From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #517 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Friday, September 26 2003 Volume 06 : Number 517 In this issue: Pellet-gun charged awaited Man pleads guilty to Charest threat Attempted murder charges dropped after guilty plea on weapons charges High court tosses out protest appeal: Idiotic comments Gang of youths uses gun to rob couple Bury gun registry Re: here here Re: OHAF position C-68's licensing requirements eaSTER: GUN REGISTRY IS "ReaLLY WORKING" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:19:00 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Pellet-gun charged awaited PUBLICATION: Vancouver Sun DATE: 2003.09.26 EDITION: Final SECTION: News PAGE: B4 COLUMN: In Brief SOURCE: CanWest News Services DATELINE: COQUITLAM - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= Pellet-gun charged awaited - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= COQUITLAM -- Three teenage boys are facing charges for allegedly shooting three other kids with a pellet rifle earlier this week. The shooting spree occurred Tuesday afternoon when a 12-year-old boy was shot in the left arm while riding his bike in a Maillardville neighbourhood about 4:30 p.m. Although the boy did not see the shooter, he saw the pellet coming towards him, said Coquitlam RCMP Corporal Catherine Galliford. The boy reported the assault to police and officers investigating the shooting found two other victims in the area, both young girls. One girl took a pellet in the back while the other was shot in the hip. Police tracked down the three suspects and seized their pellet rifle, Galliford said. Pending charges include assault with a weapon, obstructing a police officer and pointing a firearm. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:20:06 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Man pleads guilty to Charest threat PUBLICATION: Montreal Gazette DATE: 2003.09.26 EDITION: Final SECTION: News PAGE: A10 COLUMN: In Brief SOURCE: The Gazette; CP; CanWest news service DATELINE: PERCE - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= Man pleads guilty to Charest threat - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= A man who sent an e-mail threatening the life of Quebec Premier Jean Charest pleaded guilty yesterday to uttering threats and drug possession. Yves Gauthier, 28, admitted to sending the e-mail to Charest's Montreal office. He was released on a promise to return to court in October. Gauthier told Charest in the e-mail that "the party's over," adding the premier would have a "rendezvous with death." The steelworker from St-Ulric-de-Matane was arrested Monday in a motel in Chandler, in the Gaspe region. Provincial police found drugs and a firearm in the motel room. Gauthier will return to court Oct. 23 for sentencing. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:21:31 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Attempted murder charges dropped after guilty plea on weapons charges DATE: 2003.09.25 CATEGORY: Atlantic regional news PUBLICATION: bnw - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= SAINT JOHN, N-B -- Charges of attempted murder have been dropped against a Saint John man in exchange for a guilty plea to weapons - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= SAINT JOHN, N-B -- Charges of attempted murder have been dropped against a Saint John man in exchange for a guilty plea to weapons charges. Jeffrey Stone was charged with attempted murder after a handgun was fired on a Saint John street last month. Twenty-seven-year-old Stone was arrested following the incident which began as a fist fight between two men. No one was hurt. Stone will be sentenced October 22nd. (CHSJ) sca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:22:50 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: High court tosses out protest appeal: PUBLICATION: Vancouver Sun DATE: 2003.09.26 EDITION: Final SECTION: News PAGE: A5 SOURCE: CanWest News Service DATELINE: OTTAWA - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= High court tosses out protest appeal: B.C. man challenged province's legislation protecting abortion clinics from close-quarter protests - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= OTTAWA -- The Supreme Court Thursday dismissed an appeal by a British Columbia man challenging that province's legislation protecting abortion clinics from close-quarter protests. The application for leave to appeal had been filed by James Roger Demers, of Nelson, an anti-abortion protester charged in 1996 after he carried a sign outside the Everywoman's Health Clinic, a Vancouver abortion-service provider. A B.C. provincial court convicted Demers on three counts of violating the province's Access to Abortion Services Act. The legislation prohibits protests within 60 metres of an abortion clinic or the home of an abortion provider. Demers appealed the provincial court decision to the B.C. Supreme Court on the basis that the so-called bubble-zone legislation contravened the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. As part of his defence, Demers argued that, under section seven of the charter, everyone, including a fetus, has the right to life. In 1999, the B.C. Supreme Court upheld Demers' conviction and earlier this year, the province's Court of Appeal followed with a similar ruling. Demers submitted an application to the Supreme Court in May. He could not be reached for comment Thursday. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:25:08 -0600 (CST) From: "ross" Subject: Idiotic comments Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough-Aldershot, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I will make my remarks short because I know other people want to speak and private members' business is sort of a sacred time and people want to get on. I want just to say that despite the cost overruns of the firearms registry, and I do agree that something went badly wrong, I can tell the member opposite and the person moving this motion that this is one MP that still very much supports the program. (Looking for a position in martins new cabinet no doubt..a true troughster) Very quickly, Mr. Speaker, the member should put in context what the registry does. What the registry does is it tracks long guns which are capable of killing not only animals at a distance but capable of killing people at a distance. (Long guns do not kill people at great distance or animansl. people do the killing") Since September 11 the security situation has so drastically changed (Here we go again, the cry of the oppressor, the world has changed, we need more security etc etc...the world has not changed at all, we just woke up to the fact that the bad guys really hate us infidels) that we need to control and destroy long guns that exist in society that are not being used by proper gun owners, by registered gun owners. Because the one thing that we do not want to see in international affairs particularly in countries like Iraq, we do not want to see terrorists acquire guns that can kill people at distances. WOW WHAT A LEAP from C-68 made in canada waste of law to Iraq. remember folks those al quaeda types do not use long guns, they want to get them all from Canadians and Americans...NO SIR they do not have any long raNGE WEASPONS AT ALL...NO rpg, dsHK, rpk ETC NONE AT ALL Right now what is happening over there is that basically the firearms that are in circulation in the Middle East and in other areas of terrorism across the world are automatic weapons that are only effective at close range. It changes everything for those American soldiers in Iraq if those American soldiers can be killed at 100 yards, 300 yards or 500 yards. The type of weapons that the registry is designed to collect and destroy are long guns that pose an enormous threat to the stability in the world if they get out of North America. OH GET A GRIP WHAT HAS IRAQ, THE MIDDLE EAST have to do with our gun registry...your pathetic attempt to have some form of linkage between l;aw abiding citizens and terrorists is a pathetic attempt to justify your own liberal governments anto civil rights law called C-68. MAYBE the terrorists will register their weapons huh?! So, Mr. Speaker, there are other reasons why the gun registry is very important but at the very least, everyone in this House and particularly those members of the opposition who are constantly saying that we should support the Americans well, I will tell you, Mr. Speaker, we should certainly support the Americans by putting all the controls on the distribution and black market collection of long guns. And with this gun registry that we have here in Canada, at least we will know that if long guns suddenly turn up in places like Iraq, they will not be coming from Canada. WHAT A STRETCH...who voted for this clown? Terrorists do not use expensive US made guns or the Diemaco for that matter...they want reliable stuff like AK 47, the universal weapon of choice of terrorists. So since canada does not have a viable arms industry and we do not produce AK 47 or any variants therof, this pompous windbag has wasted parliaments time on this lamer speech. But he did slander every law abiding citizen in this country that owns a gun by trying to link our use with that of terrorists. Moron..a complete moron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:46:26 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Gang of youths uses gun to rob couple http://www.thebramptonguardian.com/br/news/newsbriefs/story/1374111p-1618944c.html >From Brampton Guardian Friday, September 26th, 2003 Gang of youths uses gun to rob couple The Peel police Central Robbery Bureau and Peel Crime Stoppers are asking for help in solving a Brampton armed robbery. On Sunday, Sept. 14, at approximately 9:40 p.m., the victims-- a young man and his girlfriend-- were walking in Calvert Park near the bocce courts when they were approached by a group of seven males. One of the males pulled out a handgun and demanded that the victims turn over their property. The frightened couple complied and, as the woman tried to leave, a second suspect pulled out another handgun and pointed it at her throat. A struggle started between her boyfriend and the gunman and the two victims managed to escape and call police. The suspects all ran away. The first suspect is described as male, black, 18 to 20 years, 5-foot-9, 150 pounds, wearing glasses, a bandanna, and an NFL Kansas City Chief's football jersey. He was armed with a black handgun. The second suspect is male, black, 18 to 20 years, 6-foot-2, with a medium build. He was wearing a grey hooded sweatshirt and was armed with a silver semi-automatic handgun. The other five suspects are described only as black males. If you can help solve this crime or any other crime, Crime Stoppers would like to hear from you. If police make an arrest as a result of your call, you could become eligible for a cash reward. With Crime Stoppers you never have to give your name, you never have to testify in court and there is no call display. Crime Stoppers can be reached 24 hours a day, seven days a week, by calling toll free 1-800-222-TIPS (8477). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:47:12 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Bury gun registry http://www.saultstar.com/webapp/sitepages/content.asp?contentid=44395&catname=Editorials >From Sault Star Bury gun registry Sault Star Editorial Staff Friday, September 26, 2003 - 09:00 Editorials - Let’s put the Canadian gun registry to rest. Bury it so deep that no other federal program gets infected with the malaise that has cost taxpayers so much and given them so little. Canadian Alliance MP Barry Breitkreuz has disclosed that one of the major supposed benefits of the registry, tracking stolen weapons, has been one of its worst failures. Only 4,438 firearms have been matched with more than 100,000 stolen guns the program tried to trace. Moreover, serial numbers for 250,305 registered firearms matched the serial numbers of 101,835 guns police reported stolen since 1998 because serial numbers are often duplicated by the gun-making industry. All the stolen rifles and shotguns that were traced had to be located by comparing models, brands and other physical features. The idea of registering guns was noble. It also seemed simple when proposed. After all, if all our cars and even our dogs are regularly licensed, why not guns? Especially since guns are generally regarded as being potentially more dangerous than cars or dogs. Besides that, Canada did not have to reinvent the wheel when it came to registering firearms. So many countries around the world have various levels of gun control that it should have been a simple matter to pattern our system after one or more of those. So, what went wrong in Canada? How come the system is forecast to cost $1 billion — which means it will surely be more, judging by other regular government overruns — and it grotesquely fails to deliver? The whole setup is so dismally bad that it’s hard to believe this is an example of mere incompetence. It reeks of corruption, or deliberate sabotage. This is not merely a waste of money — if $1 billion can ever be described as “mere,” considering the good it could have done if applied to health care or education or effective gun control through extra policing. The failure throws discredit on the entire government and public service, standing out as an egregious example of how to do things wrong. If they can screw this up so badly, how can anyone expect them to do anything right? It also diminishes the likelihood Canada will have an effective and efficient gun registry anytime soon. Even if this one were to be thrown into the fire holus-bolus, taxpayers are unlikely to support starting a new one from scratch because the memory of this debacle will be so painful for so long. Too bad. Gun registry was a good idea. It still is. But the execution of the concept has been an unmitigated disaster in Canada, and it’s got to go. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:48:01 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: here here Jim Powlesland wrote: > On Wed, 24 Sep 2003, Bruce Mills wrote: > > > I don't know what else I can say, or what else I can do. > > I have subscribed to this list as far back as the early 90s when C-68 > was just a rumour. > > It was quite exciting when this digest was used to organize massive > rallies on Parliament Hill, etc. > > The big disappointment came when the RFC organizations (NFA in > particular) failed to effect any meaningful opposition to this > legislation. Basically all of them collapsed like a cheap house of cards > after licensing came in. > > Today this digest is just a news clipping service. However that is no > fault of the digest. It is merely reflecting today's reality. I think Jim is right, to a certain extent - in that the Digest is reflecting both a lack of leadership on the part of the various "gun rights" organizations, as well as a general lack of direction overall. For example, none of the major firearms organizations have taken a stand, or offered advice, or initiated any plans with respect to the Ontario Provincial Election. Since this is the venue where the next Federal Election will be won or lost, this would have been a perfect opportunity for these organizations to "get the word out", organize, cultivate political contacts, build riding action teams, et cetera, as a prelude to the Fed election next year. As far as I can tell, they have done nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Rien. They all seem pretty much dormant. Then there is the amendments to the Regulations that are currently sitting before Parliament, awaiting some form of debate in Committee (if they even get there). Dennis Young has posted recently that the Clerk has yet to receive one submission regarding these amendments. None of the leading firearms groups has provided any direction on this matter, either: some interpretation of the proposed ammendments, what they really mean, what sections to be concerned about, what to do about them, who to contact. There is a lot to be said for individual action and effort, but there is only so much that can be done. Not everyone is willing or able to put their liberty on the line, and face firearms act charges; those that do are to be commended as heroes. I know that I'm having a hard enough time just maintaining the Digest, writing letters to the editor and MPs; these things alone will have limited effect. We need someone or some organization to step up to the plate and carry the torch, to provide us with some modicum of leadership and direction, make some suggestions that the rest of us can put into effect. I know it's a thankless task, and it's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it. Yours in Liberty, Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:48:36 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: OHAF position Gordon Hitchen wrote: > Personally I oppose all licensing or firearms owners and their property. I feel > accepting licensing is akin to giving up a right. > > However from a practical point of view I cannot realistically see any government > doing that in the current climate. I would reluctantly agree to register > handguns and fully automatic firearms and accept that only persons without a > violent criminal record possess them. > > Possession of all other firearms should be a citizens choice with the government > only able to remove that right when it can prove abuse or perhaps mental > incapacity to be responsible in a public Court hearing. > No one should have to have a firearms licence just to own a duck gun or deer > rifle or varmit gun, for that matter. > > Actually I would love to see all firearms legislation become the property of > individual provinces with the Federal Government's involvement only coming into > force with the violation of Federal Laws. As the antis like to say, "that is > the way it is with automobiles". > > There is certainly much room for discussion of this but some consideration must > be given to what the general public will accept when we state what we think will > be ideal. > > Gordon Hitchen > Responsible Firearms Owners of Alberta. I agree with Gordon on most of the points he made: Licensing is Evil. Having said that, I also agree that the current political climate is such that it is doubtful that we can make the vast majority of the citizenry understand that point, and get any political party to support the elimination of licensing. The general consensus is that the pre-intrusive question, bare bones FAC of 1973 is an acceptable "fall back" position, as a good starting point. From there, we can continue to work on eliminating all forms of licensing and registration, and enshrining the right to property and to keep and bear arms in the Charter of Rights. I disagree with Gordon that registration of handguns and fully automatic firearms is something we should be willing to allow, reluctantly or otherwise. Registration is registration, and is evil in any of its forms. Yours in Liberty, Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:49:46 -0600 (CST) From: Fred Hoenisch Subject: C-68's licensing requirements Thanks Gordon for taking the time to respond to my post. What OFAH has gone and done in its municipality motion is call upon Parliament to retain the licensing components of C-68. By specifying 'C-68' in the motion, they are saying "We accept that Possession Only Licenses (POLs) are a good thing and that gun owners should have a license. If they let it lapse (too damn bad) - they should have all their guns taken away and not be allowed to buy ammo until they take a course and pass an exam and pay lots of money to get a PAL (oh and continually have people investigating them and justify why they need their property every time they need to renew)." Hello, is there anybody in there? What kind of nonsense is that? Do the police or motor vehicles branch come knocking at your door to take away your car when your driver's license expires and/or is revoked? No of course not. So why are guns different? Cars kill more people than guns do. I can't help but wonder if this OFAH Board of Directors are the same people who have said, "You know the Firearm lobby should have been a lot stronger and organised when C-68 (and/or C-17) was first introduced?" People, it's time to band together and let OFAH know that you don't support their position. I personally haven't seen any evidence that proves that licensing has provided a net benefit to society (show me the scientific studies?), but that being said, I don't believe a political party in Canada would consider abandoning licensing altogether at this point. So therefore, we should be pushing them to abandon the POL idea and, not accept anything less than the old FAC system. Anything less and all our guns will be gone within 5-10 years. Fred in Victoria ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:56:43 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: eaSTER: GUN REGISTRY IS "ReaLLY WORKING" House of Commons Debates Friday, September 26, 2003 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Unedited copy - not official until printed in Hansard * * * Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo-Chilcotin, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, in tracking stolen guns over the past five years, the federal gun registry has matched only 4,438 firearms with the descriptions of more than 101,000 stolen weapons that the firearms centre attempted to trace. What a success rate, less than 5%, or, put another way, a failure rate of more than 95%. With the current $1 billion price tag that is about $225,000 per firearm and now the registry is looking for another $10 million, at what percentage beyond 95% does the government consider the gun registry program a failure? Hon. Wayne easter (Solicitor General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I reject the comment that the member made about the $10 million of new spending. I have answered that previously. That is not new spending. The firearms registry is not spending a cent more than what we outlined in our targets in the beginning. As far as the hon. member's question goes specifically, he should be congratulating us. What he is really saying is the firearms system is working in tracing stolen and unregistered guns. That is where it is really working. * * * [English] Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the PM's Chief of Staff, Eddie Goldenberg, has told his bureaucrats, "We've been caught on the expense accounts--better smarten up". Well, this government has been caught on Shawinigate, on the Groupaction scandal, on the HRDC billion dollar boondoggle. Why is it that this Liberal government's specialty seems to be to spend money on themselves and keep getting caught wasting billions of dollars of money which provides absolutely no benefit whatsoever to any Canadian except themselves? [Français] L'hon. Lucienne Robillard (présidente du Conseil du Trésor, Lib.): Monsieur le Président, il est tout à fait normal que de façon régulière on rappelle les normes devanteatre respectées par l'ensemble du gouvernement et des cabinets politiques, d'autant plus que dans la fonction publique il y a maintenant, de façon formelle et officielle, un code de valeur et d'éthique que tous se doivent de respecter. Par conséquent, il est tout à fait normal que les chefs de cabinet ou les sous-ministres disent à leur personnel qu'ils doivent toujours agir dans l'intérêt public. [English] Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, this is the whole point. They wait until it has all fallen apart before they say follow the rules. From champagne Charlie Boyer who spent $30,000 to the billion dollar gun registry that cost us a billion dollars, it always seem to be money down the drain. My question for the Prime Minister is: How can Canadian taxpayers have any confidence whatsoever in this tired Liberal government or any government for that matter which continues to waste money and cannot even run the country efficiently? [Français] L'hon. Lucienne Robillard (présidente du Conseil du Trésor, Lib.): Monsieur le Président, il est impossible de tenir deux discours à la fois: d'un côté, demander que les contrôles soient renforcés au sein du gouvernement et, d'un autre côté, se scandaliser quand on découvre des actes qui n'auraient pas dû se produire. Quand on renforce toute la fonction de contrôleur moderne dans le gouvernement du Canada, quand on renforce toute la politique de vérification interne, et que maintenant on a de meilleures informations fournies par les vérificateurs internes, il est tout à fait normal qu'on le fasse de façon transparente pour que tous les parlementaires soient au courant de la ... Le vice-président: L'honorable député de Nepean-Carleton a la parole. * * * MEMBERS' STATEMENTS * * * Mr. Brian Pallister (Portage-Lisgar, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the new Liberal leader is not really new. He has a record. He wrote the red book of broken promises. He promised to eliminate the GST: broken. He promised an independent ethics counsellor: broken. He promised a sex offenders registry: broken. In 1999 he voted for marriage and just the other day he voted against it. He claims he will end the democratic deficit, but he blocks attempts by rivals to sign up new party members. He is not a good manager. He inherited a robust economy which was none of his doing. He fudged the books by cutting health care and education transfers to the provinces and blamed them. He signed the cheques for the out of control billion dollar gun registry. He overcharged working Canadians by $45 billion on their EI premiums. Only by Liberal standards would this be called good management. * * * ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #517 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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