From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #543 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, October 5 2003 Volume 06 : Number 543 In this issue: My letter to the Toronto Sun Re: Any doubt that McGuinty and the fedLibs are one and the same? Gun Deaths? Federal funds to flow, Ottawa Liberals say Re: CFD 541 Stupid statements - Canadian Commanders in Kabul Police fear they are losing control of gun-crazy Britain Observer editorial. CFDv6n541 Terms of Endearment Vancouver police conduct subject of police probe Governments and their Police Forces and Armies, Gun crime spreads 'like a cancer' across Britain ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 14:39:12 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: My letter to the Toronto Sun Just submitted, not yet printed. Have you written a letter today? - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: A cautionary tale about heavily armed goofballs Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 16:39:19 -0400 From: Bruce Mills To: Editor - Toronto Star In his hurry to demonize all guns, and all gun owners, Slinger's hoplophobia allows him to indulge in an intimate paranoid rant about Daniel Greig's arsenal of firearms, leaving out one all-important fact until the end: Daniel Grieg wasn't just a goofball, he was a criminal goofball. Not because he owned guns, but because he used guns in a criminal manner. He had been prohibited from owning guns for a previous criminal conviction. There is nothing illegal about owning any number of revolvers, or semi-automatic pistols, or pump action shotguns, or .223 semi-automatic rifles. There is nothing illegal about having more than three shotgun shells in a shotgun, unless you are out hunting. This is an Ontario hunting regulation, not a Firearms Act regulation. There is nothing illegal about loading your shotgun with buckshot shells. There is nothing illegal about taping two cartridge magazines together "combat style". There is no provision under the Firearms Act that makes it illegal to own firearm "not suitable for hunting". It is quite legal to hunt with a .223 semi automatic rifles - many are specifically made for "varmint hunting". In many jurisdictions it is quite legal to hunt with handguns. Mr. Justice Archie Campbell was making value judgements, not factual judgements, about Greig's guns. I know many gun owners who own hundreds of guns, even FULLY AUTOMATIC FIREARMS! They are not criminals; they are not goofballs; they are not gun crazy; they are not paranoid. They are law abiding citizens, who have never used their guns in the commission of a crime, like 99% of all gun owners in this country. Many of them are clean cut college graduates, including doctors, lawyers and Members of Parliament. But I guess since Slinger's sphincter puckers at the mere thought of someone owning such "arsenals", they all must be crazed madmen who cannot be trusted. Who is the paranoid one? Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 16:47:26 -0600 (CST) From: "John E. Stevens" Subject: Re: Any doubt that McGuinty and the fedLibs are one and the same? At 02:40 PM 10/3/2003, you wrote: > >OTTAWA (CP) - The House of Commons erupted in cheers from Liberals who >were positively giddy Friday over their provincial counterparts' >election landslide in Ontario. But, historically, the Federal Gov't and the Ontario Gov't are opposite. The election of a Liberal Gov't in Ontario, really is a Black day for Ontarians. But the Federal Liberals should be doing anything but cheering for, if History follows, the next federal election will turf the Lieberals. And we, in the community can only work all the harder to ensure that history holds true............. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 16:48:37 -0600 (CST) From: John Howat Subject: Gun Deaths? OTTAWA (CP) _ The rate of gun deaths in Canada fell to an all-time low last year, providing fresh ammunition for gun-control advocates and drawing envy from south of the border. The 26 per cent of homicides committed with a firearm was the lowest proportion since statistics were first collected in 1961, Statistics Canada reported Wednesday. In my world 'dead is dead' - what really matters is the total number of homicides, and even more importantly the total number of murders of respectable law abiding citizens. Was the total number reduced? If so was the reduction a 'blip' in the statistics or is it a trend downwards? Maybe it was a return to normality after a previous rise? What place has drug offences or gang policing played in this? To put this another way - the material being published is near worthless as the reporters have not presented the full picture. John Howat New Zealand ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 17:17:12 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Federal funds to flow, Ottawa Liberals say http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1065219008912&call_pageid=968256289824&col=968342212737 Federal funds to flow, Ottawa Liberals say SARS aid, housing and transit money on list New era of co-operation with province hailed LES WHITTINGTON OTTAWA BUREAU OTTAWA—Federal funds should start to flow to Ontario in the wake of Dalton McGuinty's election victory, senior federal Liberals say. A promised $250 million in SARS aid and hundreds of millions more for affordable housing, urban renewal and public transportation should become available now that the logjam between the federal and provincial governments has been broken, Liberals in Ottawa said yesterday. Also, federal-provincial agreements that will help with immigration in Ontario and aid employees seeking skills training in the province are expected to be signed soon, they said. It's all part of a new era of co-operation with Queen's Park proclaimed yesterday by the federal Liberal government, which has been squabbling with Ontario conservatives for years. "It's been tough for all of us, especially those from the big cities" dealing with the Ontario Tories, said Transport Minister David Collenette, who called Thursday's election the end "of eight years of darkness." New help for Toronto and other municipalities, which cabinet ministers here say has been systematically blocked by the provincial Conservatives, can now flow in a big way. Paul Martin, who becomes prime minister early next year, has like premier-elect Dalton McGuinty identified aid to cities as a priority. This means the next federal government is likely to match the new Ontario government's commitment to earmark two cents a litre of gasoline tax for urban transit, a move that between the two levels of government will create a major new source of revenue for hard-pressed public transit systems. Steve Mahoney, the junior minister in charge of housing, said the Ontario election is also a breakthrough in long-stalled efforts to build affordable housing in the province. The Mississauga MP said the McGuinty government is certain to match the $245 million for affordable housing already offered to Ontario by the federal government, with another $100 million available from Ottawa. "Given what the Tories were doing, which was nothing, I think we've now got a chance to meet the goal laid out by McGuinty of building 20,000 affordable housing units in four years," Mahoney said. Federal Liberals said they expect the new provincial government to quickly accept the $250 million Ottawa has made available to help pay the cost of the SARS crisis in Ontario. Premier Ernie Eves rejected the offer as inadequate. Human Resources Minister Jane Stewart said she is now hopeful that the two levels of government can forge ahead on agreements on day care and labour training. Ontario is the only province not to sign a federal-provincial deal to enhance skills and education opportunities for employees. "I'm anticipating a very good relationship. There are a number of issues that we've been dealing with in my department, whether it be skills development issues, whether it be relationships in investing in our ... children," Stewart said. Yesterday, Martin telephoned McGuinty to offer congratulations. The two exchanged best wishes and agreed to meet in the weeks ahead, although a date was not set. With files from Susan Delacourt and Valerie Lawton ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 19:00:55 -0600 (CST) From: John Coupland Subject: Re: CFD 541 Stupid statements - Canadian Commanders in Kabul awpaob@telus.net wrote: >Rick I know I give my age away However "Shoot to Live" was originally >"Shoot to Kill" when first issued around 1947 if I recall correctly and >that it evolved from the "Johnson Method used in 1945" that was then >changed to "Shoot to Live" to be politically correct some time later >possibly in the early 80's. > > Earlier than that. I've had my copy of "Shoot to Live" since 1965. John ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 08:01:37 -0600 (CST) From: David M Subject: Police fear they are losing control of gun-crazy Britain I wonder if it is beginning to dawn on any of the dim bulbs yet that gun laws don't actually prevent firearms crime all they do is define it? DM - ----------- Police fear they are losing control of gun-crazy Britain Tony Thompson, crime correspondent Sunday October 5, 2003 The Observer Police demanded new controls last night to combat soaring levels of gun crime, which senior officers described as 'a cancer' spreading across Britain. The calls for urgent action came as police launched an investigation into the shooting of three men in Berkshire, days after a jeweller was shot dead in Nottingham and hit men sprayed machine-gunfire in a busy street in Hertfordshire. On Tuesday, Marian Bates was shot dead as she tried to protect her daughter from two armed robbers who burst into her Nottinghamshire jewellers'. On Thursday, gangland figure Dave King was shot dead in Hertfordshire in a daylight machine-gun attack. On Friday night there was another shooting in Reading, a week after a crackdown on local drug dealers. Police are investigating reports that the two events may be related. With gun crime doubling since Labour came to power, Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Simon Hughes called last night for better controls on guns coming into the UK. 'The message to those who use guns to carry out their crimes must be clear and it must be tough,' he said. 'If someone uses a gun to commit a crime, he should get the toughest possible sentence handed down by the courts.' The Association of Chief Police Officers has previously called for closer links between police and local communities in order to tackle rising gun crime. 'We have a duty to the communities who live in the shadow of gun crime to step up our efforts to root out those who organise and carry out such acts of violence,' said a spokesman. 'The solutions, however, lie beyond the power of law enforcement agencies alone.' A Home Office spokesman said: 'The Government has announced a range of actions to tackle gun crime which, although still low, has seen an unacceptable rise in recent years. The Criminal Justice Bill includes our proposals for a five-year mandatory minimum sentence for illegal possession of a firearm. This is a clear demonstration of our commitment both to deter criminals from using firearms and to ensure that those who do receive appropriately tough sentences.' ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 08:03:00 -0600 (CST) From: David M Subject: Observer editorial. Let's rid the streets of guns Armed robbery puts us all at risk Leader Sunday October 5, 2003 The Observer On Friday morning a man was shot dead as he left a gym in Hoddesdon. On Friday evening three people were injured from gunshot wounds in a drive-by shooting in Reading. Earlier in the week, near Nottingham, a 64-year-old jewellery shop owner had been gunned down in front of her family. Every day brings further evidence of rising gun crime, now increasing by some 35 per cent a year. In the past 12 months there have been nearly 10,000 incidents involving firearms in England and Wales, and 97 gun-related murders. Middle England has tended to think the escalation of gun violence is related only to fratricidal wars between Afro-Caribbean or Eastern European gangs in inner cities it would never visit, the byproduct of a drugs trade it has nothing to do with. The consensus has been that while everyone would welcome less gun crime, its menace to 'respectable' middle-class people is minimal. This is a dangerous delusion. Marian Bates's jewellery shop was in a prosperous suburb of Nottingham; Hoddesdon is a quiet market town. The demand from drug gangs for firearms has created a trade in cheap lethal weapons, easily imported, often even sent by surface mail. Their use is becoming commonplace. In more than two-thirds of reported armed robberies in England and Wales, the weapon used was described as a small handgun. Reports are also rising of houseowners with expensive cars being threatened with guns at their homes. The number of armed robberies on public highways has also risen, by 19 per cent in a year. Last week, the Home Secretary, responding to the killing of Mrs Bates, pledged that Labour would defeat gun crime during a third term for Labour. But if he is to fulfil that pledge, the response must start now and be multi-pronged. David Blunkett is right to call for tough sentences for possessing unlicensed fire arms. But that will not be sufficient. Some 125,000 firearm licences were issued last year. To whom? For what? How regularly are certificate holders checked? Numbers of police on the street must be increased; visibility and speed of response to gun incidents is essential to their control. We need, too, greater protection for witnesses in gun crimes; in recent cases, including the tragic shooting last month of seven-year-old Toni-Ann Byfield, witnesses have failed to come forward, frightened to speak up. Finally, communities sheltering drug gangs responsible for gun crime have responsibilities, too. The consequences to their families of failing to act can be tragic. - ----------- Excuse me but I recall quite clearly Home Office Minister Alun Michael boasting that Labour had fulfilled its campaign promise and had removed all handguns from the streets of Britain. What has he to say for himself now I would like to know? And as for the writer of this editorial who says "Some 125,000 firearm licences were issued last year. To whom? For what? How regularly are certificate holders checked?" are they seriously suggesting that those who go through all the rigmarole of getting a firearms cert. in Britain are likely to be involved in the type of criminal activity that they are complaining of? One of the greatest impediments to solving the problem of rising gun crime in Britain today is the stupidity and complexity of the firearms legislation and the unbelievable ignorance of firearms matters of just about everyone not directly connected with the shooting sports. At least it seems that way to me. DM - ------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 08:04:33 -0600 (CST) From: "Tom Falls" Subject: CFDv6n541 Terms of Endearment This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01C38AD6.307F7640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would prefer to do this off line, but some confusion would remain, = so.. to Rick and anyone else who cares; my last promotion was to WO in = Lahr, Sep 1990. I remain a WO. I will no doubt retire as a WO. If = this changes, I'll take out an ad. Tom Falls [Moderator's Note: Please turn off HTML/MIME and/or "quoted-printable" encoding before posting messages to the Digest - plain text only. BNM] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 08:05:47 -0600 (CST) From: Robert LaCasse Subject: Vancouver police conduct subject of police probe Those are the privileges, of not being a legal Firearms owner. Hell, The Fuzz would have my Sports Pistols' Rifling Barrel Gouged and Ejector Port Snapped with their so called cable "trigger lock" system again! I appreciate that these litigators, can find a gun faster than we legal firearms can, with no hassle from the Gestappe! Not to mention they might have all pre-ban stuff, ready to go, hell maybe they need an ATC/CCW as well? In general, the police have this ego on their hip or back, that they thought would give them a Cart Blanche "pour faire ninporte quoi"...as in a total police dictatorship country...That's not gonna happen here in America, got that, I do things legally, I'm not some kind of Red Coat=Grey Coat. In General The Vampire Police Department VPD have all these different classes rookies, that shift around like brainstorming nothings, and are not considered as experienced adults as far as I have experienced with their incompetence and unfounded gun power arrogance! Conducting this aired investigation is just a media cover for the ERT/CLEU/ATF/MASAAD/"DDTDepartment of Dirty Tricks"/ETC., of gross united activities for the last 50 years, for the preservation of extreme police! If these youths are guilty, "hang them", if not, "hang the police officers". I know Vandals and Cops, sometimes it's hard to draw the line on these "matters" Anyone ever get helped by a brainwashed Cop..Yeah right, sure, and if so guess who caused the incident...Their protection racket and other side "Do-Gooders" still does not impress me yet...<----My voice of experience! Yours in Justice Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 11:37:48 -0600 (CST) From: Ed Tait Subject: Governments and their Police Forces and Armies, as Tolstoy told it......and he should certainly have known..... Governments need armies to protect them from their enslaved and oppressed subjects. - -- Leo Tolstoy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 13:29:38 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Gun crime spreads 'like a cancer' across Britain http://observer.guardian.co.uk/crimedebate/story/0,12079,1056411,00.html Gun crime spreads 'like a cancer' across Britain As the number of weapons on the streets grows and shootings become the norm, gun law is back at the top of the political agenda Tony Thompson Sunday October 5, 2003 The Observer Few people paid much attention when, late last month, Shabir Hussain and his friend Mohammed Shabir were jailed for 11 years at Birmingham Crown Court. Working with rudimentary tools in the basements of their homes, the pair had set themselves up as armourers to the local underworld, converting blank firing pistols into lethal weapons. They produced more than 170 guns and sold them to gangs from Bristol to Manchester. One week after the jailings, the murder of Nottingham jewellery shop owner Marian Bates, the gunning down of Hertfordshire gangster Dave King, and a drive-by shooting in Reading in which three men were injured on Friday night, as well as last month's shooting of seven-year-old Toni Ann Byfield, have brought the issue of gun crime to the top of the political agenda. According to the Association of Chief Police Officers, gun crime is 'growing like a cancer' and spreading to smaller communities. Police intelligence suggests Shabir and Hussain were the tip of the iceberg. Hundreds of similar gun factories have been set up in homes across the country and detectives admit guns are being put on the streets more quickly than they can take them off. For the past 12 months police in Nottingham have been running Operation Stealth, an anti-firearms initiative. The team has made more than 580 arrests and recovered 160 weapons, 10 fewer than the Birmingham duo produced in a quarter of the time. The murder rate in Nottinghamshire has almost doubled. 'We're getting the right information,' says Assistant Chief Constable Peter Ditchett, 'but we're just not getting enough of it.' Last year saw a record 35 per cent jump in gun crimes, which means there are now, on average, 30 incidents each day. There were almost 10,000 incidents involving firearms recorded in England and Wales and, although the largest increases were in metropolitan areas, the figures showed use of handguns was also growing in rural communities. Overall, handguns were used in almost half of these incidents. Handgun crime has soared past levels last seen before the Dunblane massacre of 1996 and the ban on ownership of handguns introduced the year after Thomas Hamilton, an amateur shooting enthusiast, shot dead 16 schoolchildren, their teacher and himself in the Perthshire town. It was hoped the measure would reduce the number of handguns available to criminals. Now handgun crime is at its highest since 1993. As well as being converted from air guns and blank firing weapons, handguns are being imported from eastern Europe and beyond. A good quality semi-automatic handgun can be bought on the streets of London for as little as £200. New laws that make carrying a firearm an offence with a mandatory five-year sentence have won little favour with officers on the street. 'It changes nothing,' said one drug squad detective who asked to remain anonymous. 'Most of the kids carry guns in order to protect themselves when they are dealing. They are going around with enough crack or heroin to ensure that they go away for 10 years if they get caught. Because of that, they feel they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by carrying a gun. They carry them just for the hell of it.' Notorious underworld figure Joey Pyle agrees. 'In the old days, during the time of the Krays and the Richardsons, people didn't go around with guns on them all the time. You only got tooled up if you were out on a bit of work. That's all changed now. For a lot of people out there, having a gun is little more than a fashion accessory.' Although much of the blame has fallen on trends in music and fashion, particularly within the black community, which have helped to glamourise weapons, the problem is now spreading into other sectors of society. The Metropolitan Police's flagship and hugely successful Operation Trident is described as an initiative against black-on-black gun related crime in the capital. In Nottingham, Operation Stealth has been criticised for concentrating on the problem of gun crime within the black community but, with both suspects in the latest shooting there being white, this focus is now being questioned. 'It's no longer a black or white issue,' says Lyndon Gibson of the Urban Nation Youth Project. 'These guns are in the hands of the whole community. Guns are everywhere and they are being used by everyone.' Assistant Chief Constable Nick Tofiluk, of the West Midlands Police, agrees. 'The use of firearms is not an Afro-Caribbean issue alone. White and Asian networks exist that possess firearms and are involved in the supply of illicit drugs both to the Afro-Caribbean networks and in competition with existing networks. The potential for inter-ethnic criminal disputes is increasing.' The suspects in the murder of Dave King in Hoddesdon were wearing masks but some witnesses have described them as being white. King, who worked as a security guard to a number of high-profile musicians and also had links to the boxing world, was well known to local police. Assistant Chief Constable Jeremy Alford says the Hertfordshire Police investigation will be looking closely at King's associates. 'I can say that he is a person who had some criminal convictions in the past and his past could be described as involving some considerable criminality.' A police spokeswoman said a second man who was injured in the shooting had been discharged from hospital and was at a secret location. She said forensic officers were continuing to examine the scene and a vehicle - thought to be the van used by the gunmen - which had been found burnt out and abandoned in the Lampits area of Hoddesdon.. King's murder came amid heightened concern over gun crime after a mother was shot dead in Nottingham while trying to protect her daughter from armed robbers. Marian Bates, 64, leapt in front of her daughter as one of the two young criminals aimed a handgun at the 34-year-old and demanded gems from the family shop. Her husband of 42 years, Victor, 64, suffered head injuries in the struggle, Mr Bates said the gunman had first attempted to shoot him but the weapon misfired. 'My wife ran forward to get between the gunman and my daughter and he shot her dead. She was a brave woman, not at all foolhardy. She was protecting her daughter, like every mother.' Victor Bates has called on the Government to take action to end the problem of gun crime. Home Secretary David Blunkett has promised action. He is believed to be pinning many of his hopes on the new head of the Home Office's Police Standards Unit, Paul Evans, who previously worked in the American city of Boston, significantly reducing gun crime. 'I want him to bring that experience and share it with us. I want the experience of the Metropolitan Police in London, with Operation Trident dealing with gang warfare, guns and drugs, to be spread across the country. If we can do that, I think we can take these people on and we can beat them,' Blunkett said. The most recent shooting incident took place in Elm Park, Reading, Berkshire, when three men were blasted with a shotgun. Just before 10.30pm on Friday the men were hit by shots fired from a dark blue or black Volvo-type car, Thames Valley Police said. One of the victims suffered serious facial injuries, the other two shotgun wounds to their arms and back. All three were taken to the Royal Berkshire Hospital in Reading, where the man with facial injuries was undergoing surgery. A Thames Valley Police spokeswoman said: 'None of the injuries is believed to be life threatening.' ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #543 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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