From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #787 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, February 18 2003 Volume 05 : Number 787 In this issue: Good news over morning coffee! Ottawa again misjudges costs linked with gun law; Editorial: Gun-shy in the House Government backs down on gun bill: Liberals beat retreat on gun vote: Column: End alienation: Let the West rule itself: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:08:37 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Hill Subject: Good news over morning coffee! Well , the Liberals blinked! They backed down on their attempt to ram Bill C-10A through the house by forcing closure within one day and a vote last night. They knew that most of the Western MP's would not be in their seats as they would still be in transit back to Ottawa and thought they would be able to sneak it by. Liberal backbenchers led by Roger Gallaway prevented this by stating they would vote against the bill. Now the bill will have to be debated with the majority of members there and the outcome is not guaranteed to go in the Liberals favour. We need to find out who supported Gallaway and send them all our thanks. I believe they have taken the clothespin off their noses and they do not like the smell. They can also hear the sounds of votes falling and this is not a good thing for any first term politician. The link is not up yet on their website but the headline reads, "GOVERNMENT BACKS DOWN ON GUN BILL" Subtitle states " Fuller debate signals victory for backbench; rival parties say Chretien is losing control" Jim Hill Fletchers Lake, NS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:10:23 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Ottawa again misjudges costs linked with gun law; PUBLICATION: Toronto Star DATE: 2003.02.18 SECTION: NEWS PAGE: A07 SOURCE: Toronto Star BYLINE: Tonda MacCharles DATELINE: OTTAWA - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ottawa again misjudges costs linked with gun law; Critics say the real costs are unknown Liberals back off attempt to end Commons debate - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The federal government was forced to admit yesterday it once again miscalculated costs associated with its gun control legislation, this time in the case of firearms amendments that are running into resistance on the Liberal backbenches. A spokesman for Government House leader Don Boudria said the justice department now says delays in passing a bill that streamlines operations of the gun control program are costing $1 million a month, not the $3.5 million a month the government put forward last week. If true, that figure means the government has incurred about an extra $26 million in costs since legislation to amend the Firearms Act was first tabled, under another omnibus or "catch-all" bill on Dec. 1, 1999- not $91 million in extra costs. Yesterday, Boudria backed off an attempt to close down debate on the bill, now called C-10A, and he was testy when asked why the justice department can't get its figures straight. "I don't know," he snapped at a reporter. "But there is definite cost reduction." "The exact numbers are up to him (Justice Minister Martin Cauchon) to define of course. But that doesn't make any difference. The point is still this is a cost-relieving measure." The amendments are largely technical changes that will, for example, stagger licence renewals and make it easier to register the transfer or importation of firearms, but also reduce the amount of data to be collected, analyzed and stored by Ottawa's computerized gun licence and registration database. The changes have stalled in Parliament ever since they were first introduced a year before the 2000 election. They were later brought back after the Liberals were re-elected, yet still ran into delays along the way. Cauchon refused yesterday to put a price tag on the hold-ups. "You're not going to have any number from me," he told reporters. "People are saying $1 million, some are saying $3 million. Others are saying $3.5 million. As I said to Canadians, when I will come forward with numbers, it's going to be numbers with regards to the whole program." Alliance MP Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville) said the government's credibility on numbers for the program is shot. "I don't think they have any more idea of what this is going to save," he said in an interview. In fact, Breitkreuz said the new amendments will capture more airguns, and by definition will increase costs. He added opposition appears to be growing in the government's own ranks. Cauchon downplayed the level of opposition from within Liberal backbenches on the gun control bill, saying he has been talking to members of the rural caucus and others. "People are supporting the policy," he insisted. But Liberal Whip Marlene Catterall, who is responsible for making sure government member's stay in line and vote the government's way, conceded Liberal MPs were angry at being told debate on the changes would be shut down. "I think people wanted more time to put out their views on that quite frankly." Some suggested the government would have lost the vote to invoke "closure" or "time allocation" on debate over the gun control bill. But Boudria claimed the government had to wait until the speaker ruled late yesterday on one Liberal MP's argument that the gun control bill should not be back before the Commons. In the end, Liberal MP Roger Gallaway (Sarnia-Lambton) was unsuccessful in his argument that the Commons, having consented in December to the withdrawal of an additional $72-million funding request for the gun registry, had effectively shut down the registry. The speaker said the Commons had approved $113.5 million earlier in the year, and so the system was operating with parliamentary approval. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:12:00 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Editorial: Gun-shy in the House PUBLICATION: National Post DATE: 2003.02.18 EDITION: National SECTION: Editorials PAGE: A21 SOURCE: National PostParliamentary bills; Closure; Auditing; Costs; Reports; Canada - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gun-shy in the House - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Canadians have wanted Ottawa to rethink its disastrous gun registry since late last year, when Auditor-General Sheila Fraser first revealed how the program's net cost had ballooned to $1-billion, 500 times the government's original estimate. But the Liberals held firm -- insisting that not even Ms. Fraser's revelations could derail their plan to bury Canadian duck hunters and gun collectors under tedious paperwork. On Monday, gun registry opponents made their presence felt in the House of Commons. Don Boudria, the Liberal House leader, wanted to close debate on Bill C-10A, a legislative package that enacts various cosmetic changes to the registry's structure. It creates, for example, a new sinecure to administer the program -- a "Commissioner of Firearms." If Mr. Boudria had succeeded, the bill would have come to a vote with minimal discussion. But at the last hour, Mr. Boudria realized that backbenchers in his own party might not give him the votes he needed. So he backed down, and the vote was never called. It's a small victory in the grand scheme. But at least it shows that some small fraction of Canada's contempt for Grit waste has filtered through to the floor of Parliament. Martin Cauchon, who oversees the gun registry, still believes it can be saved; indeed, 11 days ago, the Justice Minister claimed he had an "action plan" to reform it. Unfortunately, it turned out his scheme consisted of replacing the registry's chief executive officer. For metaphorically minded Canadians, the announcement immediately summoned images of the Titanic's reshuffled deck chairs. No "action plan" can redeem this catastrophe. Nine years after Ottawa set up its gun registry program, its record reads like a case study in public bungling. In 1994, Justice Department bureaucrats assured the government that the registry would have largely paid for itself by 1999-2000. In 1996, Justice admitted its estimates were off, and claimed the registry would be self-financing by 2005-06. In 1998, the bureaucrats told us the registry wouldn't break even until 2012-13. All the while, it turns out the Justice Ministry was actively hiding the real numbers in hopes the scandal could be passed on to successors. And there is no end in sight: An independent report commissioned by the department and released at the beginning of February says this utterly pointless program could cost another $500-million over the next decade. When most people find themselves in a hole, the first thing they do is stop digging. Could someone please explain to us why Mr. Cauchon hasn't dropped his shovel? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:12:54 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Government backs down on gun bill: PUBLICATION: National Post DATE: 2003.02.18 EDITION: National SECTION: News PAGE: A1 / Front BYLINE: Bill Curry SOURCE: National Post DATELINE: OTTAWAParliamentary bills; Auditing; Costs; Reports; Canada ILLUSTRATION: Black & White Photo: Kevin Frayer, The Canadian Press / PatEyre fires a handgun at the United Shooting Range in Gormley, Ont. The Liberal government yesterday withdrew a plan to shut down debate in order to pass new measures for the firearm registry. !@IMAGES=Black & White Photo: Kevin Frayer, The Canadian Press / Pat Eyre fires a handgun at the United Shooting Range in Gormley, Ont. The Liberal government yesterday withdrew a plan to shut down debate in order to pass new measures for the firearm registry. [40070-10790.jpg]; NOTE: bcurry@nationalpost.com; See related editorial "Gun-shy inthe House" on page A21. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Government backs down on gun bill: Fuller debate signals victory for backbench; rival parties say Chretien is losing control - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- OTTAWA - Faced with opposition from its own backbench, the Liberal government withdrew a plan to shut down debate in order to pass new measures for the firearms registry yesterday. Marlene Catterall, the Government Whip, said that after talking with Liberal MPs over the weekend it was clear many wanted more time to debate the bill and voice their opinions on the registry. Roger Gallaway, a Liberal MP who had urged his colleagues to vote down the bill, said the last-minute decision to put off debate on the issue shows the firearms registry no longer has the support of the Liberal caucus. "The government went into full retreat on this motion," he said. The government had scheduled a vote in the House of Commons yesterday at about noon to end debate on Bill C-10A, which creates a Commissioner of Firearms and makes some administrative changes. The plan was to wrap up debate in one day, with a final vote in the evening to pass the bill into law. But faced with Liberal MPs threatening to vote with the opposition on both counts, the government backed down, promising to allow more debate. Ms. Catterall denied the government was poised to lose any votes. Sheila Fraser, the Auditor-General, reported in December that Parliament has been kept in the dark about the gun registry's costs, which she estimated would approach $1-billion by 2005, even though the government had promised it would only cost $2-million. The opposition was quick to characterize the government's reversal as a sign it is losing control of its own backbench. "It's another example that they are in a rather chaotic state inside the Liberal party," said Jack Layton, the NDP leader. "They seem to be having trouble managing their troops as the Prime Minister's on his long exit dance." John Reynolds, the Alliance House leader, said his Liberal counterpart, Don Boudria, withdrew the government's motion to bring in time allocation on the bill because it likely would have lost the vote. "His own backbenchers are extremely upset," he said. "Mr. Boudria's got a serious problem now. He's got members who are mad in his backbench. When he has to bring in supplementary [spending] estimates on the gun registry he's going to have a very difficult time, because his members, just like ours, are getting from Canadian people that this has been an absolute waste of the taxpayers' money." Some Liberal MPs are demanding to know exactly how much the registry will cost before approving any new firearms measures. In a rare move, Bill C-10A was split off from another bill by the Senate late last year and a motion was sent back to notify the Commons of the change. It is that motion that the government is attempting to endorse through a vote, but some MPs argue the move violates the rights of the House of Commons and sets a negative precedent. While the new measures in C-10A were first introduced in another form in 1999, they had been passed by the Commons prior to the Auditor-General's December report. The government had clearly been planning for a close vote right up to the last minute yesterday, given that just before noon, Denis Coderre, the Minister of Immigration, cancelled an evening speech in Toronto to remain in Ottawa "due to unforeseen business in Parliament." Paul Szabo, an Ontario MP, insisted yesterday that most Liberals continue to support the firearms registry despite controversy over its cost. "Obviously there are still some people within the Liberal caucus who, going right back to just gun control, would not support anything to do with gun control or the registry and continue to do so because that's their position and they've been very consistent," he said. Speaking with reporters yesterday, Martin Cauchon, the Minister of Justice, promised he would release his cost estimates, including a new management plan for the registry, before the end of the month. Mr. Cauchon's numbers will be based on three private-sector reports conducted over the past three months. The final report, which Mr. Cauchon was accused of withholding from Parliament, predicted the licensing and registry program will cost up to $541.4-million over 10 years, in addition to the $1-billion reported by the Auditor-General. The report, which was compiled by HLB Decision Economics Inc., takes information gathered in two previous reports and proposes changes to the program that would save $53-million. If the proposals are adopted, the report estimates the program would cost $488-million. Revenues collected through registration fees are expected to generate $197-million over the 10 years, leading to a net cost of $291-million. However, the report warned there is a risk that the proposed measures will not achieve all of the anticipated savings. Its revenue estimates are also based on collecting stiff registry and licensing fees from firearms owners. Those fees have been waived to entice people to comply. Shortly after the Auditor-General's December report, the House of Commons denied a request from Mr. Cauchon for an additional $72-million to maintain the program. Yesterday, House Speaker Peter Milliken ruled that despite that denial of funds, Mr. Cauchon is still able to make another request to Parliament for money in the next round of supplementary estimates, which will be introduced before March. When asked how the program is functioning without the money requested in December, Mr. Cauchon reiterated his position that the department is proceeding with "cash management." "[If there's] some project at the present time, [it doesn't mean] that you have to pay for your project right away. You may have to pay in just 30, 60, 90 days or sometimes more. It's not called a debt, it's cash management actually," he said. The HLB report estimated that, without changes, the gross cost of the firearms program will be $100-million this year; $115.4-million in 2003-04; $103.4- million in 2005-06; $77.8- million in 2005-06; $75.3- million in 2006-07 and $75.3- million in 2007-08. "Gross program costs would stabilize near $63-million after seven years," it states ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:13:32 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Liberals beat retreat on gun vote: NOTE: Versions of this article also ran in: The Calgary Herald, Edmonton Journal, The Kingston Whig-Standard, Victoria Times-Colonist PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 2003.02.18 EDITION: Final SECTION: News PAGE: A1 / Front BYLINE: Tim Naumetz SOURCE: CanWest News Service - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Liberals beat retreat on gun vote: Crucial showdown delayed by dissent in party ranks - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Chretien government was forced to retreat from a crucial vote on the federal firearms registry yesterday when it became clear too many Liberals refused to support a motion limiting debate on a bill that would streamline the program. Despite Government House leader Don Boudria's claim he withdrew the motion to await a related procedural ruling from the Commons Speaker, government whip Marlene Catterall said Liberal backbenchers wanted more time to debate the legislation creating a new firearms commissioner. "It was quite clear after talking to members over the weekend that members felt we should be having more time to debate this, and we shouldn't be calling time allocation, so the House leader chose not to move it," Ms. Catterall told reporters. Mr. Boudria had served notice last Friday he intended to introduce a motion limiting debate on Bill C10(a), part of a bill concerning the program that had already been passed by the Commons as part of a wider piece of legislation, but which the Senate returned to the Commons as a separate bill. The government's plan to limit debate and hold a final vote yesterday on C10(a) fell apart, however, when rebel Liberals made it clear they would not fall into line and planned to either abstain or vote against the motion limiting debate. The legislation would create a new firearms commissioner, transfer the role of firearms registrar from the RCMP to the Justice Department, stagger licence and registration renewals to ease demand on the system and put in place other measures to streamline the program. Shortly after Mr. Boudria abandoned his plan to limit debate, Speaker Peter Milliken rejected a claim from Liberal MP Roger Gallaway that the government decision to continue with the registry contravened a Commons decision last fall to withdraw a Justice Department request for $72 million to keep the program running until the end of March. Mr. Milliken ruled the all-party agreement to withdraw the request for supplementary spending did not mean the Commons had agreed to suspend the program entirely. Justice Minister Martin Cauchon later told reporters he intends to seek additional funding from Parliament before the end of February to pay the bills the program has been accumulating since mid-January, when funds approved by Parliament last year ran out. "We will come forward with our numbers," said Mr. Cauchon, adding the requests for funding will be included in supplementary estimates to be tabled in the Commons following the federal budget as well as in main estimates of funding requirements for the next fiscal year. Even though the government had to retreat from the motion to limit debate, Mr. Cauchon predicted he can persuade holdout Liberals to support the program once they see an action plan he intends to table within days. The action plan will be based on a report submitted to the government two weeks ago by Ottawa consultant Ray Hession, a former bureaucrat who predicted the annual net cost of the firearms program can be reduced to $30 million over the next 10 years. A report prepared by HLB Decision Economics Inc., a management consulting company Mr. Hession chairs, predicted the firearms licensing and registry program will cost between $488 million and $541 million in total over the next 10 years. That's in addition to about a billion dollars already allocated to the registry. The report said revenues from licensing and registration will bring the cost down to between $291 million and $344 million over the 10-year period, with the lower figure dependent on streamlining measures Mr. Hession recommended, some of which are included in Bill C10(a). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:14:28 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Column: End alienation: Let the West rule itself: PUBLICATION: Calgary Herald DATE: 2003.02.18 EDITION: Final SECTION: News PAGE: A15 BYLINE: Wayne Eyre SOURCE: For The Calgary Herald ILLUSTRATION: Graphic: (See hard copy for illustration).!@IMAGES=Graphic: / (See hard copy for illustration). [44087-11794.jpg]; - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End alienation: Let the West rule itself: Giving the Prairies a government similar to Scotland's would end growing talk of separation - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Recent polls found 55 per cent of Albertans are willing to consider the idea of separation. That's up from 26 per cent in 2001. So, is the western separation locomotive building steam? Possibly. But, "willing to consider" separation is pretty guarded, and a long way away from "want to separate." Perhaps the West's ire over Ottawa's Kyoto ratification, its $1-billion gun registration program and its annual waste of many other billions of taxpayer dollars has fired separation fever anew. But, again, I wonder. Early in 2001, a COMPAS poll tellingly found that although 50 per cent of Albertans yearn for more limits to Ottawa's control over the provinces, only seven per cent said they'd be willing to separate from Canada. I recently read that a British Columbia barber conducted a straw poll on western separation. He found one day that 16 of his customers were in favour of separation, but that 11 of those 16 said they would not want to leave the country. The barber's finding is highly anecdotal, of course. But, it nevertheless reminded me of COMPAS's seven per cent figure. So, I'm skeptical when I hear talk about burgeoning separatism in the West. After all, full secession would mean a complete bye-bye to Canada as we know it. Which is why I think a middle position on this matter is just the ticket for us alienated Westerners -- i.e., the establishment of a sub-federal Parliament (probably in Calgary or Edmonton) through which the western provinces, functioning as a political unit, would obtain a high degree of self-government while still remaining part of Canada. Such a plan describes home rule, modelled more or less after the new Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh. Political parties would compete for power, with the winning party enacting legislation and facing an official Opposition. I hasten to note that home rule would not mean another level of government. Under the scheme, the respective provincial governments would cease to exist as provincial governments per se. Instead, each would house and administer a number of the new government's departments. But why, you ask, would the existing provincial governments want to abolish themselves? Well, they probably wouldn't. But rank and file westerners might. After all, keeping the status quo will probably mean more decades of political marginalization of the West and more decades of meddling and manipulation by Ottawa. If we're happy with this state of affairs, fine. If not, why stay with it? Why hold to this national marriage like an abused spouse? After all, it's pretty much a steel-cold reality that the Canadian Alliance will not win the next federal election. The Alliance under Stephen Harper is increasingly disciplined, mature and effective in Opposition. The Liberals under Jean Chretien are feckless, floundering and profligate. But, polling reveals that central Canadians can hardly wait to again endorse the Grits as the worthiest managers of the country. Moreover, the CA is the second choice of only nine per cent of Canadians and receives only 27 per cent of the female vote and 14 per cent of the ethnic vote (vs. 72 per cent for the Liberals). Meanwhile, pundits have virtually coronated Paul Martin not only as the next Liberal leader but also as our next PM, despite his notorious dodginess on issues of account. Short of a massive shift in these realities, the country is facing an indefinite protraction of Liberal hegemony. Can we stomach that? Western Canada and Central Canada constitute the true solitudes in this centro-centric country. Polling shows westerners regard the Ottawa Liberals as dictatorial, disrespectful of the West, and uninterested in Parliamentary reform. With home rule, we could seek western solutions to western problems and priorities, implement Parliamentary reform from the outset, and experience, finally, the end of our enthrallment to Ottawa, which has exploited us from the beginning. Western alienation would vanish as Easterners would continue on, happy in Ottawa-land. Some think Alberta should separate alone. But, surely a western bloc of provinces would make better long-term sense than Alberta's hiving off unto itself. Founding a West-based Parliament, negotiating what jurisdictions and departments would transfer to the new Parliament, and re-establishing a new infrastructure for the West would of course be a massive undertaking. But, it would also be a labour of love. Let's stop our perpetual grumbling about being treated like a colonial outpost, fellow westerners. Let's go for home rule instead. Wayne Eyre is a retired Saskatoon journalist who maintains the home rule Web site www.westernhomerule.ca ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V5 #787 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@sprint.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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