From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #594 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Saturday, October 18 2003 Volume 06 : Number 594 In this issue: Re: NFA No Way Pammy... Re: Must be repealed totally. (no subject) Re: either dig and do or stop whining Re: Response to Mike Ackermann - National gun group. Sheilah Baby on the National on CBC Hunters pay bulk of funds for protection of wildlife, habitat Response to Rick Lowe - National gun group. Editorial: A national ID card is a bad solution in search of a problem Editorial: Rocky application of conflict rules Column: BEING ON NRA BLACKLIST A BADGE OF HONOUR ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:09:30 -0600 (CST) From: Don Webb Subject: Re: NFA No Way The miscreants taking up space in the NFA office are like a couple of side-winders lurking in the grass with a feeding frenzy for NFA funds and continue to disobey court orders. To even think of sending more money to these unscrupulous individuals would add insult to injury. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:11:03 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Subject: Pammy... Pamela clucks > > http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2003/10/17/228166.html > > VAUGHAN -- Former Baywatch babe Pamela Anderson is taking on KFC Canada's parent "Babe"... Christ, there's so much plastic and silicon in that wench that she's only about one step above a blowup doll. come to think of it... neither one has a brain. > Anderson joined Paul McCartney in an international campaign against KFC by the > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Anderson accused KFC of scalding > live birds and using crippling drugs. Why is it that because somebody has silicon tits or has a decent singing voice, it is presumed that they also have an intellect to go with it? Perhaps the fact that people automatically hang on the every word of celebrities is more a comment on how stupid their fans are than on how stupid the celebrity themselves might be. Anyway, at the risk of being accused of being disloyal towards Ms. Anderson, my fellow British Columbian ( a reluctant admission on my part), this has to be the definitive sight covering her intellect: http://www.superpam.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:11:20 -0600 (CST) From: "earth2inc" Subject: Re: Must be repealed totally. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Jordan's" To: Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 9:22 PM Subject: Must be repealed totally. > > I "know" that it is not koshir really to forward mail from other people, > but this is yet another piece that my anonymous 'friend' wrote prior to > receiving any of the survey replies. I think many of you will find it of > interest. It brings up points many of us are already aware of as well as > some many of you may not have thought of. As usual, I do have permission > from the writer to post where I will according to my own judgement. Again > - if you want to know more - email me and I will forward your messages to > my friend, who may give you a direct reply. > Linda Dear Linda, Will your mystery writer please sign in? "The power of the prose shall be dictated in proprtion to the power of the author" I've spoken these same words over the years to family, friends and fellow travellers ad nauseum to little avail for I am but a common man...........Now if I had been a cabinet minister........ I remain, Yours truly Peter Wilson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 09:03:35 -0400 From: Bruce Mills Subject: (no subject) From: awpaob@telus.net Subject: A Reminder of NFA "Attitude" Received from Al Dorans. in January 2003 in answer to some questions I had asked. RFC Ottawa/FED UP Canada Protecting Canadian Freedoms ................................ Dear Folks, January 11, 2003 I commend you for your determination in seeking the truth. In that vein, I thought you should be aware of the following incident which you are free to post. "At the first Canadian Alliance Convention in Ottawa, February 1998 or 1999, a special group of 8 firearms owners from the RFC convened at a large round table to discus a proposed policy statement for the Canadian Alliance on the firearms issue. Those present included: Linda Toews, Jim Hinter, Ted Morton, Dale Blue, Al Dorans, Dave Tomlinson, Tom Zinck and one other. A prepared statement, written ostensibly by Dave Tomlinson and Jim Hinter, proposed that the present C-68/FA would be scrapped and replaced with "The Practical Firearms Control System." Dale Blue took exception to the licensing provisions of both Bill C-68/FA and the Practical Firearms Control System. Dale felt that gun owners should not be required to license their private property which they use responsibly. Al Dorans suggested that the phrase "the practical firearms control system" should be replaced with a more open "a practical firearms control system" that would include better and unforeseen ideas from all sides. This caused a lively debate. Linda Toews acted as a conciliator to try and blend these ideas together. Al Dorans acknowledged that the PFCS could make a good starting point to build new replacement firearms legislation. Thereupon Dave Tomlison stated that the PFCS is like a finely tuned automobile engine, not to be soiled or tampered with by unknowing bureaucratic hands. Each word in the PFCS had been carefully selected. Removing any part would throw the entire PFCS engine out of balance and synchronization. Thus it had to be accepted unchanged. Al Dorans commented that if Dave Tomlinson thought the government would accept the document without any changes, he was dreaming. Therepon Jim Hinter stood up with several copies and spoke about "The Practical", as if it were the Holy Bible. Jim angrily sailed a spinning copy of "The Practical" through the air, landing it across the table in front of Dale Blue. Jim Hinter repeated this petulant and insulting pattern, spinning another copy of "The Practical" through the air, landing it in front of Al Dorans. In defiance, Dale Blue took his copy and spun it right back at Jim Hinter, landing it where Jim had been sitting. In defiance, Al Dorans took his copy and slammed a trump on top of Dale Blue's copy. Jim Hinter was furious and proceeded to storm out of the meeting. He paused to turn and taunt sarcastically, "Well, it doesn't matter what you think. I already have enough votes to win." At that point, Ted Morton summarized the meeting: "Jim, with an attitude like yours, you are going nowhere." So ended the meeting. It was crystal clear that the NFA was using this occasion to try and control the implementation of any new gun laws, to the NFA's financial advantage." Hope this helps, Al "FREEDOM" For those who Fought, Bled and Died For It " FREEDOM " has a FLAVOR THE PROTECTED will Never Know or Savor. Anonymous ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 06:59:14 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Subject: Re: either dig and do or stop whining "ross" > I have asked repeatedly on the digest that if anyone knows the jurisdiction > where these supposed court orders were issued for the NFA to provide an > audit and or open the books, that I would delve into it and try to find if > this has been complied with, and if not, what the coiurts are prepared to do > about it. > So far a few e-maisl not really saying much except bitching about the NFA. > So we either fix the problem or we stop bitching and whining about it. Well aside from the fact that copies of the court orders were on Gord Hitchen's website for about a year - which I guess you missed while repeatedly asking - if you ask Gord nicely he just might shoot you copies. At the moment, his website is undergoing reconstruction. Or, as an advocate of digging, the orders were issued in Calgary. To quote your subject line "either dig and do or stop whining". > If they are in contermpt of a court order, judges dont like that, they have > remedies to gain compliance. if there is no court order, then all the > jawing in the world will not change the NFA. Indeed. Once you get copies of the orders, spend $10 on a lawyer through the lawyer referral service and get the fine details on what it is going to take to enforce those orders. If you talk nicely to Richard Fritze (and I'm not volunteering him) just maybe he will take some time to explain it to you for free. Been there, done that. > If anyone has copies of these orders, pass them on, I will take a kick at > the cat. If no one has anything, just say so and cut the drivel about the > evil NFA people...it has taken up too much space in this digest already, > and more so now that I end up writting this. > > Be part of the solution, or part of the problem I have news for you. First, there are more than a few people here reading this digest that have already put a lot of their own time and money into trying and get the NFA's legal issues sorted out - long before you ever started chirping. Feel free to join the crowd and spend your own money, but don't assume you're the first. Second, the only reason Hinter and Tomlinson get away with this and continue to get away with this is because most people paying dues to keep them in the style they have become accustomed to don't have a clue what is going on. Obediently shutting up about this is the the only thing they need to guarantee they can go on doing what they're doing indefinitely. And I can assure you of the same thing that we assured Pinocchio Jim and Devious Dave of: it isn't going to go away until they go away. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 07:00:04 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Subject: Re: Response to Mike Ackermann - National gun group. Fred Hoenisch wrote: > BCWF - insurance and provides wildlife conservation support information As a member of the BCWF, you should be aware that part of the BCWF's mission statement is to "...promote and defend the rights of all anglers, hunters, and recreational shooters". As a BCWF member, why would you not expect them to carry out the promotion and defense of the rights of hunters and recreational shooters, rather than just expecting them to provide insurance and conservation support information? Wouldn't you expect them to be in the thick of the battle, and fighting just as hard for firearms issues as for fish and wildlife resources? I'm a BCWF member and I do. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 07:40:17 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Sheilah Baby on the National on CBC Did anyone else catch the very lengthy "inteview" with Sheilah Copps on the CBC National "News" last night? Now, unless I'm mistaken, doesn't the CBC fall under Copps' portfolio as Minister of Heritage? Wouldn't that be a conflict of interest, considering she is also in the running for the Liberal leadership - not to mention all the scandals she's been involved with lately? Smelled like a new coat of whitewash to me. Something sure is rotten in the State of Denmark! Yours in Liberty, Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:31:15 -0600 (CST) From: paul chicoine Subject: Hunters pay bulk of funds for protection of wildlife, habitat gulp! I just adjusted my glasses and looked down at the keyboard. I've hairy knuckles too. **** http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/letters/story.asp?id=8079532C - -77E3-42B1-9DC6-F4AD809D7BC8 LETTERS TO THE EDITOR Hunters pay bulk of funds for protection of wildlife, habitat The Gazette Saturday, October 18, 2003 As I drag my hairy knuckles across the floor and up toward my computer keyboard, I suddenly experience a feeling so distant and primal it shocks me to my very core. It feels like a lightning bolt, emanating from the deep recesses of my R-Complex brain, has just struck the upper reaches of my consciousness. Could it be David Bertrand's Oct. 11 letter, "Hunt one another, leave animals alone," was the catalyst for the epiphany my primitive, depraved soul secretively crave? Not a chance! Actually, it was a sudden attack of indigestion that no doubt was brought on by the tired clichés constantly being regurgitated in the media by Bertrand and his ilk. I am a proud and responsible hunter who thoroughly enjoys nature and its bounty. In fact, I recently returned from an annual moose bowhunting trip with my cousins. (I assure you, there was no banjo playing or genitalia-measuring during the entire hunt.) We were successful once again, and my kids and I will be eating moose burgers for the next year (my wife is a vegetarian who fully supports my passion for hunting). Sorry to dispel the myth about hunters being booze-swilling, uneducated toothless yahoos. Notwithstanding all of that Bambi-inspired drivel, the hard facts anti-hunters will never admit to is hunters contribute the lion's share of the funds necessary to preserve habitat, enforce game laws and protect wildlife. If an anti-hunter contributes financially as much as I do to protect wildlife and if he or she is a pure vegan, I will listen attentively to his or her point of view. I will then defend my position with vigour from evolutionary, environmental and moral points of view. Social ranking within our species has been, and always will be, broken down into three categories: Hunters, gatherers and whiners. I know what I am; what are Bertrand and those who share his opinion? Sebastian Bresciani Pointe Claire © Copyright 2003 Montreal Gazette ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:31:59 -0600 (CST) From: Fred Hoenisch Subject: Response to Rick Lowe - National gun group. Rick - your post suggests you missed the point I was aiming for. I believe ALL the groups I listed are active in "promoting and defending the rights of all anglers,...". If you disagree, tell me which ones. I didn't have time (or interest) to write down every little thought and support aspect for each group - I stuck to generalisations. The point I tried to make is that each group offers something a little different that appeals to me. Yes it might be *nice* if there was one group that could do it all - but there isn't. I was trying to offer an answer to the seemingly regularly asked question: "Why do we (in the RFC) have so many groups?" This seems to be the *scapegoat* for why we aren't "united" - and I disagree with that sentiment. I don't know what groups you are actively involved with/volunteering for (this is not intended as a challenge), but the reality I keep seeing is that each group usually has a very small number of really hard workers (ie. the folks that everyone calls upon to do/organise/coordinate pretty much everything). It would take many many more volunteers before we could even begin to see expansion under each group. Fred in Victoria. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:04:02 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Editorial: A national ID card is a bad solution in search of a problem PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 2003.10.18 EDITION: Final SECTION: Editorial PAGE: B6 SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= No case for the card: A national ID card is a bad solution in search of a problem - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= Citizenship and Immigration Minister Denis Coderre has toned down his promotion of a national identity card following last week's release of a House of Commons committee report questioning the need for such a card and warning that it could cost billions to set up and administer. This suggests Mr. Coderre is open to reasoned argument on the subject, which is much needed, given the implications of imposing such a policy on Canadians. The minister has yet to answer a fundamental question for even considering making Canadians carry national ID cards: What is the problem to which the cards are the solution? Even though Mr. Coderre likes to point to other countries that impose a national ID card on their citizens, the very notion that such cards are necessary runs counter to the democratic spirit. The most fundamental political relationship is that between the individual and the state. This relationship remains healthy -- and freedom and order are ensured - -- only when there is mutual trust on both sides, when citizens trust the state to look out for their best interests, while the state trusts citizens to act responsibly in the exercise of freedom. The standing committee on citizenship and immigration seems to have exactly this concern in mind in its 68-page study, A National Identity Card for Canada? In considering the ostensible purposes of a national ID card, the committee looks at the practices of other countries, the potential abuses of a national ID system and even the possible psychological consequences. While the committee doesn't reject the ID card outright, it warns that such a significant policy "could affect the fundamental values underlying Canadian society." The report is chock-a-block with the potential problems of a national ID card. - - Would police be able to stop people on the street and demand proof of identity? For an ID card to be useful to law enforcement, it would have to be mandatory and carried at all times. Might this be a "a slippery slope leading to greater intrusions in our private lives?" - - There is always the threat of government databases being "hacked" into by outsiders or misused by the bureaucrats running the system. And let's not forget the need for a "massive bureaucracy" to administer the data. - - What about "function creep?" Would the card be required for everything from renting a car to buying groceries in the same way the social insurance number is needed for banking and employment applications? - - Criminals would have a financial incentive to counterfeit such cards. And if you lost your card, would you be a "non-entity" as far as the state's database was concerned. - - What about the potential for another gun-registry fiasco? Some estimates put the start-up costs of a national ID card system at $3 billion to $5 billion. Considering other ways that money could be spent to improve Canada's security, such as the Armed Forces, the expenditure seems unwarranted. Mr. Coderre may like to refer to other countries with national ID cards, but, as the committee noted, some were governed by totalitarian regimes when they adopted such cards. These are not models to emulate. Clearly, requiring Canadians to carry "identity papers" and altering the relationship between citizen and state is not something to be done without much deliberation. Until Mr. Coderre explains the purpose and benefit of a national ID card, his case remains weak. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:21:28 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Editorial: Rocky application of conflict rules PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 2003.10.18 EDITION: Final SECTION: Editorial PAGE: B6 SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= Rocky application of conflict rules - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= If Allan Rock went into politics to improve the quality and reputation of government, he doesn't seem to have been very successful. But it's not too late to do a better job. Mr. Rock has left a trail of policy disasters behind him, including the billion-dollar gun registry, the medical marijuana debacle and the Apotex/ Cipro fiasco. Five years ago, asked if he might be given the defence portfolio, he replied, "Heck no. If they put me in defence we'd probably end up with World War Three." All this is puzzling because Mr. Rock is intelligent, charming and was a highly successful lawyer before entering politics. Mr. Rock's latest disaster is equally hard to fathom because it is ethical rather than policy-related. First, when he was minister of Health, he accepted some favours from New Brunswick's powerful Irving family, but didn't tell federal ethics counsellor Howard Wilson until Mr. Rock became Industry minister, at which point he was told to recuse himself for a year from any discussions of matters that might affect the Irvings' extensive business interests. During that year, however, he appointed an Irving executive to a federal advisory panel on shipbuilding and took part in its inaugural session. The panel, of all things, opposed closing an idle Irving shipyard. And then Mr. Rock's department granted the shipyard $55 million to convert to other industrial uses. (Mr. Wilson, who earlier had cleared Mr. Rock of any conflict of interest, now says he didn't know about the appointment or the grant.) Mr. Rock may believe that his previous contacts with the Irving family, including a stay at their private fishing resort, won't influence the decisions he has to make as Industry minister, but that's not his judgment to make. The federal conflict-of-interest guidelines are there to prevent real, apparent or perceived conflicts of interest, and it's up to Mr. Wilson to rule on whether any such conflicts exist. Mr. Rock needs to tell Canadians what happened and when, and answer any questions fully and frankly. He also needs to explain why he didn't keep the ethics counsellor fully informed about his dealings with the Irvings and why he seems to have ignored the one-year recusal ruling. Mr. Wilson also needs to be open with Canadians. He could start by explaining how it is possible to enforce the conflict-of-interest rules when cabinet ministers keep even him in the dark about their activities. Then he can tell us what he plans to do about it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:28:52 -0600 (CST) From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: Column: BEING ON NRA BLACKLIST A BADGE OF HONOUR PUBLICATION: The London Free Press DATE: 2003.10.18 EDITION: Final SECTION: Opinion Pages PAGE: F7 BYLINE: ROBERT RIPLEY, LONDON FREELANCE WRITER London. His column appears Saturdays. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= BEING ON NRA BLACKLIST A BADGE OF HONOUR - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= The National Rifle Association has blacklisted me. Hallelujah! Though only one among many, I am thrilled to be grouped with Shania Twain, Mike Myers, k.d. lang, the Temptations and, well, the entire St. Louis Cardinals baseball team. Seems the NRA has received requests for a list of those who do and do not support "the rights of law-abiding Americans to keep and bear arms." As a service to their members, the organization's website contains a compilation of organizations, corporations, publications and celebrities deemed unfriendly. As the site suggests, these undesirables have lent their names and notoriety to anti-gun causes, speaking out for anti-gun legislation and providing a voice for anti-gun organizations. It's important to know who your enemies are, particularly if you are fighting to carry a gun and have important legislation to support the cause. Take, for instance, a bill that would protect negligent gun dealers and gun makers against lawsuits. Such a bill would offer immunity to the Bull's Eye Shooter Supply, which lost 238 guns, including the assault rifle used in all the Washington, D.C., sniper shootings and weapons tied to at least 52 other gun crimes. The other issue high on the NRA agenda is the expiration next September of the assault-weapons ban signed into law by former U.S. president Bill Clinton. The sunset provision means that it will have to be renewed by Congress and President George W. Bush. Work has begun to bury the ban. Though the NRA may want to label me "anti-gun," I am not. I admit that I've never fired a gun, and hope by the grace of God to never have to fire one. I admit that I have no interest in keeping a loaded firearm by my bed just in case. I think those who enforce our laws and protect our country ought to have guns. I'm even prepared to permit those who want to engage in the sport of killing a deer (even if the deer doesn't have a sporting chance) to own a rifle. But guns should be licensed and their owners trained. And there is absolutely no need for anyone in North American to own a semi-automatic killing machine that can put 12 bullets into you in two seconds. In Canada, the management of the National Firearms Registry has become a fiscal fiasco. Leave it to the feds to take a simple concept and lose a billion dollars -- and growing. Still, a majority of Canadians (55 per cent) believe the concept is worthwhile and workable. The NRA would likely consider me a lunatic, so that makes me the enemy. I'm not expecting a call from Michael Moore, but I'm thrilled to join an army trying to save a few lives by keeping guns out of the hands of kids and radicals. If you'd like to join the honour roll of NRA reprobates, go to www.nrablacklist.com and follow the instructions. You can donate to the cause if so inclined. Enlist in the blacklist today. - ------------------------------------------------ August 4, 2003 - JMCK Poll: 39% of Canadians say gun registry should be continued http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/JMCKPolling-FirearmsActPoll- August202003.pdf December 13, 2002 - Ipsos-Reid Poll: 43% of Canadians say gun registry should be continued http://www.ipsos-reid.com/media/dsp_displaypr_cdn.cfm?id_to_view=1692 ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #594 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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