From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #541 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Saturday, October 4 2003 Volume 06 : Number 541 In this issue: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #539 Shots fired near Scarborough school AOB asked. Time to open a Second Front Re: Loaded vs Readied Re: Captain "Rupert" Falls Re: Stupid statements - Canadian Commanders in Kabul The arrest of Doctor Hudson. Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #539 News Story : Big decline in Quebec's gang-related killings, McGuinty eager to forge closer ties with Quebec ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 22:32:01 -0600 (CST) From: "JP Poulin" Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #539 >Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 12:40:53 -0600 (CST) >From: "Jason Hayes" >Subject: Any doubt that McGuinty and the fedLibs are one and the same? > >I feel for you folks in Ontario. That's nice to know. We're screwed! If we had any chance it was with the Tories, but they didn't do much about the Firearms issue. Just talk. Hell, they even killed the spring bear hunt. Our riding voted the Tories out because of that. Too much double talk on the firearms issue with them. At least we know what the Liberals will do. Guaranteed to enforce C-68 to the letter now. JP Poulin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 22:55:03 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Shots fired near Scarborough school http://www.canada.com/toronto/news/story.asp?id=6EFD10EF-8B16-4E3B-A8A0-B3236949B5C2 Shots fired near Scarborough school Thursday, October 02, 2003 TORONTO -- A report that shots were fired near an east-end polling station on Thursday prompted police to seal voters and schoolchildren inside a school, an Elections Ontario official said. Police were on the scene and closed off Brookmill Public School, with five polling stations inside, in the riding of Scarborough-Agincourt after shots were heard, Heather Bussey said. ''No one can leave and no one can go in,'' Bussey said. The school was reopened after being sealed for about an hour. Polling officials at the school refused to comment, noting only that the police had arrived at 2:15 p.m. and stayed for two hours. Bussey said there was a report to the Elections Ontario calling centre that shots were fired near the school as voters turned up to cast ballots in Thursday's provincial election. Police rushed to the scene and sealed pupils and voters inside. A caretaker at the school later found a window had been cracked by a pellet. Police said an investigation was underway but no further details were immediately available. The polling station was to remain open an extra 45 minutes to account for the time it had been shut down. © Copyright 2003 Canadian Press ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 01:09:19 -0600 (CST) From: Barry Snow Subject: AOB asked. Bruce said: >Subject: Re: CFD 534 Subject: PAL refund: $10;$20;or$30 >RFOCBC wrote: >> >> There has been no change to the fees for RENEWING A PAL. >That is because there are no provisions for actually RENEWING a PAL. Each >application is treated as a new application, with all the requirements and >scrutiny given a first time applicant. There are no shortcuts except for the >waving of the 28 day waiting period required for a new PAL. As I have said before, because they waive the 28 day period, there IS a renewal. Because there is a renewal, there is no fee as there was no fee specified for a renewal. (On the other hand, I am finished my 275 day waiting period.) Now, the amendment to the regulations; fees, which was published in the Canada Gazette says that a renewal will be the same as an original application. This is further evidence that there is no such fee as of yet. I believe that these were the regs which are in some type of committee that is asking for submissions? The other side of the coin is that attempting to get a response to this statement is like talking to an interesting fence post. There is just another request for money although the request has decreased to $50. >Lucky us. Maybe so. Oh yeah, "Deanna" wants another call. Been way too swamped lately. Barely time to skim the digests after work. >Yours in Liberty, >Bruce >Hamilton >Ontario Barry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 01:11:52 -0600 (CST) From: "Tom Falls" Subject: Time to open a Second Front A few years ago, a friend and I were talking about the stresses and strains of modern life - in particular, "cubicle dwellers" and minor functionaries who are trapped between policy and irate "customers". We spoke of workplace conflict resolution policies and the frustrations that must overwhelm so many workers, for example, the fine people at the CFC site in Miramachi. "You know" he said, "you may be on to something there." Maybe. I think that when dogma meets the dayshift the first thing to give way is civility. Various forms of conflict soon follow. Couple this with your standard mix of supervisors and employees with severe to profound character flaws - or even just day to day weakness related issues - and the workplace can soon become hell. Just ask some Privacy Commision workers. And this would concern us because...? Because the very people who could render each other emotionally incapable of doing their jobs are the same people who can make our lives a bureaucratic nightmare. Interestingly enough, much of the public service is covered by the "Treasury Board Secretariat's Policy on the Prevention and Resolution of Harassment in the Workplace" as well as other policies, but a lot of government agencies, organizations and commissions are not. The division appears to be the Public Service Staff Relations Act, Schedule 1, Part 1. Organizations in Part1 are "Public Service", subject to Treasury Board Secretariat Policies such as those on ethics and values as well as harassment policy. For example, the Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada, The National Parole Board, The Immigration and Refugee Board, and - encouragingly - the Canadian Firearms Centre are covered. (Other organizations listed in Schedule 1, Part 2 are "separate employer" and do not have to follow TBS Policies. http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/p-35/text.html. For example, the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency). Now, check out the "Internal Disclosure of Wrongdoing" on this Card; http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/veo-bve/poli-DI-card_e.asp. This card is to encourage public servants to report wrongdoing - an act or omission concerning violations of any laws or regulations, misuse of public funds or assets, gross mismanagement (emphasis mine), or a substantial and specific danger to the health and safety of Canadians or the environment. Also check out the newly released (Sep 2003) Values and Ethics Code for the Public Service of Canada: http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/TB_851/vec-cve_e.asp. Read the elaborations for "Democratic Values, Professional Values, Ethical Values, and People Values": Democratic Values: Assisting Ministers, under law, to serve the public interest. Professional Values: Serving with competence, excellence, efficiency, objectivity and impartiality. Ethical Values: Acting at all times in such a way as to uphold the public trust. People Values: Demonstrating respect, fairness and courtesy in their dealings with both citizens and fellow public servants. Not bad, eh? These policies are real, and they are in force. So... As loyal citizens, we should take an interest in our public servants. In our day-to-day dealings with them, registering firearms and so on, we should ask them if they are aware of these policies. Show some concern and enquire as to the "Climate of Command" in their particular workplace. How are they treated? Do they know who to report harassment or ethical or professional dilemmas to? Are they aware of the systems in place to protect them when they submit a complaint under these policies? It ain't easy being just another cog in the wheel when the wheel seems to be falling off the machine. The thousands of public servants who want to stop the abuse now appear to have a few more tools with which to do so. Give them your moral and verbal support. Tell them Canadians know about the Values and Ethics code and want them to use it. Tell them they are the canaries in the mine shaft, and when things go wrong, they will be the first to know, and.. Tell them we know how important this is. Tom Falls ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 01:14:20 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Subject: Re: Loaded vs Readied "Tom Falls" wrote: > did handling tests on our C7 s, C8 s, M203 s and pistols. Our attitude > towards readying a weapon was that it was no big deal, and if you felt that > you should chamber a round then you probably better. I told my troop that I > would rather go to my Court Martial than their funeral, and that seemed to > be the general consensus of all the leadership there. I would give the same > instructions today. That attitude from morons about not having one up the spout isn't anything new, however. And what NCO's do once they get outside the gate often isn't what their "betters" have told them they should do. Our platoon Rupert in Yugo (after his fellow Ruperts established our OP well INSIDE the Croat lines when we weren't supposed to be there) had a confrontation with the Croats and got them stirred up like a hornet's next. Then he went back to the safety of base camp, and I took my section out to the OP for the evening to deal with the situation he had created. The Croats there were led by an old Foreign Legion NCO who had come back to Yugo after retiring, and you don't screw around with Legionnaires. They also had a habit of walking around with Uzis slung around their necks in their hands - very handy indeed. Anyway, the Legionnaire and some of his buddies had a bit to drink and then decided to pay us an evening visit. When they came clomping down the road, I told the guys to make ready and made sure my C-6 gunner got into the gun pit and visibly behind the gun. Pretty anticlimatic after that - they breathed alcohol fumes on us a bit, yelled a little bit, and handled their weapons a little bit while eyeballing Lurch on the C6 who had them in defilade from about 25 meters, and then they went back to their bunkers. But we were also under orders at that time not to have a round up the spout and I had a slimely little private who ratted me out to the Rupert. So the Rupert came down to chew my ass for endangering my men. I told him the WO told me he was the one who got the Croats killing mad, not me, and my men were NOT going to stand around with unloaded rifles while a bunch of drunk Croats with Uzis slung around their necks worked themselves into a rage just a few steps away. He left with promises to "charge my ass". It never happened, but getting threatened with a charge I could have beat in my sleep under those conditions was the very least of our problems at the moment. It certainly showed the mentality of the Ruperts we were working for. That Lieutenant is now a Captain - proving yet again that almost no amount of incompetence will ever be a bar to promotion within the officer ranks of the CF. My opinion on this is simple: if a soldiers - or cops - can't be trusted with loaded firearms and their safe handling, then they should find themselves another line of work. Given enough men, enough firearms, and enough handling, there WILL be negligent discharges. I had a .50 cal round go over my head followed by "Oops... sorry about that" in one of the more memorable moments of my life. And I find those rare negligent discharges a more than acceptable risk of the profession. They're punished severely - as they should be - to keep guys on their toes and reinforce the importance of weapons handling. And that's why we have hardly any. There will always be that risk. But it beats running around with empty weapons. I have more than once wondered if the problem is we don't train soldiers from day one with loaded firearms. My WO spent some time in the RLI and then the Rhodesian SAS before moving on to 44 Pathfinder in South Africa before coming back home to Canada. He told me they trained recruits from day one with loaded rifles - there was never any question as to whether a firearm was loaded or not. Look at that and then look at Canadian troops in garrison - rifles pointed every which way, guys playing Daniel Boone by leaning on the muzzle of their rifle, etc. It is unrealistic to allow that kind of weapons handling for months while garritrooping and then expect a flawless change to careful weapons handling just because you got shipped to a war zone. Guys do change, but well reinforced old habits don't just go away. When I taught recruits at the battle school, I beasted my guys from Day 1 about muzzle control and fingers out of trigger guards. I think a lot of the other NCO's thought I was nuts, but I believe the guys I trained had significantly better weapons handling skills. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 01:15:53 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Subject: Re: Captain "Rupert" Falls "Mike Hargreaves" > Capt Falls had his stuff right, if you don't play with weapons they will = "Captain" Falls???????? Why you sneaky thing you... and here I thought you were a fellow NCO all this time. Ossifer, huh? Well, there goes your reputation... Ah hahahahahaha.... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 01:16:42 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Subject: Re: Stupid statements - Canadian Commanders in Kabul Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote: "Barry Holland" > I have to wonder where these officers got their training. What they are = > saying is utter NONSENSE. When a soldier comes under effective enemy = > fire his first reaction is NOT to dive for cover. His first reaction is, = > in sequence- Ah that's right, I forgot about "double tap, dash, down, crawl, sights, observe"... most basic thing they teach an infanteer. I wonder if they still teach that; with the FN "sights" was supposed to be to remind you to flip up the rear aperture sight. I am still in awe, however, of having been in a country whose combat riflery training program was titled "Shoot To Live"... The Americans had "Quick Kill" courses... we had "Shoot To Live"... Barry Holland... would you be Doug Setter's buddy, by chance? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 08:26:00 -0600 (CST) From: "Karl Schrader" Subject: The arrest of Doctor Hudson. Being the devil's advocate and taking a look at the legal actualities as they are at present: Having the highest regard and admiration for this group of unlicensed and unregistered fellow legal sufferers, I am unable to see how and in what way they will accomplish a removal of this stinking law. Certainly, they will have their day in court and will tell the judge that they think this law is unconstitutional but the judge will have no choice but to impose the prescribed penalty for having an unregistered firearm and no personal license for "owning" firearms.And if this goes all the way to the Supreme Court, the outcome will be the same. The power of the state by way of it's laws can not be changed by the courtsystem, it will have to be changed by parliament. Even if the Supreme Court is telling Parliament that it will have to change the law, as long as the "Liberals" are in "Power" and destroying any "Liberty" there is no chance for it.There was another case where the SCC told the government to change some law. Nothing was done so far. Or, the judge could tell Doctor Hudson to go and get a license and register his firearms within a certain time and letting the Liberals off the hook for the time being. Of course, this is only a preliminary view of what could happen and we all should watch this scenario unfold with utmost attention. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 08:26:56 -0600 (CST) From: 10x@telus.net Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #539 JP Poulin wrote: >At least we know what the Liberals will do. >Guaranteed to enforce C-68 to the letter now. Then the legislation might fail in the courts. Len Miller has an extensive defense for anyone charged under the licensing or registration provisions of the firearms act (formerly C-68). Note the problems Ed Hudson has had getting charges to stick. Note also that the media is now demonizing and vilifying those who own pellet pistols. Charges laid against a teenager for a pellet pistol the teen likely acquired legally? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 08:28:00 -0600 (CST) From: paul chicoine Subject: News Story : Big decline in Quebec's gang-related killings, Imagine that? Bad guys are arrested and put in jail and the crime rate goes down, amazing. **************** NEWS STORY Big decline in Quebec's gang-related killings, StatsCan says PAUL CHERRY The Gazette Saturday, October 04, 2003 Quebec appears to have shed its reputation as Canada's Wild West when it comes to gangland slayings. Newly released data from Statistics Canada show after averaging slightly more than 30 gang-related homicides in Quebec from 1998 to 2001, police across the province reported only six last year. The trend has been noticed by police for several months; they attribute it to an end of hostilities between the Hells Angels and their rivals the Bandidos. "They're all in jail, in the sense that the leaders are all in jail and the war stopped because you have no one giving orders anymore," said Commander André Bouchard, head of the Montreal police major crimes unit. "They've also decided: 'The cops are coming after us from every angle. Let's calm down.' " In March 2001, police across Quebec arrested as many as 120 members of the Hells Angels and their underling network. In June 2002, dozens of members of the Bandidos gang were arrested. Both police operations have resulted in several guilty pleas and prison sentences for crimes that include drug trafficking and conspiracy to commit murder. Bouchard notes only three or four of the 33 homicides reported in Montreal so far this year appear to be gang-related. (Montreal police recently reported there have been 34 homicides, but one case is no longer on the list. The death of Jean-Pierre Calcé, whose badly decomposed body was discovered in May at his Prefontaine St. apartment, was removed from the list after a pathologist determined he died of a drug overdose after killing a prostitute.) Statistics Canada attributes a substantial drop in gang-related homicides reported across Canada to the reduction in Quebec. In 2001, there were 61 gang-related slayings reported across the country. Last year, there were 45. But while killings over drug turf are on the decline, the nation's overall homicide rate increased by 5.2 per cent, as 582 homicides were reported last year, 29 more than in 2001. As is the case most years, the majority of homicide victims in 2002 knew the person who killed them. Forty-four per cent of homicides reported last year were committed by an acquaintance, while 40 per cent involved family members. Montreal appears to be following the same trend in 2003, Bouchard said. "What we have more of this year is family disputes, quarrels between a wife and husband, things like that," he said. "I would say most of the homicides so far this year involved people who knew each other." - ------ Victims of Gang-Related Homicide Region 1998 1999 2000 2001* 2002 Canada 51 45 72 61 45 Atlantic 1 0 4 0 0 Quebec 31 30 38 23 6 Ontario 6 5 11 19 19 Prairies 6 5 9 9 13 British Columbia 7 5 10 10 7 Territories 0 0 0 0 0 Revised data SOURCE: statistics canada pcherry@thegazette.canwest.com © Copyright 2003 Montreal Gazette ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 09:08:39 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: McGuinty eager to forge closer ties with Quebec http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20031004/ULIBSM/TPNational/TopStories McGuinty eager to forge closer ties with Quebec By RICHARD MACKIE With a report from Timothy Appleby Saturday, October 4, 2003 - Page A1 Ontario's incoming Liberal government will work to build a harmonious relationship and increase trade with Quebec to take advantage of what premier-designate Dalton McGuinty calls "an historic opportunity" to make Canada and both provinces stronger. "Jean [Premier Jean Charest] and I are from the same generation. . . . He sat at this very table a number of times before he became Premier and we talked about how we have to work together to build strong provinces inside a strong federation," Mr. McGuinty said in an interview with The Globe and Mail at Queen's Park yesterday, the day after his Liberals routed the Progressive Conservatives by winning 72 of the legislature's 103 seats. Acknowledging that the full extent of his party's overwhelming victory is only starting to set in, Mr. McGuinty specified several other immediate priorities for his government. Reviewing the state of the province's finances and giving a full public statement on the potential deficit; Denying official party status to the seven MPPs elected for the New Democratic Party, unless a recount adds an eighth NDP member of the legislature; Establishing a public inquiry as soon as possible into the death of a native protester at Ipperwash Provincial Park eight years ago. The interview with Mr. McGuinty was conducted in his office minutes after he had been asked by Lieutenant-Governor James Bartleman to form a government. "I guess I'm starting to feel the weight of responsibility, a lot of people are counting on us," he confessed. Mr. McGuinty said he believes the people of Ontario want both a strong province and a strong federal government instead of the government-to-government battles that marked the Progressive Conservative regime. "They want both. They don't want to have to choose. And the sense they're getting of late is that we're convenient sparring partners when it comes to us and the feds. We continue to indulge ourselves in gamesmanship as opposed to moving the yardstick forward." He said he and Mr. Charest will work to lower the barriers to trade between their two provinces "so we can have more prosperous and stronger economies." This would be a step toward reducing trade barriers among all the provinces. "In some ways we have more barriers to trade with the province of Quebec than we do with Michigan. We have the most interjurisdictional barriers within a federation of any federation left on the face of the planet." He acknowledged that reducing interprovincial barriers to trade has been attempted unsuccessfully several times in the past decade. "The problem was they never put an authority in place" where business could seek redress if they felt they faced an unfair barrier to trade, Mr. McGuinty said. Another priority will be getting a handle on the province's finances. "We're going to get a good look at the books. . . . And then we'll make that information public so that we can put an end to the speculation and the guessing games," Mr. McGuinty said. An estimate released in the middle of the election campaign by the Fraser Institute put the size of the deficit at $4.5-billion. Mr. McGuinty said his party has been expecting a deficit of $2-billion but also has an extra $1-billion in reserve in its fiscal plans. A deficit of more than $3-billion could force the Liberal government to delay some of its more expensive plans to renew the health-care and education systems, he had said in the last days of the election campaign. A suggestion that the real deficit could be $8-billion drew a quick comment yesterday. "Don't even say those things. Not even as a joke." Mr. McGuinty repeated yesterday that the NDP must have eight members in the legislature to retain official party status. "The people of Ontario will make that decision. If these final numbers hold and there are no more shifts when it comes to the actual number of seats then we will respect the people's wishes," he said. He noted that in 1999, then-premier Mike Harris lowered the number of MPPs needed to gain status as an official party from 12 to eight to accommodate the New Democrats after their caucus had been reduced to nine members. "There was a rule in place. That rule has been changed once already. We'll respect that rule." Mr. McGuinty also confirmed that his government will establish an independent inquiry into the death of native Dudley George at the Ipperwash protest in 1995, as promised in the Liberal platform. The inquiry has been sought by the family of Mr. George, who was shot and killed by an Ontario Provincial Police officer during a police attempt to remove protesters from the park. Anticipating an inquiry would come under a Liberal government, the family dropped its civil suit against Mr. Harris and accepted a settlement of $100,000 plus legal costs with the OPP. Mr. George's older brother, Maynard, 51, welcomed the commitment. "We were thrilled and kind of relieved when we heard. . . . We will finally have a public inquiry, after eight years, and what we hope will come out of this is the truth so we and the public can finally find out why my brother Dudley died at the hands of an OPP sniper." ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #541 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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