From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #591 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Friday, October 17 2003 Volume 06 : Number 591 In this issue: Acts of violence Re: Sorry if this offends, but I must make this suggestion United RFC? Reference the RFC, Ottawa office. Sorry if this offends, but I must make this suggestion Re: NFA Re: REVIEW - Innocents Betrayed I'm With Dr. Mike: Give the NFA The Money! NFA CREDIBILITY RE: Sorry if this offends, but I must make this suggestion Cabbie tells court of police officer's death threats ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:49:16 -0600 (CST) From: "ross" Subject: Acts of violence Subject: Re: Acts of violence - - ----- Original Message ----- From: "ross" To: Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 10:35 AM Subject: Acts of violence > We should all be afraid..every citizen in this country should fear our > government and the single purpose grouops who want us totally disarmed, and > turned into victims. > > Why do they want that??????? It's probably part of the Socialist / Globalizationist twenty year plan for social re-engineering of the masses. Stalin would probably have had wet dreams reading their manifesto. GOOD START keep going. WHY do they want this????? WHO are they?????? IS IT a party or individuals, GROUPS or single persons????? Let us dig them out, seek them out, find out WHY!!! We do not truly know our enemies, we only know they are "them".....they have not been identified WAS MARC LEPINE the catalyst, or just a convenient excuse. There are people on this digest who have access, people who are in the know. The time is now to let this out while the Cretin is still in, and Martain is not. Two birds with one stone. One will be gone, the other discredited. The truth is out there...find it, expose it ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:50:48 -0600 (CST) From: The Jordan's Subject: Re: Sorry if this offends, but I must make this suggestion Bruce Mills wrote in digest #689: "I don't have a beef with the NFA as an organization. My beef is with the self-serving, egomaniacal, tin pot dictators who have hijacked it for their own aggrandizement. Not unless and until Jimminy Hinder complies fully with the COURT ORDERS to hold an election for the Executive and to conduct a complete audit of the NFA finances will I bestow my support upon them. The secrecy, the censorship, the lying must stop. " END QUOTE. MY COMMENTS: Not only must that happen - but also Jimmini dear must resign and a new president must be properly elected. Personally I would NEVER put any dollars or support to the NFA until such a major overhaul has been done and "responsible, accountable" people have replaced those that have done wrong. The "concept" of NFA was good, as was the "original intentions" of NFA (just like the concept of an Ottawa RFC office was fantastic in theory). The hijacking and abuse changed all that in the case of NFA. No - I would never recommend redirecting the funds there until specific changes took place. Perhaps one day that will happen, but while Jimmini and others are enjoying the use of members money, forget it. Linda ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:09:21 -0600 (CST) From: JP Poulin Subject: United RFC? Is this possible? I doubt it. The NFA? Forget it as long as Delusional Dave and Jimmy the Jeep are there. I'm not convinced that it'll work. RFC Ottawa attempt failed despite the efforts. Ask the question why? In it is the answer. I'll keep supporting my provincial club and OFAH for now until I see otherwise. I still see bitterness from the west against the east and every little org clamouring for the prize. Pathetic, but reality. We really are not organized and don't know if it will ever happen in Canada. As to those courageous folk attempting to get arrested. Hey, the government knows what you want, they won't give it to you. Good luck though. The government may screw up yet, but don't count on them coming up short. They'll smooth it over like every other fiasco and the Cdn people will get over it as before with no repercussions. Do I sound pessimistic? You bet I do and for good reason. Give me another reason besides the same old bullshit. JP Poulin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:11:10 -0600 (CST) From: The Jordan's Subject: Reference the RFC, Ottawa office. As I have said, I am assisting an anonymous person with a survey. This person must remain anonymous for political reasons. Thanks to yesterday's posting by me, I have now received more replies (5 more bringing the total to 37). Many thanks to those who have taken the time. I will be posting more on the results later, but still seek to get a much wider response. In regards to the RFC Ottaw office, my anonymous friend has the following message (below) to pass on. I would also like to add, should anyone wish to ask specific questions of my friend, please send them to me at freefall7@shaw.ca and I will forward them. Anyone doing so will either receive a direct response from my friend, or one forwarded by me. Please also advise me if you wish "your" email and/or name divulged to my friend or if you also wish to remain anonymous. As I have previously stated - the survey responses are being tabulated "without" identifying information. The identifying information remains with me only and would never be divulged without your permission. Also - should anyone else like to assist by taking a moment to reply to the questions, you can also email me for a list of the five questions. Linda - -----Begin message------ Linda, post this, copy this, do as you want to with it. Even hit delete if you want to, hee hee hee. Linda, thank you once again, I had not heard about the effort to open an office near Ottawa. Good idea, to have a voice close to whatever, and talk to whomever. I am saddened to learn the venture failed. The next folly to be undertaking is, somebody will try ot hire a lobbyist. Waste of more money and effort. But, the distraction will keep some busy, and allow more time for the Firearms Act to settle in with non firearms owners, it will be a fait accomnpli. Really, it had little chance of starting up, and remaining open, due to funding, or the lack thereof. Funding would dry up. Why do I seem so certain of that? No immediate indication of success in this "everything now" attitude we live in, and the misunderstanding of any feedback given to supporters. "Why pay for dinner for Mr. XXX and his wife, can't you talk in an office"? Canada is, geographically, a huge country (telling us something we already know?) so spread out that today, even with the Internet, many are isolated, left out, not part off. My experience "out west" indicated there is very little understanding of the BS associated with Ottawa, and politics itself, and less tolerance with it, the "system". During the question and answer period I always insist on having after a talk on how Ottawa and our political lobby system "works", I experienced that frustration each and every time, in the frustration of the people who did ask questions, and the content of the questions. What then can we do? It would be easy for me to sit back and criticize the efforts of others. I refuse to do that. Every effort helps, but, each one not started or started and later fails, does not get off the ground, plays into the hands of the anti gun, anti hunting, anti shooting lobby. The survey you have undertaken has become even more important with this latest non starter, the Ottawa office. Five questions, maybe should have been more, but why? From the beginning of the argument, nobody on our side could answer "where did the concept for long gun registry originate" and "who put the first proposals for the legislation on paper" for "the first presentation to cabinet". These things do not happen in a vacuum, a person actually does it. The lack of co-ordination, maybe based on mistrust, showed when we are asked face to face "what changes do we want", and "what is our bottom line" and the critical one, "what can you offer, politically, in return". I suspect some put all their faith in electing a particular party and getting the legislation rescinded. It "ain't gonna happen" Next, few saw the importance of "expanding the argument" past "we will not register our guns". Why not? Why NOT register our guns? We have some information to share. By working inside the system, quietly, we managed to get cabinet ministers moved around, some lost their portfolios, some lost cabinet status entirely. It works. It works because we here are self supporting, do not have to answer to any "group", or support any one particular political party. Not fenced in. We have the influence to end the political aspirations of some ambitious politicians, or promote their efforts. Some call that "using connections", we call it "political influence", a more polite term. The unanswered question is "what is the bottom line" for changes to the existing legislation, and next, "quid pro quo", what will the firearms owners give in return. Will, for instance, they drop all opposition once the changes they ask for are in place, or will it be ongoing regardless of anything positive achieved? 32 responses out of the number of firearms owners suggests either deep distrust, so deep that they refuse to reply to innocuous basic questions, or lack of interest in the issue. If it is lack of interest, who are we here in the east trying to help? How many, who are they? We have taxation matters, health care issues, issues related to the investment industry, privacy issues, issues around the CRTC, all taking our time and effort. Which should get on the front burners? "The wheel that squeaks the loudest gets the grease". We await your advice. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:34:24 -0600 (CST) From: "Jim Thacker" Subject: Sorry if this offends, but I must make this suggestion May I be the first to respond to Mike Ackermann's suggestion about sending our money originally sent to the RFC to the NFA now the RFC is defunct. I strongly disagree with the idea of throwing the money away, as, in my view, that is what we would be doing sending it to the NFA at the present time. However, this is my view, and I might be wrong as much of that view is a function of what I have read here on the digest (along with my never getting a direct answer re the money I sent for the billboard campaign from the NFA). Also after the more recent posts related to the NFA I emailed the president of the Ontario chapter to ask for his view on the points made and have not heard from him. So although some of it is first hand I am willing to leave my options open as to their value, and if the NFA can convince me they are our best bet to carry on the fight I will send them my money. Which leads to my point. I did offer a suggestion a few weeks ago here in the digest when I began to wonder what was going on with the RFC given the length of time it was taking to raise the money needed (I do appreciate all their efforts and am sorry it did not pan out). That suggestion was to ask all these different groups to present their case as to why they should be the national leader. LUFA, NFA, COUFA ....... are there any other National Organizations.....I noted that Dr. Ackermann suggested that all groups other than the NFA were regional...... but he neglected to mention LUFA, which I do not think of as regional but I could be wrong. Certainly OFAH is regional and the others Dr. Ackermann mentions are unknown to me. So, why don't we contact each of these leaders and ask them to provide reasons why they should get our money ......And answer questions (that are asked in a gentleman's tone) from digest readers. I think this would help us understand the various groups and what they can do for us..... Of course the real answer is to ask them to all get together and become one voice but that is not going to happen. So what about this idea of a forum where they all get some time (space) to present themselves, and we get to quizz them. The main point in all this is to allow these National organizations an opportunity to vie for our money........ justify why we should support them. We might all learn a lot from the various groups regarding what they are doing and how they could further our cause. It of course would be nice if that could happen in a gentleman's forum with the sniping omitted........... James W. Thacker, Ph.D. Professor Odette School of Business Windsor, Ontario N9C 3P4 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:34:55 -0600 (CST) From: B Farion Subject: Re: NFA >I'm now ready to read your thoughts (and flames). > >M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) Disagree. Not while Hinter and DAT are still in! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:35:45 -0600 (CST) From: Robert LaCasse Subject: Re: REVIEW - Innocents Betrayed As for the National ID Card, it reeks of a makeover of the jewish POW serial numbers. They could have everybody tattooed with a 666 product number, but that would be too boorish and obvious! What Fu****g reason does this dumb card signify other than for mass herding and eventual satellite locating purposes. The minister of propaganda will no doubt work on the lost and found children benefits, and the masses will be temporally relieved as to the "caring efficiency" of the Gov't in power! Cards heh well I lost my wallet and my ID Card was in it officer, so I don't exist right? Since I don't exist, I don't wanna be bothered by you, unless U wanna arrest a non-existing non strawman persona! I wonder how that scenario would go down?....I know, I know, get locked into the rats maze jail until some paper pusher figures out what to do with me, according to Statute ????? section (1)c of the Charter of Rights which does not exist. The only Charter of Right we have is the Section (8) in courts, and even that is not seriously considered, luckily there are some rational Judges left for that sake, otherwise the legal firearm owner matter would be a new biblical sin. The Smoking Man ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:18:04 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Subject: I'm With Dr. Mike: Give the NFA The Money! Michael Ackermann wrote: > In a similar vein we too must put aside our petty differences and egos Disappearing money and donations, illegal salaries, unsupported expense claims, censorship, violations of the most fundamental of democratic principles, etc are not "petty differences" Mike. Most people think having their right to freedom of speech and right to vote being arbitrarily taken away is pretty important. > Like it or not, the NFA remains as Canada's only truly national, > politically active RFC lobby organization. Before you flame me, I have Devious Dave Tomlinson's claims to the contrary, the NFA is not national and it certainly isn't politically active nationally. Some of the provinces have nobody in the way of an organizational structure, some have nothing but a contact person, and the Territories are utterly unrepresented. Then there are provinces like Alberta, where practically every officer has resigned in protest and the "provincial president" is Jim Hinter's newest lapdog, Randy Coombes. Their "political activity" consists of two oligarchs who are no different than the political whores they aspire to be themselves. > I donated some $$ to RFC Ottawa, and I would ask the organizers to send > the unused portion of my donation to the NFA. Perhaps this would be a > good place to put all the donated $$? Such a transfer would be in > keeping with commonly accepted practices when a not-for-profit club > faces dissolution. It would also be MUCH simpler and less expensive than > trying to get every dime back to every donor. > > It is time to put aside our past grievances and look to the future. It > is time to unite against the Lieberals and the anti's. It is time to > refuse to allow them to divide and conquer. I'm with Mike. Let's give all the money to the NFA! IF... If Pinocchio Jim Hinter and Devious Dave Tomlinson also buy into the "let's unite" concept that Mike suggests... That means it gets done just like the PC's and the Alliance merger that Mike referred to. That means the membership of ALL organizations get thrown into one pot; that includes the NFA. That means Pinocchio Jim and Devious Dave became just another person with one vote, able to run for a position in the new organization if they think they can find the support. If they want to become president or "Legal Chair", they will have to run for it and get the votes. That means whatever money the NFA troika hasn't pissed away on hunting trips, jeeps, illegal salaries, unsupported expense claims, etc goes in the pot along with everybody else's as well. That means an end to Pinocchio Jim's salary, the end of the Jeep, and the end of Devious Dave's "expense accounts". So Mike, you go ahead and get in touch with the Oligarchs and ask them if they want the money. My guess is they'll slobber and say "Send Money!". But then tell them they'll have to step aside and have to fight for their jobs by way of election (a real election, not a rigged one) within the merged organization. My guess is that they'll then tell you to piss off. They do want all the money they can get their hands on. They don't want a merger into one national organization unless it comes with an ironclad guarantee that they get to run it, the censorship stays, and they are free of scrutiny or being subjected to democratically run elections. Just as a reminder to Mike and the others out there. There have been several efforts in the recent past to merge into a single force with one battle plan to fight firearms legislation. Each time, it was scuttled by people who attended - sometimes without even being invited - with the express purpose of sabotaging any and all efforts to achieve this union. The people responsible for sabotaging efforts to "unite against the Lieberals and the anti's" as Mike put it were none other than Devious Dave and Pinocchio Jim. Those events have been detailed here in the past by the activists who were there, so I won't bother to repost the narratives of those who watched it happen. Given that, and the NFA tyrants past history, it seems to me that any money turned over to the NFA will do absolutely nothing about uniting all firearms owners, but will instead disappear into the magical pockets of Jim Hinter and Devious Dave - magical because anything that falls into the hands of those two just "disappears"... Anyway Mike, no flames, and I wish you luck trying to talk Hinter and Tomlinson into abandoning their positions and NFA chequebooks to join a "unite the movement" effort. BTW... I thought that title might grab everybody's attention... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:19:11 -0600 (CST) From: "BOB LICKACZ" Subject: NFA CREDIBILITY MIKE ACKERMAN SAID: Subject: RE: Sorry if this offends, but I must make this suggestion Mike, While I agree in principle with what you're saying, and though I respect your words as a rule, the NFA is NOT the organization to get behind -- at least until this Hinter/Lowe cloud is settled. I'd like to be able to give the nod to CILA/CSSA, but I fear that this has its problems as well. They certainly don't seem to have stepped into the breach -- at least in any national sense, though CILA does tell us that they are doing a wonderful job (I will be in attendance at the Stick to Your Guns banquet tomorrow evening in Toronto to see just how wonderful they are -- vs how wonderful they TELL us that they are). Given that we cannot agree on an existing organization, and no-one is prepared to support a new one (eg: RFC), I contend that we work quietly on a "message" to sell to a left centrist (sic Canadian) type government, and the Canadian voters. The best message, IMHO is a draft set of legislation which all shooting organizations can/MUST endorse to replace the current Firearms Act -- which recognizes the rights of sports shooters, and based upon several fundamental principles: Efficacy Efficiency Fairness The "no-gun-control-at-all" message is a non-starter. It gets us no-where. So where can I get an asbestos suit? And so the flames continue ... Best always, Rob Sciuk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:22:30 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Cabbie tells court of police officer's death threats http://www.canada.com/vancouver/story.asp?id=38F9DB4D-E5C1-433A-B2C0-9930BCE93200 Cabbie tells court of police officer's death threats A taxi driver testifies his turban was torn off and he was punched repeatedly as he tried to call 911 and ask for help Kim Pemberton Vancouver Sun Friday, October 17, 2003 The alleged assault victim of an off-duty Vancouver police officer testified Thursday that the man who attacked him threatened to kill him, struck him six times in the head, and yelled racial slurs at him while he was a passenger in his cab. Bonny's Taxi driver Kulvinder Singh Parhar testified through a Punjabi interpreter that he was frightened and struggled to call 911 while slowly driving the taxi and trying to fend off blows. He identified his attacker in court as Constable Michael Stewart. Although he testified in Punjabi, Parhar, 38, was asked to repeat in English what Stewart told him. "He said 'I'm going to kill you'," Parhar replied, before returning to answering questions in Punjabi. "I was so afraid...." Parhar said Stewart and three other men got into his cab around 2 a.m. June 15, 2002, at the Engineers Auditorium, 4333 Ledger Ave., in Burnaby. But, he said, within minutes the men began asking him questions about his homeland and became verbally abusive. "The person in the front seat [identified later in court as Stewart] asked me whether I was a militant Sikh. He said did you blow up the Air India aircraft? So many people got killed. You come from India and then you kill people. He yelled bastard." Parhar said all three men in the back seat began yelling and he told them he would have to stop. "Then the person in the middle punched at me from the back at my turban. He got my turban off on the second punch. I stopped the car. Then the person sitting on the back seat hit something very hard at my head. I felt a very bad pain ... I told them I would call the police." Parhar said the three men in the back seat then got out of the car but Stewart refused to do so. "He punched me right here below my right eye. Then over my right eye. I turned my face and he hit me again on the forehead." Parhar said at that point he locked the car doors from the inside because he was worried the three who had gotten out would return to beat him as well. He said he began driving away. "I started to drive the car and dialled 911. I thought I had to save myself from him. This man is saying he wants to kill me and is beating me up. He punched me again but 911 was not understanding me." Two phone calls Parhar made to the 911 operator were played in court and the operator was repeatedly heard trying to question Parhar about his address. He said that while he was on the phone Stewart grabbed him by the collar and he was punched three more times in the face. He also said he was punched in the chest but couldn't recall how many times. "I was driving the car and I was trying to protect myself. I was pushing him as well....They [the punches] were pretty forceful. I don't know how much force was used but they did hurt me." He said at one point Stewart wrestled the phone away from him and it disconnected. Parhar said he was able to retrieve it and tried once again to call 911. © Copyright 2003 Vancouver Sun ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #591 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) If you find this service valuable, please consider making a tax-deductible donation to the freenet we use: Saskatoon Free-Net Assoc., P.O. Box 1342, Saskatoon SK S7K 3N9 Phone: (306) 382-7070 Home page: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/ These e-mail digests are free to everyone, and are made possible by the efforts of countless volunteers. Permission is granted to copy and distribute this digest as long as it not altered in any way.