHON NOW House of Commons Debates Thursday, February 13, 2003 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Unedited copy - not official until printed in Hansard * * * Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, earlier this week the Minister of Justice spoke of "cash management" in reference to funding the firearms registry. Yet on December 5 this Parliament unanimously withdrew the funding to the Canadian Firearms Centre. Why has the Minister of Justice continued to fund his gun registry in spite of the expressed will of the House to discontinue funding? Hon. Don Boudria (Minister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if my memory serves me right this issue is the subject of a question of privilege which Your Honour will rule on and I would rely far more on the objective answer of Your Honour than the rhetoric I am hearing across the way. Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I would like an answer to my question. They are avoiding it, definitely. The members on that side of the House are in agreement with the Canadian Alliance that this government has wasted a billion dollars on the firearms registry. This House spoke with one voice in restricting any further spending, yet the minister continues to fund this program from unnamed sources. Why does the minister believe that he can override a vote of this Parliament? Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first of all we are not talking about a billion dollars and the member knows it very well. Second, let us start to talk about the benefit of the program. One point nine million owners have been licensed, six million guns have been registered, police use the registry 2,000 times per day and 9,000 licences have been revoked or refused. We are talking about a good program. We are talking about Canadian values. We are talking about public safety. We are heading in the right direction and we will keep proceeding with the program. * * * =B8 (1455)20 Mr. Stephen Harper (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, we do not believe in fairy tales or the Easter bunny. Earlier in question period the Minister of Justice was up bragging about his unfinished, error prone, billion dollar gun registry. How could he justify quietly funneling millions of dollars more into this system when his own colleagues say it is a contempt of this House? Hon. Don Boudria (Minister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this issue is before the Speaker for a ruling. We contend on our side of the House that nothing has been breached. The hon. member now is contesting that something has been breached. That discussion took place yesterday. We will wait for the Speaker's ruling. We will respect that ruling. I only hope that he and his colleagues would as well. * * * ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #766 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@sprint.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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