From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V7 #935 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, March 31 2005 Volume 07 : Number 935 In this issue: [LETTER] Offended by your focus Youth faces charges after car chases Sent to Fairview Post Re: [EDITORIAL] No more excuses on Air India Website of Interest to CFD Letter on Self Defence on CFD Re: [LETTER] Offended by your focus 12(5)Gun owners targeted. Getting hold of the numbers Re: 12(5)Gun owners targeted. Re: Old RFC case Re: Old RFC case Ref CFDv7n934 another Bomarc-type bungle Re: Fear & Respect & Mostly Raving BS Re: Fear & Respect & Mostly Raving BS BRITAIN: Pellet gun teacher sent to prison ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:50:56 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: [LETTER] Offended by your focus http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/WinnipegSun/Letters/ Offended by your focus RE: Killer liked Hitler (Associated Press, March 23). I find it very offensive that you have focused so much on what Jeff Weise wore. I think it's totally irrelevant whether he wore eyeliner, a trench coat and combat boots or not. Are you trying to say that those are always the kids that bring guns to school? I know a lot of people who wear a lot of black and they haven't brought a gun to school. I doubt that many of them have even seen a gun before. If Weise had been a jock you wouldn't have said that he often wore jerseys. The fact that he visited neo-Nazi sites is relevant, not his fashion choices. Mary McDonald Clandeboye (Aren't we touchy?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:02:10 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: Youth faces charges after car chases http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/WinnipegSun/News/2005/03/30/976329-sun.html Youth faces charges after car chases By CARY CASTAGNA, POLICE REPORTER A 14-year-old boy is facing nearly a dozen charges after a teen led cops on two separate high-speed chases with stolen vehicles that endangered the public and police. A 15-year-old female passenger faces a joyriding charge. During the latest incident, a stolen pickup truck crashed into a popular North End fish market and police were threatened with a knife. "It's a senseless crime," said Karen Olson, manager of the Gimli Fish Market. "I'm not sure what will happen to those two kids." The Gimli Fish Market at 569 Dufferin Ave., sustained about $200,000 in damage early Monday morning, when a stolen vehicle crashed into it, said Winnipeg police spokeswoman Const. Shelly Glover. UNINSURED MOTORISTS "We've been told by our insurance company that we might have to pay our deductible because they're uninsured motorists," Olson said. "It doesn't seem fair." Shortly before midnight on Sunday, a 2005 Dodge Magnum was stolen from a parking lot in the 100 block of Main Street. Patrolling officers spotted the vehicle being driven near Dufferin Avenue and Andrews Street about 1:30 a.m. Monday. The driver refused to stop for police, leading them on a high-speed chase, which involved the fish market crash. "The whole wall buckled," Olson said. "They drove into the corner of our building and took out the window and the wall." The vehicle then sped off and drove directly at an oncoming marked police cruiser with "no regard for the safety or the lives of the police officers," Glover said. As the cruiser swerved to avoid a head-on collision, the stolen vehicle continued speeding for several blocks before slamming into a parked vehicle at Powers Street and St. John's Avenue. Both occupants tried to flee, but cops caught up to them, Glover said. The young driver allegedly pulled out a knife, but police managed to disarm him, Glover said. The boy, who is also accused of stealing a Ford truck on March 21 and the next day getting into a police chase that was aborted for safety reasons, is charged with possessing property obtained by crime, two counts of dangerous operation of a motor vehicle, possessing a dangerous weapon, three counts of failing to comply with sentence or disposition, failing to leave particulars, driving a motor vehicle while under 16, flight from police and theft over $5,000. He was detained at the Manitoba Youth Centre, while the girl was released on a promise to appear. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:29:46 -0600 (CST) From: Walter Martindale Subject: Sent to Fairview Post - -------- Original Message -------- Sir, In your editorial, Maniacs and guns are a lethal mix, Tuesday, 29 March, 2005, you enumerate some tragic events, and discuss how Canadian gun laws make Canada a safer place than the USA, because our laws are stricter than those in the States. It's true that Maniacs and guns are a lethal mix. However, maniacs and knives, maniacs and cars, and maniacs and machetes are also lethal mixes. Someone in Harrod's department store, in London, took a large carving-type knife to 14 people. I can't remember exactly when, or how many of those died, but surely, if knives were so benign, 14 people wouldn't have been slashed. Common factor: maniac, not weapon. Correlation does not imply causation - that's drummed into people in statistics courses everywhere. The large number of guns in the US versus the smaller numbers of guns in Canada has less to do with the differences univalent gun use than does the cultural difference between the two countries. In the States, the Second Amendment to their constitution provides citizens the right to keep and bear arms, and in the States, most jurisdictions believe it is OK to shoot someone who is attacking. In Canada, weave had many rights to self defense weakened by prosecution for "excessive use of force" when someone shoots, for example, a home-invader, when that may have been the only way to stop the attacker - who, of course, was "victim of a bad up bringing". (e g., Why is it considered excessive for a 50 kg woman to shoot a 100 kg man who is attacking with the intent frappe, intimidation, and a severe beating, and why is it illegal for that woman to have a weapon at hand with which to protect herself? Can you imagine: "Wait, stop raping me so I can call 9-1-1.") The death rate for human beings is 100%. Birth is a fatal affliction - it's only going to end with the person dying, so perhaps we shouldn't let people get born. What's at issue is the timing and means by which a person's life ends. I agree whole heartedly that violent death is unfortunate, tragic, and I agree that the person who commits that violence should be treated very roughly by the "justice" system. I do NOT agree that the NON violent firearm owner, who has NOT committed violent acts with or without his/her firearm, should suffer, or lose his/her rights and privileges to own and use firearms for sport, hunting, or even protection, because of violent acts of what is truly a very small number of people. Canada's gun control laws have not saved a lot of people. Canada's culture has been the difference, and I hope that it can remain that way. Walter Martindale, Calgary ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:30:15 -0600 (CST) From: "mred" Subject: Re: [EDITORIAL] No more excuses on Air India - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Mills" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 3:48 PM Subject: [EDITORIAL] No more excuses on Air India > http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/WinnipegSun/Editorial/home.html > > No more excuses on Air India > Compare that to Canada, where, 20 years after the Air India bombing, > Canadians are still waiting for answers about what went wrong with the > notoriously botched investigations by the Canadian Security Intelligence > Service and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. > > McLellan's assurances that CSIS' actions -- including erasing hundreds of > hours of key wiretap evidence -- were reviewed by the Security > Intelligence > Review Committee and that CSIS and the RCMP are working well together > today > are meaningless. > Does the term coverup and corruptionenter into this equation ? ed/ontario ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:30:37 -0600 (CST) From: tcbfalls@canada.com Subject: Website of Interest to CFD There is a website called www.army.ca some of you may be interested in. It is not a govt website, and has Civies, Ex-Military, Cadets, Militia, Regs, Retirees, Yanks, Aussies and Brits on it. There are many interesting threads, two of interest to most of us: one on self-defence, and one on gun control. Users are from cadet age to WW2 vet age, and from Cadet Pte to Retired Colonel, and probably higher. Have fun! Tom Falls ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:30:55 -0600 (CST) From: tcbfalls@canada.com Subject: Letter on Self Defence on CFD There was a letter from the Attorney General or somesuch on the use of lethal force pulished on CFD a few weeks back. Can someone give me the link? Tom Falls ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:31:20 -0600 (CST) From: Vladyslav Strashko Subject: Re: [LETTER] Offended by your focus There is a good point here, however, if I have firearms it doesn't mean I'm some kind of "redneck", "urban gangster", "nut-case" or potential criminal. There is a trend in media that is trying to put everyone who did something wrong into (a) crazy, (b) potential felon or criminal (they would even link something like speeding ticket to prove that you were "well known to the police"), (c) Nazi, (d) "Goth", (e) drug dealer or user (someone just mentioned that you stood next to a person who was smoking), etc, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:31:46 -0600 (CST) From: 10x <10x@telus.net> Subject: 12(5)Gun owners targeted. Prohibited firearms, other than prohibited 12(6) handguns, may no longer be transported to a shooting range. They may only be transported for specific purposes, such as a change of residence, repair, export, disposal or taken to a gun show. http://www.cfc.gc.ca/media/news_releases/2005/2005-03-29-bg_e.asp It looks as if those gun owners with 12(5) prohibited firearms will no longer be able to take them to their local gun ranges to shoot these guns legally and safely. The firearms act isn't about reducing crime or increasing public safety. It is about being vindictive towards those law abiding gun owners that registered their guns in good faith. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:36:35 -0600 (CST) From: Lee Jasper Subject: Getting hold of the numbers Info for a 'prohibited' registry: Previously I learned: There are "176,000 persons prohibited for owning firearms by the courts. (via the CFC's Bill Baker). (Thanks to a resourceful public servant working from sick bay in the service of law abiding, tax paying citizens of the Dominion. Who says Ottawa bureaucrats are all fat cats)? Additional information provided by the RCMP to the Library of Parliament on October 27, 2004. (Via the same rehabbing public servant who no doubt is reassured now that Ontairo's McGuinty has re-listed physiotherapeutic services). Outstanding Canada-wide warrants = 199,553 Outstanding province-wide warrants = 111,512 Canada-wide restraining orders = 37,015 Province-wide restraining orders = 2,241 Total . . . .. .. . . . . . . . . . . 350,321 From the Calgary Herald; 2005.03.30; DNA data worth banking on "Canada's DNA database, in development since 1998, is not as comprehensive as it should be. It contains 65,406 samples of convicted offenders and 16,901 from unsolved crimes." I believe I read some reference to there being some 3 Mil Canadians with "criminal records". I realize many of these are stale, petty, and contain victimless crime incidents. Just the type of 'hidden' smudge that causes all kinds of aggravation during border crossings and when going through employment screening and bonding. So the number of 'serious' criminals who should be "prohibited" is open for interpretation. Notwithstanding, I come up with 591,727 unsavory persons, many who would be hard to 'track'. (No doubt some would get double-counted). Factor in even half of the 3 mil with records and we've got more persons 'who should be prohibited' than licenced gun owners. It's certainly easier to 'control' the already law abiding (an oxymoron) than this large group of proven, unlawful persons. Question. Are the various 'known' members of "criminal organizations" who have not yet been convicted of any crime, but are known to be guilty 'by association' counted in Baker's numbers? Question. If there 3 mil citizens with 'criminal' records - how come Baker only 'recognizes that there are only 176,000 prohibited persons? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:38:03 -0600 (CST) From: j galt Subject: Re: 12(5)Gun owners targeted. > The firearms act isn't about reducing crime or > increasing public safety. > It is about being vindictive towards those law > abiding gun owners that > registered their guns in good faith. > > perhaps, or... ..-. ..- -.-. -.- -.-. . -. ... --- .-. ... .... .. .--. "N'attribuez jamais à la méchanceté cela qui est en juste proportion expliqué par l'incompétence." N. Bonaparte --.- ..- . ... - .. --- -. .- ..- - .... --- .-. .. - - -.-- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:00:39 -0600 (CST) From: Lee Jasper Subject: Re: Old RFC case Ed reported: > In case anyone has forgotten? : his upstairs male neighbor and > friend came down into his apt and tied him up and forced him to give > him the combination to his gun safes. The upstairs neighbor > consequently offed himself in his upper apt., after the victim got > loose and called the Gestapo. With 'friends' like that. . . > The victim, Al Best was subsequently charged with unsafe storage and > a couple of other minor charges although all his guns (a lifetime > collection) were locked up. Bet he'd appreciate having them back, even if a 'friend' had to hold them for a while!! Mark added: > can't remember the details of his conviction and he didn't seem to > really understand what had happened. It "could have been worse", but > it was pretty devastating. A few of us kicked in some money to help > with his costs but it was likely nowhere near enough. Ed/Mark: Would a little RFC PR campaign encourage the gendarmes whose interest is 'to serve and protect' not to unduly harass or discourage, and speed up the release of the man's firearms? (I couldn't find the case online). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:17:56 -0600 (CST) From: Mark L Horstead Subject: Re: Old RFC case - --- Lee Jasper wrote: > > The victim, Al Best was subsequently charged with > unsafe storage and > > a couple of other minor charges although all his > guns (a lifetime > > collection) were locked up. > > Bet he'd appreciate having them back, even if a > 'friend' had to hold > them for a while!! I was under the impression that he did get them back. > Ed/Mark: Would a little RFC PR campaign encourage > the gendarmes whose > interest is 'to serve and protect' not to unduly > harass or discourage, > and speed up the release of the man's firearms? (I > couldn't find the > case online). A PR campaign is unlikely to persuade police to return firearms, presuming that they still have them about a year later, especially as only a handful would be likely to participate. Only successful court action would accomplish that, and Al was broke even before this whole thing started and didn't seem much of the activist type. Regrettably, for Al and all of us, that's a battle long lost. There are others that we need to concentrate on, like Bruce Montague. I'm trying to kick in $100.68 to him every month until it's over. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:25:35 -0600 (CST) From: tcbfalls@canada.com Subject: Ref CFDv7n934 "No, I believe that this is something else, which is why I asked what flavour of 12(x) gun Tom's FNs are, and what "ranges" he was authorized to take them to." Class 12(5) OIC #13. Spruce Grove Gun Club Tom Falls ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:25:55 -0600 (CST) From: j galt Subject: another Bomarc-type bungle U.S. Army's Stryker Vehicle Faulty -Report Reuters Mar 31, 2005 - WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A new U.S. Army troop transport vehicle in Iraq has many defects, putting soldiers at risk from rocket-propelled grenades and raising questions about its $11 billion cost, The Washington Post reported in its Thursday edition. The vehicle is known as the Stryker, which is made by General Dynamics Corp., according to the newspaper, which said it reviewed a classified study by the Army in December. The report, drawn from confidential interviews with operators of the vehicles in Iraq in the last quarter of 2004, lists complaints about the vehicle including design flaws and maintenance problems that are "getting worse not better," the paper said. The Army report makes clear that the vehicle's military performance has fallen short although many soldiers in the field say they like the vehicle, the Post said. For example, an armoring shield installed on Stryker vehicles to protect against unanticipated attacks by insurgents using low-tech weapons works against half the grenades used to assault it, the newspaper said. The shield, installed at a base in Kuwait, is so heavy that tire pressure must be checked three times daily and nine tires a day are changed after failing, the paper said, referring to the Army document. "The additional weight significantly impacts the handling and performance during the rainy season," the Post cited the Army report as saying. The paper listed other complaints such as slow and overheating computers and a $157,000 grenade launcher that fails to hit targets when the vehicle is moving. The Army report said its laser designator, zoom, sensors, stabilizer and rotating speed all need redesign; it does not work at night; and its console display is in black and white although "a typical warning is to watch for a certain color automobile," the Post reported. Army figures show 17 soldiers in the Stryker combat brigade have died in Iraq in 157 bomb explosions. But whether the deaths occurred outside or inside the vehicle has not been specified, the Post said. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:26:37 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Lowe Subject: Re: Fear & Respect & Mostly Raving BS "James A. Krock" > Rick: Although you are right about Roszko, the point is that You Dont Get > No Respect by being a wimp. And you don't get any respect by being anything like Roszko. Or admiring somebody like Roszko. Or being like some of our members who rant and rave like lunatics... Getting attention is not the same as getting respect. A child throwing a temper tantrum usually manages to catch the attention of everyone within hearing range - but it doesn't get their respect. We look pretty moronic when we're whining and dropping our guts about how we're being stereotyped all the time - which is absolutely true - and then some of us promptly turn around and do exactly the same thing to the police or any other group. Stupid. - -- "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." George Orwell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:27:11 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Lowe Subject: Re: Fear & Respect & Mostly Raving BS "mred" wrote: > mine. YOU stated them, I didnt.......I just pointed out that we do > have a police state where police DO act like criminals........ Of course we have a police state - that's why everybody was ranting and raving a few weeks ago because a conviction wasn't secured in the Air India trial. Damned Police state can't even convict people! The hell with the presumption of innocence and forcing the Crown to prove their case - march the guilty bastards in so we can give them a fair trial and convict them. Let's get Ed Hudson and Oscar Lacombe in line and try them the same way at the same time! And of course all our police DO act like criminals. We also know without doubt that a firearm in the home IS 47 times more likely to lead to the death of a family member than be used in successful defense of life. After all, if you and Wendy say these things are true, then it must be so, right Ed? You two share the same philosophy... Maybe we should just build a huge giant jail and lock up all the criminal cops and all the murderous firearms owners. One big trial, guilt by association, get the maximum value out of our tax dollar by summarily convicting them all at once. > ASK ANY FIREARMS OWNER WHO HAS BEEN PUT THROUGH THE MILL BY COPS > LOOKING FOR PROMOTIONS "A 48-year-old Langley woman shot to death on the weekend had helped raise the 22-year-old man accused in her killing, family members said." ASK ANYBODY WHO HAS HAD A FAMILY MEMBER SHOT TO DEATH BY A "LAW ABIDING FIREARMS OWNER" HOW TRUSTWORTHY PEOPLE WHO OWN GUNS ARE! Damned criminal cops and damned murderous "law abiding gun owners". The sooner we finish stereotyping and getting rid of both groups, the safer we'll all be! Thank God we live in a world where the exception proves the rule - it makes life so much simpler. And equally obviously, as the criminal acts of some police prove they're all criminals, this criminal act by a "law abiding firearms owner" who was "not known to police" proves we're also all criminals. Ed and Wendy's logic makes it so easy to stereotype groups of people... This will probably rock your world Ed, but any cop "looking for promotions" by going after firearms cases is going to spend a long, long time as a constable. There are high profile areas to work in and high profile skill sets - but Firearms Act charges aren't one of them. > his upstairs male neighbor and friend came down into his apt and tied > him up and forced him to give him the combination to his gun safes ... > The victim, Al Best was subsequently charged with unsafe storage and > a a couple of other minor charges although all his guns ( a lifetime > collection) were locked up . > > This is in rebuttal to all those who think cops are not criminals. This is in rebuttal to all of those who don't know what the hell they are talking about or deliberately give an incorrect version of events in order to mislead people: Only one person came down stairs. Mr. Best was not tied up, he was handcuffed. Contrary to what you are telling people, Mr. Best had a handgun - for which he had no registration papers - sitting in a tupperware container in his kitchen. Unsecured, no trigger lock, and no explanation as to who he was actually holding it for. He did indeed have a gun safe - in his bedroom I believe - but the handgun obviously wasn't in there. Furthermore, other firearms were not locked in the safe. There were a couple of rifles and a shotgun laying out, surrounded by ammunition, that were not locked in the safe and didn't even have trigger locks on them. The justification behind the safe storage regulations aside, what you are saying is, as usual, simply not true and not born out by facts. Your rants are launched from the premise of a falsehood - as usual. Incidentally, Mr. Best was not given a firearms prohibition by the evil Liberal judge who tried his case... - -- "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." George Orwell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:27:28 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: BRITAIN: Pellet gun teacher sent to prison BBC - Pellet gun teacher sent to prison Tuesday, March 29, 2005 A special needs teacher who fired a pellet gun at youths she claimed had vandalised her house has been jailed for six months. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/manchester/4389945.stm ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V7 #935 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) If you find this service valuable, please consider making a tax-deductible donation to the freenet we use: Saskatoon Free-Net Assoc., P.O. Box 1342, Saskatoon SK S7K 3N9 Phone: (306) 382-7070 Home page: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/ These e-mail digests are free to everyone, and are made possible by the efforts of countless volunteers. Permission is granted to copy and distribute this digest as long as it not altered in any way.