From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #774 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Saturday, December 27 2003 Volume 06 : Number 774 In this issue: Firearms offences more than double since Dunblane Re: Cop's gun goes off; suspect injured National Liberal Registry. RE: National Liberal Registry. Read this. The home gunsmith. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:16:43 -0600 (CST) From: "jim davies" Subject: Firearms offences more than double since Dunblane Firearms offences more than double since Dunblane By David Derbyshire, Science Correspondent (Filed: 27/12/2003) Gun crime has more than doubled since 1996, the year of the Dunblane massacre, according to the latest Home Office statistics. mobile.telegraph Last year it reached its highest ever level with more than 10,000 recorded offences involving firearms. In the year to April, there were 10,250 gun crimes - a rise of three per cent on 2001-02. Guns killed 80 people and injured around 1,700. In around two thirds of the incidents they were used to threaten victims. Although gun crime is usually confined to members of gangs, bystanders and victims of robberies are also involved. A year ago two teenagers died in a hail of bullets while celebrating New Year at a party in a hairdresser's salon in Birmingham. Five men have been charged with the murder of Charlene Ellis, 18, and Letisha Shakespeare, 17. In September, a Nottingham jeweller, Victor Bates, 64, watched as his wife Marian, 64, was shot in their family-run shop. In November, Graham Fisher, 60, and his wife Carol, 53, were shot dead in their isolated bungalow at Winnard's Perch, near Wadebridge, Cornwall. The couple ran a garage. Earlier this month, a 15-year-old girl and a woman of 25 were shot in Leeds within hours of each other. Police said the girl was walking along a road when three youths approached her. A red car pulled up at the same time and she was shot in the leg from the car with a handgun. Soon afterwards, a woman of 25 was attacked, pushed into a car and then shot in the leg. Shortly after the New Year Birmingham shootings, the Government announced a range of measures. They included a ban on the carrying of replica guns and air weapons in public. There will also be a five-year prison sentence for carrying a firearm, although judges may not always impose it. © Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2003. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 12:15:33 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Subject: Re: Cop's gun goes off; suspect injured Bob wrote: >> 2 Days training, certainly does not qualify anybody, especially >> the Police to carry a prohibited weapon.......and that's what happens! That two days is conversion training of course, not the total amount of weapons training they received while going through recruit training. If that's not enough, and as you along with a few others like to equate civilian training with police training, then how many days training would you suggest each time police are issued a new firearm? Of course, to keep everything nice and equal, every citizen should also be required to undergo the same amount of "conversion training" each time they acquire a new kind of firearm, right? So... own five or six different kinds of handguns, then you should have at least two days of conversion training on each, right? After all, ordinary citizens are no different than police, who are recruited from the general population of the country. Just for general interest, most police forces now require new recruits to show up with a PAL in their pocket, showing they have successfully completed Canada's firearms safety course. >> The P99 Quick Action Semi-Automatic type has been used by undercover >> coverts in Canada since 1969, usually as an paddle ankle holster for >> the "skirts" and their bell bottoms at the time! B.S. First, the "type" hasn't been around that long. Second, name me one police force outside of the CF MP's that were carrying pistols rather than revolvers back in the 60's. Third, the almost universal issue to plainclothes officers who were working drugs, GIS, or whatever was a snub nosed S&W K frame. Fourth, while I'm sure some did, I have never seen a plainclothes guy who carried in an ankle holster. Finally, not only are ankle holsters uncomfortable as hell and used by few, but a paddle holster stuck into your sock won't be with you long. >> Walther is a strange experience in double action semi-auto that is >> hard to accept as useful in a diehard world of single action semi auto >> Glock/Colt45/RugerMKII, too many useless parts, just another world of >> "Jap Crap". The discussion of single vs double action pistols aside, the Glock's used by police are double action and I'm not aware that Glock even makes a single action. And I doubt any police force has ever carried a Ruger MkII. While I never owned a Walther (I had a Pardini), their resale value pretty much puts your comments about "Jap Crap" into context. >> The Walther GSP/KSP/OSP Sports pistols are a night mare of fine tuning, >> and are all 5 shot olympic, with the dreaded "Duel Action" and red light >> to show the bolt open...etc.....and pay for a name big time to boot. First, these are purpose built pistols for Olympic shooting, not police service. Second, they are single action (not surprising when considering their trigger pulls can be as light as in the 100 - 200 gram range; about 3 ounces). And finally, their popularity in Olympic style competition pretty much shows how bad their reputation is. Of course, they are not intended to be mucked about with by idiots, and such people might indeed later report that owning such a pistol is a "nightmare". >> Police get things like children get an allowance, they also expect all >> sorts of Royal Benefits, including the equipment they get should work >> by itself. "Royal Benefits"????? >> They don't dick around with their firearm enough to validate their >> capacity to carry it, let alone pull it for an insignificant use! I don't want ANYBODY "dicking around" with firearms - there are more than enough Jim Hinter's out there blowing holes through the neighbor's walls. We are fortunate enough that those "dicking around" with their firearms usually don't report the fact they just blew a hole through their living room floor to police. It wouldn't look good for the rest of us. >> What they need is significant trainning in a Black Badge Level at least. The last thing police need training in is handgun gamesmanship. I'm sure there have been several shootings in Canada involving civilians trained to "Black Badge Level". The only one I know of ended up with the "black badge" individual shot in the chest and in critical condition in hospital, where he nearly didn't survive. True, he killed his assailant in a hail of gunfire after giving him the first shot at almost point blank range, but if he hadn't been acting in IPSC type fashion, he probably wouldn't have gotten shot in the first place. Many police forces should indeed have a lot more firearms training - and a lot more training on many other things. They would certainly like to have it, but their employers - your MP's, MLA's, and City Council's - refuse to pay for it. I also don't see a whole lot of taxpaying civilians screaming and yelling demands that their taxes be raised to pay for this additional training. Are you constantly writing letters to city council demanding that they raise your taxes and use the money for increased firearms training for your police force, Bob? >> Hell can't these guys dry fire practice at home, or do they expect money >> for that too. No they can't - most forces obligate their members to leave their handguns at the detachment office between their shifts. Furthermore, dry firing doesn't address proper use mechanics - I don't want somebody reinforcing unsafe practices by repeating the same mistake over and over again by themselves. >> They all have all the easy access indoor/outdoor target ranges for >> themselves, yet they think they know it all... Ah, like you, you mean? When I was down in the Lower Mainland, Burnaby had an indoor range - but it was permanently closed and never allowed to be used. None of the remainder of the Big Five had indoor ranges at that time (70's and early 80's). North Vancouver shot on a range not much different than a gravel pit up in the watershed, for which one had to have the key to the gate. And of course, into the 80's the Force was giving all of two boxes of ammo a year to each member - 60 rounds of which were required for qualification. Now look at all the small little detachments scattered all throughout Canada. The Kimberley detachment shoots at our range, and based on the constraints placed on us by the landowner, it has neither barricades nor target stands - I have no idea how they conduct their qualification days. And within a day or so I am going to have to tell them they don't even have our range anymore, as the landowner has just cancelled our tenancy. So neither us nor the police have a place for any kind of handgun/restricted firearm shooting as of January 1st. In short, the "easy access to target ranges" claim amounts to standup comedy when parroted to most police in Canada. >> I have seen these guys draw and shoot, most are "dead" in the first >> second, and I beat them from Canada to China..in 1985 with a Ruger >> MKII, which is the last type of gun construction to use in a quick >> draw and shoot event! Easy to chirp and make claims like that - except real life isn't a "quick draw and shoot event"... as the IPSC shooter in Burnaby found out the hard way outside of his gun shop. I also can't help but note that police these days are coming out the winners in the vast majority of confrontations where gunfire is exchanged, so as inadequate as the opportunities for practice are for police, it can't be all that bad. Finally, it would be most entertaining to hear of your "quick draw and shoot event" experiences with police over in China! >> So in interest of Public Safety, "invoked by my natural citizens status" >> I am placing all packing Cops , under arrest under section 28 and >> unlawful posession of a firearm. >:) >> >> Yours in Justice Where'd you get that stuff you're smoking, anyways? I believe that negligent discharges should be dealt with as negligent discharges, irregardless of whether they are committed by police or citizens. An "accidental discharge" is a very rare beast indeed and generally involves a mechanical failure, and most discharges should not be dismissed as "accidental". But I also believe in keeping things in perspective and not wrapping issues in personal BS and biases. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:46:19 -0600 (CST) From: KELLY VENAAS Subject: National Liberal Registry. Anyone interested in starting a National Liberal Registry? It could be a website that lists anyone or any business that supports the Liberal Party and their demented way of thinking. That way Joe Public could use it to decide where his hard earned dollars are spent and hit Liberals where they will feel it and care about it the most, their wallet. It could be a way to slowly reverse the damage done by these parasites over the last decade by slowly taking away our freedom little by little. The only way to starve a bloodsucker is by cutting off it's blood supply. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:00:19 -0600 (CST) From: "Jim Pook" Subject: RE: National Liberal Registry. I like it! Register Liberals - Not Guns! Jim Pook Jim's Fishing Charters Box 326 Tahsis, BC V0P 1X0 www.jimsfishing.com jim@tahsisbc.com 1(888) 617-FISH (3474) Toll Free (250) 934-7665 Local ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:05:53 -0600 (CST) From: David M Subject: Read this. The home gunsmith. Take a read of this and tell me if it does not make you positively seethe with indignation. That the once beloved country of my birth can treat a "clean living individual with high morals" in this manner for speaking his mind is absolutely appalling in my opinion. How low has Britain sunk!? DM http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/readthis.html HOW THE BRITISH AUTHORITIES PERSECUTE GUN OWNERS... The author of "Expedient Homemade Firearms" built a machine gun in the course of writing the book. For his pains he was sentenced to four years imprisonment. Although the judge said he accepted there was no criminal intent in his constructing the weapon, he would make an example of him as a warning to others. In prison his original low security classification was upgraded two levels in the space of a very few weeks, and throughout his incarceration he was vilified by the authorities who of course "new better" than professionally qualified people. They regarded him as a potential psycopath because of his refusal to toe the line and agree with the official views on gun ownership. Read on to see what was written about a man whom three psychiatrists viewed as "normal"... - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE PAROLE BOARD'S REPORT; CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT 1991. PAROLE NOTIFICATION. "A panel of the parole board considered your application (for parole) on 24th. March 2000 and found you not suitable for early release on licence. The panel gave the following reasons. Mr.Luty was convicted of the manufacture of a firearm and possession of ammunition (6 rounds!)………. there is little evidence to indicate that Mr.Luty has fully addressed the causes and consequences of the offences(1) and although he states he accepts responsibility, still describes the crimes as "an innocent project". Mr.Luty continues to maintain very strong views about UK gun laws to which he is opposed. Report writers identify considerable apprehension over his lack of insight and concern over the wider implications of his offences and his continuing views over gun ownership and use (2) Given the gravity of the offences and the importance of the outstanding areas of concern, the panel consider the risk of re-offending too high for parole to be granted. 1. Gun control! 2. The citizen is no longer entitled to a point of view if it goes against majority opinion. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE PROBATION OFFICER'S REPORT; (DESCRIBED BY A PRISON OFFICER WITH TWENTY YEARS EXPERIENCE WITHIN THE SERVICE AS "ONE OF THE MOST VINDICTIVE AND BIASED REPORTS I HAVE EVER SEEN"…………….. "The prisoner was convicted in Leeds Crown Court on 24th.April 1998 of the manufacture of a prohibited weapon……………he was sentenced to a total of four years imprisonment. Mr.Luty admitted a long term interest in guns and gun making (3) ...At the time of interview he expressed strong views about the stringent gun laws in this country and on issues related to the individual and the state. To an extent he appears to have embraced the views promulgated by much of the "Right to keep and bear arms" lobby in the United States. I understand police seized a number of publications making reference to these views ....Whilst there is no evidence to suggest Mr.Luty has established any contact with militia or other extreme groups in the United States , his apparent sympathy for their views is of ongoing concern (4) ...............of special concern , I understand Mr.Luty's brother attempted to send him an article from the internet by an organization called "Jews for the preservation of firearms ownership" (JPFO) (5). This appears to be yet another "Right to keep and bear arms" group. Since his imprisonment, Mr.Luty's mother has died and I understand his father remains chronically ill............The prisoner's attitude to the role of the state and the possession and use of firearms gives rise to serious concern. This ,taken together with...the anti-authority stance exhibited during this sentence, adds to the concern that he could represent a very great danger to members of the public in future. The fact that his mother has died since imprisonment and that he appears to have developed an embittered view of his treatment in prison may reinforce his anti-social and anti- authority attitudes, making the likelihood of grave crimes being committed in the future even more likely. (6) In all the circumstances, in my opinion, the presumption must be that he is potentially dangerous and the case must be managed accordingly. The prisoner has not shown any progress in understanding the concerns highlighted in his case and, if anything, appears even more intransigent in his views than before conviction. Therefore, in my view, he is not a suitable candidate for early release on parole. His future supervision on licence will have to be undertaken with a view to managing risk to the public as an overriding priority. F.W. Probation Officer West Yorkshire Probation Service. It appears I'm a nut! By the way, I didn't get parole! 3. It is looked upon as an offence to have an interest in firearms. 4. Is the right to keep and bear arms an "extreme view"? 5. Log on to http://www.jpfo.org/ 6. How many more warnings do gun owners need about the mentality of the anti-gun lobby? A perfect example of an "expert" covering his back. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A PRISON GOVERNOR'S "ENLIGHTENED" COMMENTS ABOUT THE AUTHOR: "The nature of your book and the views expressed in it are precisely what makes you a risk to the public. They (the views) lie at the core of why you were sent to prison in the first place. Those views are still firmly held and they make you a danger to the public." C.M.A.,Governor ON THE OTHER HAND........SOME COULD SEE THROUGH THE LIES AND MISINFORMATION......THE PRISON CHAPLAIN'S REPORT: I have known Mr.Luty since his arrival in this prison, I have spoken to him on several occasions about his offence and his personal problems, in particular the death of his mother and the illness of his father...However, my main concern is to bring to the parole board's attention Mr.Luty's ongoing bereavement problems. Eight months after his imprisonment his mother died. Although aware that she had been ill his mother's death came as a great shock. He was very close to his mother and was extremely upset by her death. His sense of loss and grief was such that he could not bring himself to attend the funeral. He admits that he has been unable to grieve properly...whilst in prison. As with so many men in the prison culture he cannot let go of his emotions and has bottled them up. His sadness cannot be released. The problem has been compounded by the serious illness of his father, who almost died in the summer of 1999. His father continues to be seriously ill and he is frightened that he will lose his father also whilst in prison. Both these events have put great strain on Mr.Luty during his sentence. Despite these pressures he has conducted himself with dignity during his sentence and has been a model prisoner. He has complied with every demand made of him and has behaved impeccably. Whilst a naturally quiet person he gets on well with staff with whom he has contact. Mr. Luty is an articulate and intelligent man...his offences have been of an 'indirect nature', i.e. they have not involved other people nor have they been used in criminal activities. I support Mr.Luty's parole application on the following grounds; 1/ He has never shown himself to be a threat to the public. 2/ He has been a well behaved inmate and has complied with all that has been asked of him whilst in prison. P.M., Prison Chaplain It is a worrying fact of modern life that those who find themselves in prison and are known to hold an "unhealthy" interest in firearms are subjected to "Psychiatric assessment". - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE PRISON PSYCHIATRIST No.1 (following a long interview). "I could find no evidence of delusions, hallucinations. There was no thought disorder and his mood was normal. His memory was good and he was of at least average intelligence, possibly of good intelligence.............In my opinion he does not suffer from any form of mental disorder (nice to know!) ...His mood was appropriate and he certainly could not be described as cold. I concluded there were no grounds for suggesting psychiatric intervention in this case" (phew!) Dr.T.K., Consultant Forensic Psychiatrist. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE PRISON PSYCHIATRIST No. 2 (following a very long interview). "The purpose of this report is to advise on Mr.Luty's mental state and to clarify the issue as to whether he suffers from a mental disorder or not (Didn't they believe no.1?) Mr.Luty denied any symptoms of depression. I found no evidence at all of mental Illness. (Hurray!) It was clear from conversation that he has strong views on a variety of matters. He presents as a clean living individual with high morals......He spoke about the injustices of recent gun laws......He believes people should be allowed to possess firearms.......OPINION:- I found no evidence of mental illness. Although Mr.Luty has strong views on a number of matters these alone do not constitute a personality disorder. (7) Mr.Luty does not suffer from a personality disorder and therefore I have no medical recommendations to make." Dr.J.I. MRC-Psych., Consultant Forensic Psychiatrist. 7. The anti-gun lobby, prison and probation service would have us believe otherwise! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE PRISON PSYCHIATRIST N0.3 (following a very, very long interview). "In my opinion Mr.Luty is not suffering from a mental disorder requiring specialist treatment. (Surely they will believe no.3?) My enquiry into this case has revealed the motive behind the offence. I have not come across any evidence to indicate that Mr.Luty is a dangerous person as he is at present" Dr.M.S.A.,MBBS,FRC.Psych., Senior lecturer in psychiatry. So entrenched is the mindset of the prison/probation services, and many other government bodies, that anyone who enters the prison system and dares to challenge this mindset can suffer the most appalling persecution. I have had first hand experience. So entrenched is the view that the gun owner is a potential mass murderer or homicidal maniac that he will suffer the indignities of intrusive psychiatric questioning in the expectation that he will "test positive"; i.e. he will be another "gun nut" caught in time. In any other field, psychiatric "assessment" will only be offered or prescribed if a mental illness is observed or demonstrated to be present. However, when we are talking about an individual with an interest in firearms , a psychiatric "assessment" is prescribed in the expectation, and in some quarter, hope, of it being required. This ludicrous situation has occurred as a direct result of the media, in whose newspapers and on whose screens the gun owner has been relegated to the level of an almost sub-human species. The probation service, whose role at one time was the welfare of an inmate and his family, will now write the most vindictive and biased reports to prevent an early release, irrespective of any humanitarian urgency which may exist, and which for almost any other offence would almost guarantee early release on parole licence. Where the prison service is involved in the assessment of an individual convicted of a non-violent offence, as in my own case, they will indulge in a game of prevarication and manipulation of the truth. The situation is totally unacceptable. It is the fundamental right of any individual to be treated in a fair and non-prejudicial manner and the right of any minority living in what we are told is a civilised society not to suffer intolerance at the hands of a "might is right" majority view. The intolerance shown to me and my minority today, may well be shown to you and your minority tomorrow. Let my experiences be a warning. It is time to wake up. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V6 #774 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:moderator@hitchen.org List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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