From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #197 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, June 24 2003 Volume 06 : Number 197 In this issue: Re: bible RE: POLICE OUT OF CONTROL Re: Cats and bunnies Re: POLICE OUT OF CONTROL RE: Dethroning FW: National Firearms Association Open Letter Calling on Canadian Police Association to Survey members ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:29:29 -0600 (CST) From: B Farion Subject: Re: bible > CALGARY -- After 30 years of preaching Western conservatism to Canadians, The > Report magazine has gone the way of the Prairie grain elevator and bitten the > dust. > > The bible of the Prairie right, previously known under the mastheads Alberta > Report and Western Report, has published its final issue, Link Byfield, editor > and publisher, said yesterday. > > The controversial magazine failed to increase circulation beyond 40,000, attract > readers outside Alberta and absorb the high costs of publishing. I would not read the damn thing because of all the religious nut cases writing for it! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:46:07 -0600 (CST) From: "Jason Hayes" Subject: RE: POLICE OUT OF CONTROL Is this for real? Can anyone on this list confirm this account or provide more information on this fellow's situation? Jason Hayes - Principal Hayes Holdings Consulting hh@hayz.ws / www.hayz.ws Direct: 403.260.5202 Fax: 403.263.7392 Suite #1936 - 246 Stewart Green S.W. Calgary, AB, Canada T3H 3C8 from: http://www.geocities.com/liberalgunfarce/ POLICE OUT OF CONTROL The following atrocity took place in the small village of Baxter, approximately 8 miles south west of Barrie. If you or a family member has ever fired a rifle for target practice this could have been you or someone you know. This is a short completely factual account of the events that took place as released by the victim's lawyer Mr. Ed Burlew LLB. READ IT CAREFULLY. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:46:51 -0600 (CST) From: B Farion Subject: Re: Cats and bunnies > SENATOR GREIG: Yeah, but why not make it a finish as well. Let's do it > thoroughly. Let's get all automatic and semi-automatic weapons out of > our communities. Hi; And then all them feral pussycats and bunnies can come forth and multiply! Because you will have nothing to shoot them with! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:31:03 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: POLICE OUT OF CONTROL Jason Hayes wrote: > > Is this for real? > > Can anyone on this list confirm this account or provide more information > on this fellow's situation? This has been posted to the CFD, and discussed in great detail on the Canadian Gun Nutz bulletin board. The concensus is that there is no doubt that *something* nasty happened, and people have stepped forward to vouch for the character of the person involved. So far there has only been one newspaper report on the incident, in the Innisfil "Scope", which was also posted to the CFD. Another report indicates that the police have proffered an apology to the people involved. The victim has every intention of suing for police harassment and whatever else he can make stick. Some links to the discussions: http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/viewtopic.php?t=11557 http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/viewtopic.php?t=12445 http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/viewtopic.php?t=12458 Here is where the original article surfaced: http://www.predatormastersforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=17&t=000167&p= Yours in Liberty, Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:04:16 -0600 (CST) From: "Jason Hayes" Subject: RE: Dethroning Michael Ackermann wrote: > Once the Cretin is done paying Radwanski back for his honest service of > the People (as opposed to the Politburo), how long till he turns his > baleful gaze upon the Ethics Commissioner and the Auditor General? > I hope those two are watching their backs! They must be feeling > distinctly uncomfortable, right about now. Worse, he apparently has the Auditor General gearing up to go after Radwanski's accounts. So he is now using the effective people against each other. It is too bad that Radwanski ended up resigning, as he seemed to be one of the few bureaucrats who did work that was of real value to the system (insofar as the current system can be said to actually have 'value'). However, if he was acting inappropriately and was letting his spending get out of control, he needed to be called on it. (As has been noted previously) It is strange how motivated the various committees and fedgov personnel were to get him though. Jason Hayes - Principal Hayes Holdings Consulting hh@hayz.ws / www.hayz.ws Direct: 403.260.5202 Fax: 403.263.7392 Suite #1936 - 246 Stewart Green S.W. Calgary, AB, Canada T3H 3C8 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:34:18 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: FW: National Firearms Association Open Letter Calling on Canadian Police Association to Survey members - -----Original Message----- From: Jim Hinter [mailto:jhinter@nfa.ca] Sent: June 24, 2003 3:11 PM To: nfainfo@nfa.ca Subject: National Firearms Association Open Letter Calling on Canadian Police Association to Survey members Media Release: For Immediate Release 24 June 2003 "The Canadian Police Association appears to be out of synch with frontline Police Officers regarding the Firearms Registry," states Jim Hinter, President of Canada's National Firearms Association. "When we hear from frontline police officers, they tell us that the federal Firearms Registry is a farce," continued Hinter. "We are only a few days away from the federal government's latest failure date - ironically, Canada Day - when hundreds of thousands of Canadians will become 'Canada Day Criminals' because of the incompetence of the federal Liberal government," stated Hinter. "Yet when we listen to David Griffin, the Canadian Police Association's spokesperson, in the House of Commons committee hearings, in the Senate committee hearings, or in the media, his words seem to have been drafted by the Minister of Justice's office. The Canadian Police Association sounds more like a shill for the government than the voice of Canadian Police Officers," stated Hinter. "The National Firearms Association, in an open letter to the Canadian Police Association, is calling on the Canadian Police Association to do a comprehensive independent survey of its members," stated Hinter. "This type of survey was done in Saskatchewan, in 1995, and 76% of the police officers in that province stated that they do not support Bill C-68." "The survey will give the Canadian Police Association an honourable way to drop their support for this failed registry," continued Hinter. "Then, working together, stakeholders and government can start the process of developing a firearm control system that will make a real difference by increasing public safety." "Then we will be able to work together, making our communities are safer from criminal violence," concluded Hinter. - -30- Copy of letter to Canadian Police Association 24 June 2003 National Firearms Association Box 52183 Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2T5 Phone: (780) 439-1394 www.nfa.ca Open Letter to the Canadian Police Association: Setting the record straight on firearms. Our Members keep telling us when they talk face to face to frontline law enforcement officers they are told, by those officers, that the federal government's gun control program is a farce. When I talk with police officers, they tell me that this legislation does not help them to do their job and that the money spent on this legislation could have been spent in far better ways - including the hiring of more officers and the purchase of new equipment. At the Blueline Magazine Trade Show this past April, my Vice President, Wally Butts and I spoke to over 700 frontline police officers - not one single officer had anything good to say about the entire program. Yet to listen to David Griffin, the Canadian Police Association's spokesperson, in the House of Commons committee hearings, in the Senate committee hearings, or in the media, his words seem to have been drafted in the Minister of Justice's office. The voice of the Canadian Police Association sounds more like a shill for the government than the voice of Canadian Police Officers. Not one of the promises made by this government to the Canadian Police Association has been kept. Not one. Yet the Canadian Police Association continues, apparently, to blindly support this boondoggle. Worse yet, the Canadian Police Association has passed resolutions on these matters -- and still has not been addressed, as promised by the federal government. 1. In 1999, the CPA resolved, "that the Auditor General of Canada conduct a thorough review of the firearms registration system." Contrary to the CPA's demand, the Auditor General has not conducted the review as demanded by the CPA! 2. In 1999, the CPA resolved to have "the accuracy of the information that is collected in the firearms registration database" verified. The Registrar of Firearms has indicated that there is a 90% error rate in the applications to register firearms. RCMP and Surete du Quebec sources verify that there is a 50% error rate in the Firearms Interest Police (FIP) database. RCMP sources also verify that there is a 40% error rate in the Firearms Reference Table (FRT) database. Treasury Board documents verify that there is 50% error rate in firearms licence applications. According to Department of Justice research documents, the 67-year-old handgun registry has an error rate of more than 50%. Rather than confirming the accuracy of the information in the gun registry, the RCMP's Registrar of Firearms has simply verified its inaccuracy. 3. In 1999, the CPA resolved to have "confirmation that the registration system has the capacity to meet the legislative timeframes established for firearms registration." The Department of Justice failed to meet the deadline to licence the three million gun owners it estimated resided in Canada. This failure left more than one million responsible firearm owners and about three million firearms out of the system forever. Furthermore, the Department has not provided any credible evidence that they will have any more success meeting the registration deadline. Today, we are mere days away from tens of thousands of Canadians being criminalized as a direct result of this government's 'head in the sand' attitude. There are countless Canadians who have applied for, but are not expected to receive them before Canada Day. Contrary to the CPA's demands, the Department of Justice tried to meet the registration deadline of January 1, 2003 by compromising the accuracy of the information in the registry! The Department of Justice scrapped the very idea of "unique registration" and is now issuing meaningless, untraceable certificates. 4. In 1999, the CPA resolved to have government assurance that "the cost recovery plan for the registration can be achieved." In 1995, Justice Minister Allan Rock tabled the Financial Framework for the gun registry and promised Parliament and the public that the registry would run a deficit of only $2.2 million over the first five years. On July 19, 1999, The Toronto Star published a letter from Justice Minister Anne McLellan that stated: "user fees will cover the entire cost of the [gun registry] program." Contrary to the CPA's demand, taxpayers are on the hook for this soon-to-be billion-dollar expenditure with recent estimates of expenditures indicating a further one billion over the next ten years. How much in the way of police expansion and new police equipment will be scrapped in favor of this failed gun control system? 5. In 1999, the CPA resolved that "meaningful consultations with the User Group to ensure that the concerns of stakeholders are addressed in the review process." The recommendations of the Minister's User Group on Firearms have, for the most part, been ignored since the day the User Group was formed. It meets in secret, its recommendations are secrets, and no one knows what, if any, effect it has had. When Martin Cauchon was Minister of Justice, he did not met with the User Group until he was embarrassed into doing so by publicity generated by that failure. Solicitor General Easter decided not to make that same mistake, he effectively disbanded the User Group and formed what I firmly believe is a squad of cheerleaders to "advise" him on the firearm issue. There is not one single representative of any shooting organization on the committee, nor anyone with expertise in firearms control law. 6. In 1999, the CPA resolved that they need "confirmation that the implementation and operation of the system is not taking officers off the street." As of the summer of 2000, there were about 1800 employees working on the gun registry, not including the hundreds of designated Firearms Officers in every province. Although, the Minister of Justice has refused to release any information to the Library of Parliament in respect of these numbers, it is well known that many of the designated Firearms Officers are police officers that have been taken off of regular police duties. However, contrary to the CPA's demands, hundreds of person- years and hundreds of millions of dollars have been diverted from real law enforcement priorities! 7. In 1999, the CPA resolved to have "The Auditor General of Canada release a public report on their findings to the people of Canada." When the Auditor General tried to do an audit of the Firearm Registry, she had to suspend that audit - she couldn't find out the information she needed. The records were in such a mess that no audit could be done. Now, enough about broken promises. What the National Firearms Association and the Canadian Police Association should both be doing is working toward safer streets, safer communities and a practical firearm control system that severely punishes the criminal use of weapons. A good first step on this will be for the Canadian Police Association to conduct an independent survey of the members of the Canadian Police Association. To my knowledge, this has never been done. If it has been done, it certainly has not been made public. Such a survey would be a good start to making sure that the Canadian Police Association is representing the views of front line law enforcement officers. The Saskatchewan Association of Police Officers set the course for such a survey. In 1995, when Grant Obst was President of that association, they did a survey of each member of the association. 76 percent of the Members said that they do not support Bill C-68. The National Firearms Association believes the results of that survey will allow the Canadian Police Association to responsibly drop its support of this failed firearm registry. Then, working together, with stakeholders and government, we can start the process of developing a firearm control system that will make a real difference in increasing public safety. I look forward to working with you on this. Sincerely James M. Hinter National President Encl. This is an example of some of the comments our Members hear from police officers about the Firearms Registry. This is why the Canadian Police Association must hold a one member, one vote survey and release the results publicly on this failed registration program: RETIRED RCMP OFFICER JACQUES DRISDELLE: I am a retired RCMP officer with 29 years of service . serving in Ontario, NWT, Yukon and BC with 21 postings. I haven't been retired long enough not to keep in touch with several friends in the force. I always like to ask them what they think of the new gun laws. They tell me what I also know, that the gun registry does very little or nothing in reducing violent crime. The smart officers do not rely on the gun registry database when responding to a complaint, whether domestic or other. If they rely on the information they receive, they know they will place themselves in harms way, because the information available is not reliable and never will be. The great majority of street policeman knows that the firearm registry is a complete waste of money and poorly thought out. A person illegally and criminally using a firearm is the problem, not the firearm. Bill C-68 is attempting to deal with firearms related crime by addressing firearms and not the real problem, "people" or better yet, "criminals." Bill C-68 is but one step towards complete confiscation of all firearms and contrary to the "do-gooders", nothing about reducing crime. You or I and millions of others who own firearms are not "criminals" and would and will never use them for a criminal purpose. Unfortunately this law has everything to do with anti- firearms and the advocates behind the law than reality. It's sad when anti-gun advocates can rule other innocent people's lives. Source: Quote from an e-mail posted on the Canadian Firearms Digest - January 29, 2003. The Promises: Alan Rock: 'Should the decision be to proceed with a system of registration, it will only be on the basis that such a system can be established through a reasonable outlay of capital costs.' - Nov. 14. 1994 Alan Rock: 'We have provided our estimate of the cost of implementing universal registration over the next five years. We say that it will cost $85 million. .... We encourage the members opposite to examine our estimates. We are confident we will demonstrate the figures are realistic and accurate." - Feb. 16, 1995 The Reality: "I got crucified on gun registration," Mr. Hec Clouthier, former Liberal MP. Mr. Clouthier was defeated in the last election on the firearm legislation. "A billion dollars spent on health care would have saved countless lives. Instead we spent $1 billion on Allan Rock's personal vendetta against firearms and got less than nothing. Thanks, Allan." Doug MacKay, Canadian Taxpayer. 04 December 2002. "We said from the beginning this program was regrettably dead on arrival and wouldn't work," Manitoba Premier Gary Doer. 04 December 2002. "There were some mistakes, sure. We expected that the provinces were going to help us, and in some places they did not; they made it very difficult for us," Prime Minister Jean Chretien. 04 December 2002. "Expenditures of that size mean that money poured into the gun registry cannot be spent on resources for, say, the RCMP or other federal security agencies. Municipal police services, too, must spend money on registering guns, rather than fighting crime." Leader Post, Regina Saskatchewan. Editorial 05 December 2002. "It would appear that the federal gun control scheme's days are numbered. The program is fifty times more expensive than the government first suggested. Furthermore, the value of the information in the expensive gun registry is of dubious value, according to the RCMP itself." Moncton Times and Transcript. Editorial 05 December 2002. "Straight shooters they're not. But then, they never aimed to be. For seven years, bureaucrats in Canada's justice ministry under Allan Rock, Anne McLellan and now Martin Cauchon have lowballed, denied, hidden and shrugged off the ever-rising cost of setting up a national firearms registry." Toronto Star Editorial 05 December 2002. "But what we needed was a low-cost, effective program, not a billion-dollar bureaucratic boondoggle that threatens to make the cost overruns at the Caisse de Depot headquarters in Montreal look like a bargain. And there's not even much evidence the program is effective. The Justice Department boasts that it has refused licenses to 30,000 ''dangerous individuals,'' which sounds great until you read the RCMP's report on the database used to make such judgments." Montreal Gazette 05 December 2003. Now, let us listen to what Police Officers and Chiefs are saying: "If people want guns, they're always going to be able to get the guns and, unfortunately, those people are the ones that get the guns for the wrong reasons. Not a lot we can do about it, do the best we can, but I think it all boils down to stiffer penalties, get the people off the street, the guns go with them," said Dale Burn, Calgary Police Service." Source: Quote from CFCNplus.ca - "Gun debate heats up in Calgary" - Tuesday, February 18, 2003 Ontario's police chiefs have branded Ottawa's controversial gun registry program an "unenforceable" mess and are warning that they will not charge people under the law until problems are resolved. "It puts us in a position where the law is unenforceable, so we're advising our officers to use discretion and not issue offence notices until this mess is sorted out," said Owen Sound police Chief Tom Kaye yesterday. Kaye is president of the 66- member Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police. "It wouldn't be right to charge someone when we wouldn't have a reasonable chance of getting a conviction," Kaye said. At a meeting in Halton Hills this week, the executive of the chiefs' association voted to send a letter suggesting the federal government put the registry on hold until the problems are resolved. "When the registry was first proposed, the government came to us looking for support; if we are going to maintain that level of support, we want some answers about what's going on," Kaye said. Source: Quote from The Toronto Star - "Chiefs balk on gun registry; Fix it, then we'll enforce it, say Ontario police," Page A07, January 25, 2003 Tom Stamatakis, president of the Vancouver Police Union, told me: "I can't say if the registry has been helpful or not. It has been such a long, drawn-out process of getting the firearms registered. And there have been problems with compliance." Stamatakis says police would get "more bang for our money by investing in staffing, equipment, ways of dealing with horrendous drug issues and marijuana grow ops and availability of court time. I see lots of other areas that could use the resources being committed to this firearms registry." Source: Quote from The St. Catherines Standard - Column by Barbara Yaffe, "Liberals defy calls to end gun registry: Eight provinces and three territories want program to be halted," Page A7, January 14, 2003 Grant Obst: "The Saskatchewan Federation of Police Officers does not feel Bill C-68 focuses on the real problem. The real problem is criminals, not further restrictions on law- abiding citizens. Saskatchewan's' municipal police officers see very little need for further gun restrictions. We are of the opinion that C-68 does little to prevent crime, or assist in the apprehension of criminals. When a Saskatchewan police officer thinks of a gun, he/she usually thinks of hunting - not homicide. Saskatchewan police officers, like other Saskatchewan residents do not have faith in Bill C-68. We know it is not enforceable, and furthermore will have a great deal of trouble adhering to a law those we serve do not approve of. Saskatchewan police officers are not interested in the creation of more paper trails which do little to protect our loved ones. We are not interested in arresting, or incarcerating, otherwise law abiding people for failing to comply with unnecessary paper trails. We want governments at all levels to concentrate on lawmaking which reduces risk on our streets. Laws that identify criminals for what they are and keeps them out of our communities. Laws that identify repeat and habitual criminals and treat them accordingly. Laws that have teeth in them. Laws that police officers in this province can enforce effectively, with the true belief that they are having an impact on the criminal element we continually battle. Bill C-68 has impact and focus. Its impact and focus is on the law abiding firearm owner. This is not where Saskatchewan police officers feel the impact and focus need to be. Impact and focus must be on the criminal. We trust you will deliver this message to Mr. Rock on our behalf." These quotes taken from a letter by Grant Obst, President of the Saskatchewan Federation of Police Officers to the Hon. Robert Mitchell, QC - Minister of Justice for Saskatchewan dated April 28th, 1995. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #197 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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