From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V7 #669 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, December 30 2004 Volume 07 : Number 669 In this issue: RE: Cards message Ref: CFDv7n665 CFDv7n688 Gun Control re: English Bill of Rights New Zealand: Gun registration off the agenda Re: CFDv7n665 Re: The Right Inherited From England "this could have been you" My letter to the KW Record Letter: Gun registry is a waste Letter: What was that gun registry worth again? Editorial: We forked out 300 times that on the flawed gun registry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:48:38 -0600 (CST) From: "Edward Sieb" Subject: RE: Cards message Pete, I've been dealing with a*holes like this for more than 25 years. I grew up with them, went to school with them, lived next door to them, and know them very well. If you've had any success in convincing them, you're both luckier than me, and far more determined. Personally, I've had nothing but grief and frustration dealing with these types. They're completely incorrigible, and closed minded. In short, they're suffering from some sort of mental disorder that renders them unable to accept reality, nor accept common sense properly. These closed-minded people truly believe that they're better than us, more "progressive" than us, and more enlightened. They are ultimately wise, while we are not. They consider us their lessers, and unfit to conduct our lives as we see fit. They truly know better. They truly believe in their own righteousness and sagacity, and nothing will change their minds. Their cultural conceits are mindboggling! Liberalism truly is a mental disorder. Ed Sieb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:59:04 -0600 (CST) From: tcbfalls@canada.com Subject: Ref: CFDv7n665 Actually Ed, I have been poor, and probably wil be again some day. I have no argument with the poor, and most - as you say - are noble people making the best of a bad situation. My argument is with those who squander their family resources on booze, drugs, gambling, etc., then expect us to buy them food and pay them rent while witholding our moral dissaproval. Their kids are not starving because of the unfairness of capitalist society, they are starving because or the criminal actions of their parents. Tom Falls ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:30:30 -0600 (CST) From: tcbfalls@canada.com Subject: CFDv7n688 Rick wrote: "How to deal with our social problems just isn't that simple." True enough. Tom Falls ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:35:34 -0600 (CST) From: tcbfalls@canada.com Subject: Gun Control Mr. Etherington Aside from your thuggish slamming of rural Canadians (the ones who grow your food)as "hillbillies", you appear to contradict yourself. You claim that the gun control system is needed to register guns, then state that most of the husbands who kill their wives with guns do so with registered guns. Read that again Frank, then think about it. If the murder weapon was registered, then registration didn't help, did it? As for the youth of Canada blasting each other on our streets (more like the youth of Sri Lanka, Vietnam, and Jamaica - but no matter), they don't register their guns, do they? Wrap your urban elitist brain around this fact, Frank: Canada has registered handguns since 1934 and they STILL remain the weapon of choice for gang-bangers. So here is a radical thought; have a national criminal registry. If you wan't to buy a gun of mine, I phone a 1-800 number or go on line and see if you are an ex-con, wife-beater, child molester, or whatever. Updated immediately. Far easier to register the bad people than the good ones, right? Tom Falls Lancaster Park Alberta tcbfalls@canada.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:09:11 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Gingrich Subject: re: English Bill of Rights 'Has anyone done such a treatise on these inherited rights as they apply to Canadians? If so, to argue against them becomes spurious in the extreme.' Todd - --------------------------------------------------------------- The one study I know of is Dr. Ted Morton's "How Bill C-68 Violates the Charter of Rights and Freedoms". There may be others. Both the Canadian and US governments now recognize the right to keep and bear arms was an established right of British Subjects which originated with the English Bill of Rights of 1689.. The right was imported into Canada and the US.. The Canadian govt., however, suggested the right was extinguished by the Canadian Firearms Act of 1995 when the Canadian Firearms Centre issued this statement: "BACKGROUND: The Firearms Act is a relatively new piece of legislation, introduced in 1995, with components phased in, some as recent as 2001. It, in conjunction with other complementary Federal initiatives, provides a comprehensive and far reaching public safety focused approach to Gun Control in Canada. Firearm possession/ownership is now, clearly a privilege, not a right. This significant shift in public policy will require a period of adjustment to allow the firearms community, law enforcement, and the judicial/court system to adapt and adjust to this reality. The adjustment period will be prolonged by the traditional importance and availability of firearms in our culture and economy." The "significant shift in public policy" is that that they turned our right to keep and bear arms gained in the English Bill of Rights into a privilege using a law (C-68) to do it.. Does a mere law remove an existing right? Not according to Sparrow 1990, the Supreme Court affirmed that regulation of a right does not automatically extinguish the right (Morton). I feel licensing firearms owners extinguishes the right, and registration of firearms which they own also extinguishes the right. I also feel I still have the right to keep and bear arms and that C-68 is unconstitutional. I strongly suggest that Canadians refuse to license themselves and also refuse to register their firearms as they then voluntarily give up their historic right to keep and bear arms established in 1689. This is certainly not a treatise, a formal essay or a book, only an observation. Yours in Tyranny, Joe Gingrich White Fox, ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:31:58 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: New Zealand: Gun registration off the agenda Gun registration off the agenda - Hawkins FRIDAY , 24 DECEMBER 2004 The Government has finally abandoned the idea of registering firearms. Police Minister George Hawkins confirmed today that registration will not be in a bill he is preparing to tighten border control of illicit arms trading. The legislation will bring New Zealand into line with international protocols on the control of weapons, parts and ammunition. The registration of all the guns in the country was recommended seven years ago in a government-commissioned review of gun laws carried out by Sir Thomas Thorpe. Neither the previous nor the present government acted on the recommendation, and Mr Hawkins said today it was off the agenda. "Police told the Government it wouldn't make very much difference, and they recommended that we did not register every firearm," he said on National Radio. "Police advice was that most of the times guns are used illegally, they are illegal guns and they don't know about them anyway." MORE http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3138863a11,00.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:26:01 -0600 (CST) From: "mred" Subject: Re: CFDv7n665 - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: Ref: CFDv7n665 > Actually Ed, I have been poor, and probably wil be again some day. I > have no argument with the poor, and most - as you say - are noble > people making the best of a bad situation. My argument is with those > who squander their family resources on booze, drugs, gambling, etc., > then expect us to buy them food and pay them rent while witholding our > moral dissaproval. Their kids are not starving because of the > unfairness of capitalist society, they are starving because or the > criminal actions of their parents. > > Tom Falls > > Well I`ve been there and done that too, but it must be be a lot different > today than it was 50 years ago? ed/ontario ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:27:12 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: Re: The Right Inherited From England - ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd Birch To: Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:06 PM Subject: Re: The Right Inherited From England > All this is very good as it pertains to the 2nd Amendment of the US > Constitution, but in what manner is it similarly applicable to Canada? > It can be argued that the English settlers of North America brought those > inherited rights with them to this continent and therefore are as applicable > this side of the border as they are in the US. Exactly right. Wherever Englishmen settled, they took English Law with them. From the Federal Prosecutor's Desk Book: "Settlers of unsettled territory were deemed to take with them the common law and applicable statute law of England" [...] "The basic criminal law of each territory varied according to the date of initial settlement or conquest. For example, the date of "reception" fixed for Ontario was September 17, 1792[5]. Just before Confederation, the criminal law of Canada consisted of that part of the criminal law of England applicable as of the reception date for each territory concerned, and any alterations made by the legislature of the territory[6]." > Has anyone done such a treatise on these inherited rights as they apply to > Canadians? If so, to argue against them becomes spurious in the extreme. > > Todd Not a treatise, but I have pulled together some important elements of this and other laws for a bit of an overview at one of my web pages: http://home.cogeco.ca/~akimoya/rfc/rkba.html Yours in Liberty, Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 02:15:48 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Gingrich Subject: "this could have been you" http://www.helpjonathan.com/ The following atrocity took place in the small village of Baxter, approximately 8 miles south west of Barrie. If you or a family member has ever fired a rifle for target practice this could have been you or someone you know... This is a short completely factual account of the events that took place as released by the victim's lawyer Mr. Ed Burlew LLB. READ IT CAREFULLY. THIS COULD HAVE BEEN ME!! Account as Released: On Tuesday May 27, 2003 the victim, 29 year old Jonathan Logan, who has never so much as had a speeding ticket, was lawfully hunting groundhogs on a farm field approximately 300 yards from Baxter Public School between the hours of 5:20 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. keeping in mind that students at the school had been released more then an hour and he had the permission of the land owner to be hunting within the confines of that property. THE POLICE INVESTIGATED AND CONFIRMED THE FOLLOWING: Jonathan Logan was indeed hunting ground hogs on a farmer's field approximately 300 yards from the school from 5:20 pm to 6:00 pm after school with permission of the farmer where the farmer had asked him to reduce the groundhog population. He was using a registered non-restricted rifle designed for varmint hunting. He was using the said rifle in a safe manner and Mr. Logan is a holder of a valid Ontario Hunting license. Mr. Logan was not on school property at any time and did not point the rifle at the school, any person or farm animal at any time. The rifle was transported in a safe manner at all times. Mr. Logan stopped hunting when he noticed that children were back at the school playing soccer and it was dinnertime! The police met him at his home and arrested him for charges that were later determined by the police to be groundless and are not being pursued. Note that he met the police as he pulled into his driveway and was arrested as he exited the vehicle having not entered his home. His rifle was in his vehicle, cased and unloaded and being transported safely in his vehicle when he stopped to meet the police. While under arrest for non-existent offenses, thus making the arrest unlawful, he was placed on the ground, had a .223 caliber Ruger Mini 14 pointed at his head by a police officer and was hand-cuffed in a painful method. Then he was stood up and taken to the trunk area of the police vehicle and strip searched in full public view. His pants were left dangling just above the knees for between 10 to 20 minutes as neighbors and traffic passed by. While under this unlawful arrest the police refused to let him or any other person into his home. The police insisted he sign consent to a search of his home without a warrant. This is significant because his 3-year-old child Joshua is a heart transplant recipient and was due for his hourly feeding and medication, which was kept in the house. The police would not let Mrs. Logan, Jonathan or Jonathan's father or any other person into the house to get the food or medication, without the police being given consent to search. The police had been shown the stomach tube for the 3-year-old Joshua's hourly feeding and were also told by Mrs. Logan and Jonathan Logan that all of the firearms in the home were safely stored. The police at that time had no reasonable or probable grounds to believe there was any illegal items in the home or that there was any evidence of an offence in the home. They know Jonathan Logan had broken no law. Jonathan had proof in his wallet that all his firearms were registered. Under the physical duress of having at least a dozen police officers armed with non-restricted, restricted and prohibited firearms and with many shotguns and rifles being pointed by police at all of the Logan's was coerced by the police into signing a consent to search which he was not allowed to read. The police then entered the house. Mr. Logan firmly believes his rights under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to be free from unreasonable search and seizure was breached and that the alleged unsafe storage of one unloaded .22 rifle and .22 caliber ammunitions is based on the unlawful police actions. He was taken to the police station and released on a simple recognizance after 6 hours. Some of the more disgusting and inhuman things that Jonathan was subjected to such as the internal search with rubber gloves and flashlight and the cruel treatment and lewd suggestions made to him when he pleaded with the officers to at least pull up his pants so he was no longer exposed to the members of the public and his young children, had not been included in the original press release but beg to be told. Was this the actions of caring police officers trained and sworn to protect our individual rights or a group of thugs out of control? Ask yourself, "What if it had been me or my Son or Daughter?" Due to his son's illness and the time spent at hospital, Jonathan lost his job recently, now he must give police 24 hours notice before starting any new job. Oddly enough once notice is given the potential employers have been visited before he starts work and all perspective jobs fall through!!! We are all sports men and women and Jonathan is one of our own and he needs our help, both financially and with moral support, to get him through this crisis in his families life. I would hope that the sporting community and all people who want justice served, will help in any way they can, no matter how little, we have strength in numbers. Jonathan is not a terrorist but only a young man involved in a legal activity that we all love. He did not deserve this treatment. Please help Jonathan and his family find justice... Donations may be dropped of at the Wolf's Den Sporting Supplies Ltd. located at 7560 Con 8, RR #1, Utopia, Ontario L0M 1T0. Our phone number is (705) 424-4867. Receipts will be issued. Please show your support and express your concerns for Jonathan and his family c/o Wolf's Den Sporting Supplies (at the above address). Lets wake the sleeping GIANT. Let us show everyone how we feel and how we can stand together for one of our own. Let us show that we are law-abiding citizens of this country and will not allow anyone to treat us with anything but respect, no matter whom they are. Be sure that you send a message, write your local newspapers, radio stations, MP'S, MPP'S, telling them we will not stand for this. Don't wait for someone else to do it, stand up and be counted; let us all take a stand. We must correct this travesty of justice now or the next time it could be one of us. Yours in Conservation and Justice, Staff of Wolf's Den Sporting Supplies Ltd., Carl, Gary, Tammy and Lynn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 02:42:12 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: My letter to the KW Record Just submitted, not yet printed. Have you written a letter today? - ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Mills To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 3:34 AM Subject: re: Gun-toting MP needs shot of reality on gun deaths Frank Etherington's bigoted diatribe against MP Paul Steckle, and all law abiding gun owners, shows the hypocricy and elitism behind what passes for liberal "thought" these days. By using such terms as "hillbilly", "good-ole-boy", "red-around-the-collar", and "corny" he shows his contempt for all rural (read "non-urban") denizens and their lifestyles. He calls such a portrayal "tasteless". It his own beliefs that are tasteless! Etherington's hatred and fear of guns shows through, too, calling them "deadly weapons", saying that the Steckles are "brandishing" them, and expressing surprise about teaching young people the importance of gun safety and handling. He calls Steckle's stand against the failed firearms fiasco "misguided" - as if he holds the monopoly on the One True Way. This kind of self-satisfied smugness sickens me. True to lieberal form, Etherington trots out vague and meaningless statistics to try and back up his irrational fear of guns. He says that "40 per cent of Canadian women murdered by husbands were shot". What he fails to say is that there are less than 60 such murders. I err on the side of caution, as actual, hard, factual numbers are not easy to come by. The anti-gun extremists like it that way, since it allows them to decieve and distract the public with irrational and emotional nonsense, instead of the truth. He waves around a figure of "1,200 Canadians who, in homicides, suicides and accidents, are slaughtered every year with firearms." All very tragic, but what he doesn't say is that even though suicides with guns may be down slightly, overall suicides have stayed relativity the same. I guess it's better that they hang themselves, as long as they don't use guns, right? Of the homicides with guns, 70% of the perpetrators had a previous criminal history, as did 50% of their victims. Firearms accidents have always been so minuscule that they have hardly been a blip on the radar, but those have dropped through education, not licensing and registration. The same education for which he decries Steckle for giving his family. Even according to the Federal Liberal Government's fudged, low-balled, statistics, there are 2 million gun owners who own some 7 million guns. Ninety-nine percent of those will never commit a crime, and 99% of those guns never will, either. The law abiding gun owners of Canada never were, and never will be, "the problem". Etherington and his gun-hating ilk have perpetrated a massive and costly fraud on the Canadian public, and they must be exposed for the charlatans they are. Instead of chasing down Uncle George and forcing him under penalty of law to place a useless piece of paper beside his duck gun, the BILLION dollars that has been flagrantly wasted in this pursuit would have been better spent on funding for more women's shelters, counselling programs for abusers, suicide prevention, firearms education, more cops on the street, or funding the Criminal Justice System so that it becomes a Citizen Justice System. Yours in Liberty, Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:45:53 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: Letter: Gun registry is a waste PUBLICATION: The Record (Waterloo Region) DATE: 2004.12.30 SECTION: Opinion PAGE: A6 BYLINE: Brian Knipfel - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Gun registry is a waste - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Frank Etherington shows in his Dec. 27 column, Gun-Toting MP Needs Shot Of Reality On Gun Deaths, that he is upset with Paul Steckle's Christmas card. It's because of people such as Etherington that the government continues to waste millions of our tax dollars on firearm registration. Etherington says more 15- to 24-year-olds are being killed by firearms every year. I bet if we were to check we would find most of these kids are not from the rural areas, like Steckle's. Rather they are from an urban area where, no thanks to firearm registration, it is probably easier to buy a gun than a good book. The fact that 40 per cent of woman murdered by their husbands are shot is terrible indeed. Had they not had access to a firearm though, could they not have used what the other 60 per cent are using? The facts also state that 80 per cent of the firearms used are legally owned firearms. A registered firearm that is stolen and used in a crime is still a legally owned firearm. Again, this shows that our tax dollars are wasted on the firearm registration. We should be working on improving our family and social values which seem to be deteriorating at an alarming rate. As long as people waste time and money on something that is not the problem we will still have a problem. Brian Knipfel Petersburg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:48:18 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: Letter: What was that gun registry worth again? PUBLICATION: The Edmonton Sun DATE: 2004.12.30 EDITION: Final SECTION: Editorial/Opinion PAGE: 10 COLUMN: Letters to the Editor Wow, Canadians should be really proud of themselves for offering one airplane load of supplies and a whopping $4 million to the relief effort for victims of the earthquake and tsunamis. That is quite the response from a country our prime minister likes to call the economic "northern tiger." How much is Adrian Clarkson's budget? What was that gun registry worth again? Pathetic. M. Scott Editor (The government is loosening its purse.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:55:10 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: Editorial: We forked out 300 times that on the flawed gun registry PUBLICATION: The Province DATE: 2004.12.30 EDITION: Final SECTION: Editorial PAGE: A18 SOURCE: The Province ILLUSTRATION: Photo: "While no longer a powerful military nation,Canadians pride themselves on their role in fostering world peace and helping the poor and afflicted in less developed countries." - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Canadian government slow to get serious about sending aid to Asian tsunami victims - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Chump change. That was the reaction of many Canadians to the news earlier this week that Ottawa would make a contribution of just $4 million to help the victims of the terrible Christmas tsunami in Southeast Asia. After all, we taxpayers had already forked out 300 times that amount on the flawed gun registry. We even spent more sending Gov.-Gen. Adrienne Clarkson and her elite pals to Russia, Finland and Iceland. And, while no longer part of a powerful military nation, we continue to take pride in Canada's role in fostering world peace and helping the poor and afflicted in less developed countries. That is why many of us felt the federal government was being lackadaisical over this latest world disaster -- especially as no word had been heard from Prime Minister Paul Martin, vacationing in Morocco. Skilled emergency help from countries like Canada was obviously needed. And, as the government dithered, the death estimates kept rising, to more than 80,000. So yesterday afternoon there was a general sense of relief among sympathetic members of the public that Ottawa had finally decided to play catch-up. Defence Minister Bill Graham told reporters the government was increasing its originally planned Asian aid contribution to $40 million. He announced Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew and International Co-operation Minister Aileen Carroll would return to Canada from their respective vacations. And he read a statement from Martin offering his condolences. Further, Graham said a 12-member advance group would go to the devastated area to make recommendations about additional help. The group would be made up of members of the controversial Disaster Assistance Response Team, last used five years ago to assist in earthquake relief efforts in Turkey. It was the same team that on Tuesday was described by defence officials as "not the right tool at this time" to help the tsunami victims. Now, Ottawa may slowly be getting its act together over how to address this horrific disaster. But, it is hard to avoid the feeling that it has had to be prodded into doing so by a more caring and concerned public. - - - - What do you think? Leave a brief comment, name and town at: 604-605-2029, fax: 604-605-2099 or e-mail: provletters@png.canwest.com ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V7 #669 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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