From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V7 #617 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Friday, December 10 2004 Volume 07 : Number 617 In this issue: Letter Jackbooters storn apartment politicqally correct description Proof that the registry can't work Firearms Center vote HOW DID YOUR MP VOTE ON FUNDING FOR THE GUN REGISTRY? Liberals pass $96 M for Firearms Centre: Vote was 191-102. Letter: Continuing gun registry is more mismanagement Letter: Sound of gunfire drowns out words Ltter: Spend money on medicine Editor: (Actually, saving lives would be worth it, but there's no Editorial: Scrapping the gun registry Letter: Continuing gun registry is more mismanagement Letter: All of Mr. Cullen's verbiage.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:57:12 -0600 (CST) From: "ross" Subject: Letter Just sent, not yet printed..have you sent your letter today MP Roy Cullen tells all Canadians the gun registry is a success. He tells All Canadians 2 million licenses have been issued and 7 million firearms registered. Well and good for Mr Cullen. However his figures show clearly that the registry has failed. There are 7 million Canadians with FAC (firearms aquisition certificates ) prior to 1995, with 16 to 21 million guns. That would mean that 5 million people decided not to climb on board the firearms act train and it also means there are between 9million and 13 million more firearms which have not been registered. No matter how many spin doctors Liberal MP Roy Cullen of her majesty Mc lellan line up, this is a collosal failure, for which every canadians will pay for in their taxes, not to mention the various provisions of the new gun laws which violate all of our charter rights. Less than one third of gun owners have signed on to the Liberal gun act C-68, and it can hardly be touted as sucessful. More so if two thirds of the firearms are still not registered, what use is the registry to the Police if two thirds of the guns are not registered or the owners licensed. Using the registry as a means to determine what house has firearms, is really flawed given that two thirds of gun owners did not get licensed and over 13 million guns were not registered. The sole purpose of the Police giving such glowing reports about the registry is to shill for the corrupt Liberal government as they play shell games with our rights and our tax dollars, just as they did with the Sponsorship scandal. But whats a few million right!? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:57:47 -0600 (CST) From: "ross" Subject: Jackbooters storn apartment "Officers from the force's tactical unit stormed the apartment around 4 p.m. They had to wait another two hours for a search warrant so the weapons could be seized. " IS there something wrong here. Where did these armed thugs get the right to storm first and get a warrant to cover their asses with later? I wonder what sort of chicanery has just taken place in that armed groups of police are permitted to storm or kick down the door of someones home without a warrant being first obtained. Perhaps they are forgetting that there is a thing called the charter of rights. But I forgot...they are not peace officers any more, they are Law Enforcement. They are the paid enforcers of the state...now it all makes sense to me. sorry about ever doubting their motives. No doubt they were concerned about higher ideals than I as a mere unwashed member of the masses is capable of understanding. I need a dose of guiltplex, so that I can go and do the right thing. I shall not criticise these stawart bastions of freedom anymore, as they are merely enforceing the laws which my enlightened leaders have seen fit to foist...i mean give to us.....ah yes...i feel calm now as the guiltplex slowly takes hold of my weak brain, and helps put things in proper perspective ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:58:16 -0600 (CST) From: "ross" Subject: politicqally correct description Halfe is described as "non-white," five-foot- 10, 166 pounds with a moustache. He has brown eyes and hair, a scar on his right wrist, a scar between his eyes and deformed right and left little fingers. NON WHITE... does that mean the fellow is black, yellow, mullato, light brown, drak brown, or just a different shade of green. What a description folks.... so politically correct that no one will be able to figure out who this dangerous person is. Of course that is perhaps why they described him in such benign terms. If the public dont see him and he commits more crimes, then the Law enforcement system has created more work for themselves. who would have thunk that this was a make work project. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:59:26 -0600 (CST) From: Barry Glasgow Subject: Proof that the registry can't work This past Tuesday, Liberal MP's Anne McLellan and Roy Cullen (along with the Coalition for Gun Control, Ottawa Police Chief Vince Bevan and some very rare editorialists at the Toronto Star) were desperately flaunting some selected yet misconstrued statistics to "prove" the effectiveness and worth of their billion dollar gun registry. Seeing as how such these are so fond of using anecdotal "evidence" to prove the need for this white elephant, I thought it both sad and ironic that a Winnipeg man should act out on the very same day to prove their foolishness. Jagjit Singh Saran killed his uncle (a father of two) in the street outside of his home. A few significant facts come out of that event. Saran had previously been arrested for various robbery and firearms offences. He was twice ordered by the court not to possess guns. He was out on bail pending a hearing on charges that he fired a shotgun at three women in July of last year. Police searched his house in October in relation to another shooting death and found nothing. He shot his uncle with a shotgun, not a handgun or AR-15. He then ended a tense stand-off with police by shooting himself in the face. So, while registry supporters proudly rattle off statistics about how the police are checking the registry to prevent domestic violence and suicide, we have a case where a known violent offender was released by the system, was court-ordered not to possess guns, had his house subsequently searched for an unrelated crime and still managed to get ahold of a shotgun, kill a family member and then shoot himself. Instead of wasting billions of dollars harrasing millions of hunters, registry supporters should be asking themselves why that money isn't being used to detain and track the 80% of murderers with proven violent criminal histories. Barry Glasgow Woodlawn, Ontario K0A 3M0 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:59:52 -0600 (CST) From: Edward Hudson Subject: Firearms Center vote On the motion to delete funding for the Firearms Center the Saskatoon StarPhoenix reported that the vote was 191 to 102 with 11 of 19 NDP suporting the Liberals. Where can we find out who vote and how ? Who did not vote ? How did Mr Gallaway vote ?? Thanks, Eduardo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:00:08 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: HOW DID YOUR MP VOTE ON FUNDING FOR THE GUN REGISTRY? December 9, 2004 - HOW DID YOUR MP VOTE ON FUNDING FOR THE GUN REGISTRY? http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/Article500.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:04:34 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: Liberals pass $96 M for Firearms Centre: Vote was 191-102. PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 2004.12.10 EDITION: Final SECTION: News PAGE: A1 / Front BYLINE: Bill Curry, with files from Andrew McIntosh SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MPs slash Clarkson's budget: $417,000 cut threatens Order of Canada ceremonies; Rideau Hall activities - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Order of Canada ceremonies may be cancelled and children's activities on the grounds of Rideau Hall could be eliminated after MPs voted late last night to trim more than $400,000 from the Governor General's budget. The Liberals were able to pass a $96-million payment to the Canadian Firearms Centre during last night's votes on government spending estimates. The vote was 191-102. But the Liberals lost in their attempt to restore the Governor General's full budget when the three opposition parties united to defeat the motion 171-120. The government motion for Privy Council Office funding faced the same fate, going down 167-124. Randy Mylek, a spokesman for Gov.-Gen. Adrienne Clarkson, said the office is now looking at delaying or eliminating several upcoming programs such as Order of Canada ceremonies and popular festivities for children on the Rideau Hall grounds during Ottawa's Winterlude festival. Madame Clarkson was also planning to take part in winter festivities at the Citadelle in Quebec City, her second official residence, but that trip is also under review as a result of the vote, which saw her fourth quarter budget by $417,000. Describing it as a "significant reduction," Mr. Mylek said the office has been planning contingencies, but no final decisions on cuts have been made. "There are a number of events given that we're already in the middle of December that may have to be modified, reduced or done otherwise if not eliminated," he said. Mr. Mylek noted that ceremonies to award Order of Canada medals occur five or six times a year for an average of 50 individuals each and involve expenses such as travel, hotels and meals for the recipients and a guest as well as the cost of the medals themselves. The two cuts had originally been made by MPs on the Commons government operations and estimates committee but Treasury Board president Reg Alcock put forward motions reversing the committee decisions. It was those government motions that were defeated. The MPs sought to reduce the Governor General's budget to $16.8 million for the year as a show of disapproval of a $5-million circumpolar tour by Madame Clarkson to Russia, Iceland and Finland. The PCO reduction was to protest the use of government money on a public opinion survey about the sponsorship program that the opposition said was clearly partisan. Mr. Alcock's parliamentary secretary, Diane Marleau, was left to defend the government's move to block the cuts earlier in the day even though she had voted with the opposition in committee to support the reduction. Ms. Marleau said she reversed her position because MPs need to be "responsible" and failed to get a clear explanation from the Governor General as to what consequences might result from the funding cut. "There is no democratic deficit. You have the right to vote but you have to be thoughtful when you vote as well because the repercussions may not be what you thought they'd be," she said. The vote to fund the Firearms Centre, which manages the controversial firearms registry, was forced by the Conservative Party's deputy leader Peter MacKay after Liberal MP Roger Gallaway withdrew his motion to oppose the payment. NDP MP Charlie Angus said he voted against the registry funding because the program is very unpopular in his northern Ontario riding. The rookie MP said he was disappointed that Mr. Gallaway backed away from his push. Mr. Gallaway did not vote on the motion last night. "I think he came forward with something that was very legitimate and people looked for him to do that and I think it doesn't matter whether you win this vote or not. I think this vote is as symbolic as the registry itself," he said. Joe Comuzzi, the Liberal minister for northern Ontario, voted in favour of the registry but said there is an understanding that a Commons committee will now review the program to try and find cost savings. "The issue hasn't gone away," he said, noting that opposition to the registry remains strong in his Thunder Bay riding. "Do we have to register long guns?" he asked. At yesterday's meeting of the Commons Justice committee, Conservative MP Gary Breitkreuz pressed RCMP Commissioner Giuliano Zaccardelli to admit that abolishing the registry would free up cash to better fund policing activities across the country. Commissioner Zaccardelli disagreed, however, pledging his support for the controversial registry which he described as "a good tool" in the fight against violent crime. Conservative justice critic Vic Toews said it appears Mr. Gallaway was threatened by the Prime Minister's Office into withdrawing his motion. "I think what this indicates more than anything is not only Roger Gallaway's refusal to stand up for what he believes in, but also that there are many within the Liberal caucus who oppose the gun registry, see it as an ineffective mechanism and the prime minister is not allowing them to speak out on this issue," he said. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:05:29 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: Letter: Continuing gun registry is more mismanagement PUBLICATION: The Windsor Star DATE: 2004.12.10 EDITION: Final SECTION: Editorial/Opinion PAGE: A7 BYLINE: Randy Grosso SOURCE: Windsor Star - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Continuing gun registry is more mismanagement - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ It's no wonder we are so highly taxed in this country. Our politicians would rather continue to dump millions into this gun-registry abyss than face the facts. The arrogant and misleading politicians continue to spew their rhetoric and flaunt their untouchable status in our face. So Joe Comartin is for the additional spending on this registry, a year after Sheila Fraser's audit (which was not fully completed because of lost paperwork) declared it a gross mismanagement of funds. Public Safety Minister Anne McLellan has just released new amendments to the gun registry, which include reducing and eliminating some fees. Her statement reads: "These amendments will help us to achieve that goal more efficiently while enabling the government to meet its commitment made in May to facilitate compliance for responsible firearm owners." Can you say spin-doctor? This is just another way of getting already financially strapped farmers and hunters to jump on board a flawed system with little or no cost. Make no mistake about it, we may not pay now but history teaches us we will pay later. England and other European countries are now seeing the effects of their gun-control laws. Dramatic increases in licensing fees have forced hunters and farmers to give up hunting or turn in their firearms while doing nothing to curb violence. A year ago, Toronto police Chief Julian Fantino came under fire for publicly stating the gun registry was not reducing crime or helping his officers. Ethnic gang crime is continuously on the rise in larger cities throughout the country. Knives have become a weapon of choice with the recent murders in Windsor and Toronto. Since when does two life sentences equal 17 years in prison? With continuous knee-jerk laws, not prosecuting criminals to the fullest and not-so-common common-sense politicians, higher taxes and useless legislation will become the norm. Randy Grosso Windsor ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:05:57 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: Letter: Sound of gunfire drowns out words PUBLICATION: Toronto Star DATE: 2004.12.10 SECTION: Letter PAGE: A31 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sound of gunfire drowns out words - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Save the gun registry Editorial, Dec. 8. I think that I heard you say, "What Gallaway and other MPs who oppose the registry seem to forget is that we are all safer because of it" but you'll have to speak louder. The sound of gunfire in the streets of Toronto is drowning you out. John Melnick, High River, Alta. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:19:58 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: Ltter: Spend money on medicine PUBLICATION: The Province DATE: 2004.12.10 EDITION: Final SECTION: Editorial PAGE: A21 BYLINE: George Ford SOURCE: Vancouver Province - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Spend money on medicine - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mandatory gun registration will not stop those who want to avoid registration. The gun registry budget could benefit taxpayers by funding new medical equipment and research. Imagine the popularity of doing what we actually want. George Ford, Abbotsford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:20:37 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: Editor: (Actually, saving lives would be worth it, but there's no PUBLICATION: The Toronto Sun DATE: 2004.12.10 EDITION: Final SECTION: Editorial/Opinion PAGE: 18 COLUMN: Letters to the Editor SO, WE are about to spend another $100 million on the gun registry, to honour the memory of 14 women, shot 15 years ago? ("Cabinet holds the fort," Dec. 7) Are we out of our minds? How about spending that money on medical facilities, cancer research, and shelters? Spending a billion dollars to save a dozen lives is not worth it -- not when that money, if used elsewhere, could save thousands. Is 14 women getting shot a bigger tragedy than 5,000 women dying of breast cancer? Ana Pereira Toronto Editor: (Actually, saving lives would be worth it, but there's no evidence the registry does that) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:21:24 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: Editorial: Scrapping the gun registry PUBLICATION: The Guardian (Charlottetown) DATE: 2004.12.10 SECTION: Editorial PAGE: A6 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Scrapping the gun registry - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ It's too bad Roger Gallaway dropped his motion to end funding for the gun registry. But the Liberals can't erase the writing on the wall as easily as they can silence one of their own MPs. In fact, while Mr. Gallaway's motion probably would have failed in any vote today, support seemed likely to come from some New Democrats and Liberals as well as Conservatives. Indeed, Conservative MP Peter MacKay has put forward an identical motion to Mr. Gallaway's, but it, too, will likely fail today. Such wide-spectrum opposition to the registry is a sign that its problems go beyond ideology. It is a wasteful, poorly run program. Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan and others have questioned Mr. Gallaway's timing, as his motion was to come a few days after the 15th anniversary of the gun murder of 14 women in Montreal by Marc Lepine. But if the registry is flawed - and it is - it is flawed every day of the year. No one can say with any certainty whether the gun registry, or any gun control program, would have prevented Marc Lepine's crime, or any crime. Neither can anyone be certain about what is behind the decrease in gun-related deaths in Canada. It's possible the registry is to thank for that, but it's also possible it isn't. The truth is not served by assumptions and unproven claims. What is clear, however, is that the wastefulness, complexity and unforeseen costs of the registry have not prevented any crimes. The implementation of the firearms program has come at a price tag for taxpayers of more than $1 billion. The registry portion itself is currently costing $33 million a year; the government says it will cap the annual cost at $25 million starting next fiscal year. We'll believe it when we see it. In the meantime, the Liberals' blind support for this program is beginning to smack of desperation. Ottawa Citizen editorial. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:21:44 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: Letter: Continuing gun registry is more mismanagement PUBLICATION: The Windsor Star DATE: 2004.12.10 EDITION: Final SECTION: Editorial/Opinion PAGE: A7 BYLINE: Randy Grosso SOURCE: Windsor Star - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Continuing gun registry is more mismanagement - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ It's no wonder we are so highly taxed in this country. Our politicians would rather continue to dump millions into this gun-registry abyss than face the facts. The arrogant and misleading politicians continue to spew their rhetoric and flaunt their untouchable status in our face. So Joe Comartin is for the additional spending on this registry, a year after Sheila Fraser's audit (which was not fully completed because of lost paperwork) declared it a gross mismanagement of funds. Public Safety Minister Anne McLellan has just released new amendments to the gun registry, which include reducing and eliminating some fees. Her statement reads: "These amendments will help us to achieve that goal more efficiently while enabling the government to meet its commitment made in May to facilitate compliance for responsible firearm owners." Can you say spin-doctor? This is just another way of getting already financially strapped farmers and hunters to jump on board a flawed system with little or no cost. Make no mistake about it, we may not pay now but history teaches us we will pay later. England and other European countries are now seeing the effects of their gun-control laws. Dramatic increases in licensing fees have forced hunters and farmers to give up hunting or turn in their firearms while doing nothing to curb violence. A year ago, Toronto police Chief Julian Fantino came under fire for publicly stating the gun registry was not reducing crime or helping his officers. Ethnic gang crime is continuously on the rise in larger cities throughout the country. Knives have become a weapon of choice with the recent murders in Windsor and Toronto. Since when does two life sentences equal 17 years in prison? With continuous knee-jerk laws, not prosecuting criminals to the fullest and not-so-common common-sense politicians, higher taxes and useless legislation will become the norm. Randy Grosso Windsor ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:22:13 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: Letter: All of Mr. Cullen's verbiage.... PUBLICATION: National Post DATE: 2004.12.10 EDITION: National SECTION: Editorials PAGE: A23 BYLINE: Louis D. Silver SOURCE: National Post - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gun registry - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Gun Registry Is Saving Lives, letter from Roy Cullen, Dec. 8. Despite what Mr. Cullen says, there is no evidence that the registry has saved a single life. The fact that law-abiding citizens have registered their firearms is totally beside the point. They are not the ones who would be using their firearms in the commission of crimes. All of Mr. Cullen's verbiage about "safe storage, handling and transportation of firearms, safety training and education," is disingenuous gilding of the lily, or, to be more apt, blueing of the pistol. In the final analysis the registry was designed for "the licensing of firearms owners and the registration of firearms." That is what ultimately costs in excess of a billion dollars, without real benefit. All the other matters could have been achieved with simple pieces of legislation, and many were already in the Criminal Code of Canada before this useless registry was introduced. Mr. Cullen claims costs are being cut to $85-million for fiscal 2005-06. He neglects to mention that this sum is more than 40 times the original estimated cost of the entire program. Louis D. Silver, Toronto. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V7 #617 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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