From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V7 #953 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, April 7 2005 Volume 07 : Number 953 In this issue: Cukier's latest opus. Re: Oil 100 dollars a barrel explains everything Banning Guns Won't Stop Terrorists, Poll Shows What utter nonsense Re: Cukier's latest opus. Rising Tide of Jew-Hatred OT: News story on Stryker PQ got kickbacks, too RE: PQ got kickbacks, too Re: Gun collector sues police forces for $4.25 million Breitkreuz, Assistant 1: PROGRESS REPORT #2 - FOUR WEEKS OUT Re: Breitkreuz, Assistant 1: PROGRESS REPORT #2 Re: OT: News story on Stryker armed citizen What kind of rights ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:23:57 -0600 (CST) From: "Geoffrey Wale" Subject: Cukier's latest opus. Check out Cukier's latest opus, a website posted, by the look of it, on a Ryerson University server. This website is called SAFER - Net, SAFER stands for Small-arms/Firearms Education Research Net. This site seems to be a compilation of Cukier's writings published in various injury prevention and public health newsletters. The site includes the following quote: This site was created with the assistance of the Canadian Centre for Foreign Policy: www/cfp-pec.gc.ca Does this mean that Cukier is getting more funding from the public purse to promote herself and her mis-directed crusade to prohibit lawful gun ownership in Canada and abroad? It is bad enough that the pre-existing Coalition for Gun Control is propped up with public, including the gun owning public's money. Geoffrey S. Wale B.A., M.L.I.S. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:32:32 -0600 (CST) From: "mred" Subject: Re: Oil 100 dollars a barrel explains everything - ----- Original Message ----- From: "ross" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 12:49 PM Subject: Oil 100 dollars a barrel explains everything > With pundits and analysts saying Oil will reach 100 dollars US a barrel, > it > is no small wonder the Liberl governmentw wants us disarmed. > > They want docile sheep, not troublemakers ! They already have them,as per the last election ? ed/ontario ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:42:14 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Gingrich Subject: Banning Guns Won't Stop Terrorists, Poll Shows http://www.gopusa.com/news/2005/april/0406_gun_pollp.shtml Banning Guns Won't Stop Terrorists, Poll Shows By Susan Jones CNSNews.com Morning Editor April 6, 2005 (CNSNews.com) -- Would banning guns reduce the threat from terrorists? Seventy-five percent of Americans say no, according to a new Zogby International poll commissioned by the Second Amendment Foundation. Only one in five respondents supported a gun ban and five percent were not sure. Zobgy pollsters contacted 1,009 likely voters chosen at random nationwide between March 30 and April 1. The poll's margin of error is plus/minus 3.2 percent. SAF Founder Alan Gottlieb said the poll shows that Americans are not buying terrorism as an excuse to pass more restrictive gun laws. (The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence has used national security as justification for banning fifty-caliber "sniper rifles," which it says are "easily accessible" to terrorists.) But the Second Amendment Foundation says gun control groups like the Brady Campaign are waging a "one-note campaign" - their only solution, to "take guns away from people - any guns." Look at their track record, Gottlieb said: "Anti-gunners have used every excuse, every tragic event, to demand increasingly restrictive gun laws. "They pushed gun bans to stop urban crime, but look how that has failed in places like Washington, D.C., and Chicago. "They pressed for a gun-free school zones law but that hasn't stopped tragedies like Columbine and, more recently, Red Lake High School in Minnesota. And lately they've tried to gull America into supporting bans on certain firearms as a way to thwart terrorism." Gottlieb said terrorists are criminals who won't be stopped by disarming their intended victims: "Average Americans have figured this out, and we can only wonder why the gun control crowd hasn't," Gottlieb concluded. Pending legislation The Second Amendment Foundation poll comes as gun control groups are mobilizing opposition to a bill that would protect the gun industry from lawsuits arising from the criminal misuse of the products. The National Rifle Association calls the legislation (H.R. 800/S. 397) a "reckless lawsuit preemption bill" - a way of stopping agenda-driven efforts to bankrupt the gun industry by holding it responsible for the criminal acts of others. But the Brady Campaign calls the legislation an "immunity" bill that will "slam courthouse doors across the nation to the victims and survivors of gun crimes." The Brady Campaign has launched a print and television advertising campaign in an effort to block the legislation. "Senators, Err on the Side of Life," the print ad reads. "Don't make it easier for killers to get guns." In addition, the Brady Campaign said its network of Million Mom March chapters has organized a phone bank campaign to urge lawmakers to vote against the bill. The Brady Campaign also points to two former directors of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms who oppose the "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act." Former ATF Directors Stephen Higgins and Rex Davis served under Presidents Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr. and Clinton. They have expressed "grave concern" about the legislation because of language that they say threatens to block ATF administrative proceedings against gun dealers. Backers of the legislation note it does not shield gun makers from lawsuits arising from negligence or defective products. Copyright © 1998-2005 CNSNews.com - Cybercast News Service ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 12:21:53 -0600 (CST) From: "ross" Subject: What utter nonsense "McIsaac was unable to say whether or not there were firearms in the residence. The house was scheduled to be searched Tuesday evening by officers in East Division." SURELY THE Keystoners could just type up a search on the firearms registry to see if the demented person has firearms..Isnt that what the 2 billion and all the civil rights violations were for to find out this sort of info...Unless they dont have computers in Cape breton. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 12:59:43 -0600 (CST) From: 10x <10x@telus.net> Subject: Re: Cukier's latest opus. At 11:23 AM 4/6/05 -0600, you wrote: > > >Check out Cukier's latest opus, a website posted, by the look of it, on a >Ryerson University server. This website is called SAFER - Net, SAFER stands >for Small-arms/Firearms >Education Research Net. This site seems to be a compilation of Cukier's >writings published in various injury prevention and public health >newsletters. >The site includes the following quote: > >This site was created with the assistance of the Canadian Centre for >Foreign Policy: > >www/cfp-pec.gc.ca > >Does this mean that Cukier is getting more funding from the public >purse to promote herself and her mis-directed crusade to prohibit lawful gun >ownership in Canada and abroad? It is bad enough that the pre-existing >Coalition for Gun Control is propped up with public, including the gun >owning public's money. This very likely means that Ms Cuckier is getting money from the Foreign Affairs department as well as the Department of Justice. Just another non government organization..... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:20:39 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Gingrich Subject: Rising Tide of Jew-Hatred April 6, 2005 JPFO Alert: Rising Tide of Jew-Hatred A growing hatred of Jews is occurring both at home and abroad, the kind of hatred that led to gas chambers and the "final solution" in Nazi Germany. Rather than chanting the mantra, "It can't happen here!" Jews must be prepared to defend themselves against what can, indeed, happen here. JPFO Executive Director Aaron Zelman has written a powerful article entitled, "The Next Holocaust: One Spark Could Set Off a Hellish Conflagration" (www.jpfo.org/nextholocaust.htm) detailing the ominous trends of intolerance toward Jews. These trends are not limited to a few backwater bigots; universities, prisons, and other government institutions are gleefully partaking in the persecution. The Christian community is experiencing similar trends of intolerance as well. Aaron's previous article, "An Open Letter to My Christian Friends: When Your Faith is Threatened, You Are Threatened" (www.jpfo.org/christian- selfdefense.htm) documents the growing injustices experienced by those practicing the Christian faith. April 19 is the 62nd anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, in which a small number of Jews refused to remain passive victims, and defended themselves against the might of the German army. May 5 marks Yom Hashoa, which is Holocaust Memorial Day. And April 23 begins Passover, which marks the escape of the Jews from slavery and oppression at the hands of the Egyptians thousands of years ago. As these dates approach, Jews and others become more aware of and sensitive to the history of Jewish persecution. We encourage you to read these cautionary articles and share them with others in your community NOW. This is also a great time to pull out your copy of _Innocents Betrayed_ (www.innocentsbetrayed.com) and show it to friends, family, and acquaintances. Our federal government has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is either unwilling or unable to defend us against those who wish us harm. As violence and intolerance against the Judeo-Christian communities continues to increase, each of us must be prepared to defend our faith, our families, ourselves, and our freedom. - The Liberty Crew P.S. Don't forget that you can download our Uncle Sam "Defend Your Rights" poster in JPG or PDF format (www.jpfo.org). We encourage you to distribute it as widely as possible! =========================================================== JPFO mirror site: http://www.jpfo.net ================================================================ Original Material in JPFO ALERTS is Copyright 2005 JPFO, Inc. Permission is granted to reproduce this alert in full, so long as the following JPFO contact information is included: Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership PO Box 270143 Hartford, Wisconsin 53027 Phone: 1-262-673-9745 Order line: 1-800-869-1884 (toll-free!) Fax: 1-262-673-9746 Web: http://www.jpfo.org/ ======================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:01:59 -0600 (CST) From: Jason Hayes - HHC Subject: OT: News story on Stryker I don't really know anything about them, but I remember some folks were discussion the Stryker on the list a few months ago. Apparently some of the troops in Iraq like them, despite their flaws. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/story/297059p-254329c.html - -- Jason Hayes - Principal Hayes Holdings Consulting hh@hayz.ws / www.hayz.ws ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:33:06 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: PQ got kickbacks, too http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2005/04/06/984598-sun.html PQ got kickbacks, too EXEC: AD FIRM ALSO PAID GRITS By GREG WESTON, NATIONAL AFFAIRS COLUMNIST A MONTREAL advertising firm that received more than $40 million in AdScam sponsorship contracts paid huge kickbacks to both the federal Liberal party and the Quebec separatists, senior executives of the company have told Sun Media. "I remember seeing the cheques," one former Groupaction executive said of payments to the federal Liberal party in Quebec. The man spoke on condition that he not be identified until he testifies at the Gomery inquiry sometime over the coming weeks. The exec said the president of Groupaction, Jean Brault, made no secret around the company about where the kickback cash was going and for what. "He spoke to me about it ... having to pay money back to the Liberal Party" in return for contracts. ANTI-SEPARATISM CASH The $250 million in sponsorships that the previous Liberal government pumped into Quebec was supposed to help fight the separatists after the near-miss referendum in 1995. But another former Groupaction executive, Alain Renaud, said that while the firm was getting millions of dollars in federal sponsorship money, it was secretly cutting cheques to the separatist Parti Quebecois. Renaud said that in one transaction, a total of about $90,000 was given to the PQ as part of Groupaction's getting a $4.5-million advertising contract for the Quebec liquor board, called the SAQ. Groupaction apparently won the contract in a competition when a bagman for the Parti Quebecois had a meeting with the firm's top executives. One of those executives told Sun Media: "The bagman came by and said: 'Well, you won the bid, and all that's needed now is a signature, and the documents are on the minister's desk to be signed, and it's going to cost you fifty grand.' " Renaud recalled about $45,000 a year in donations were to be paid to the PQ for two years. The money was funnelled through individual Groupaction employees to circumvent Quebec law, which prohibits corporate political contributions. Renaud said Groupaction president Brault was personally involved in the tollgating deal. "I was there when he (Brault) was negotiating with the people of the PQ," he said. Brault's testimony at the Gomery inquiry over the past week is under a publication ban and cannot be reported. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:07:22 -0600 (CST) From: "Ed Sieb (E-mail)" Subject: RE: PQ got kickbacks, too Does anyone see the deeper political implications of this revelation? For years the Liberals have positioned themselves as defenders of "Canada" (admittedly an image of Canada they manufacured to be consistant with leftist dogma) and they will stand to the death against the ravages that the evil Americans and separtists intend to wreak on the peaceful kingdom. In reality they manufacured the threats and are keeping the real "threats" to Canada alive...funding separatists to make them (fed libs) appear to have a holy mission....it's absolute Machiavellian treachery. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:07:49 -0600 (CST) From: Vladyslav Strashko Subject: Re: Gun collector sues police forces for $4.25 million I hope he wins! Cops should go after criminals and not after "an easy target" which is law-abiding citizens. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:08:17 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: Breitkreuz, Assistant 1: PROGRESS REPORT #2 - FOUR WEEKS OUT Great news from my visit to my surgeon (Dr. Charles Agbi) yesterday!. When he opened me up on March 7th he found that only one disk (C7-T1) was causing all the problems so he didn't need to put in a titanium plate. He said the x-ray of my neck was good and that I could start weaning myself off the hard collar this week and should be able stop wearing the collar all together and drive my car by April 16th. He said I should start physio asap and that I could be as strenuous as I want (I started at 4:30 PM today and will go every day for as long as it takes to get my left arm ready for golf). He also said I could lift Hazel and that it wouldn't hurt my neck. I won't try that until this weekend maybe. At any rate, we've given Jody (our neice) notice that she can go back to Oshawa on April 16th too. Thank God for family. I have walked to work twice this week (25 minutes one way) already but I'm still only operating at about 1/4 speed at work. I took control (as if anyone has control) of my e-mails a couple of weeks ago. The amount of paperwork that has piled up in the last month is depressing but paperwork I will be handle now that all the pain is gone. All I need is time. Thanks for all your wishing, hoping and praying you did. It really paid big dividends. The e-mails, cards, phone calls all the special treats were great encouragment when I needed them most. Dennis PS Here is the report I have to my surgeon yesterday. He doesn't want to see me for three months now. PROGRESS REPORT #2 - FOUR WEEKS OUT SYMPTOMS BEFORE SURGERY (1) PAIN! Unbelievable pain under right shoulder blade, right triceps, forearm and hand. (2) Right hand, fingers and forearm numb, tingling and hypersensitive. (3) Immobile middle, ring and little finger. Impossible to type and a lot of trouble writing. (4) Very weak right arm - couldn't put my hat on a cupboard shelf. IMMEDIATE POSITIVE RESULTS (1) No pain at all in my neck, right arm and hand. A miracle really. (2) My fingers in my right hand can all move independently now. Seems to be some minor improvement in spreading my fingers. (3) No numbness or tingling in my right forearm. (4) Scar on my neck was a work of art and has healed completely. (5) I'm walking about 2 or 3 miles a day now. (6) Things I'm better at now: Clicking a mouse, combing my hair and brushing my teeth PROBLEMS (1) Scar on my left waste/hip is pretty ugly and still seems a bit swollen compared to my right side but there has been a vast improvement. (2) I have mild burning sensation in my left upper thigh (at the front) and a numb spot on my left hip (at the side). (3) My right hand is still very numb/hypersensitive and a little stiff feeling on the little finger side of my hand. It's best in the morning and gets progressively worse during the day. I still can't control my fingers well enough to type and handwriting is still poor and deteriorates quickly the longer I write. (4) My right arm (triceps, forearm and fingers) are still very weak; although it is about twice as strong as it was before the surgery. (5) When I extend my arms out in front of me my three fingers (middle, ring and little) droop down and I can't lift them at all. (6) My voice is still weak and hoarse but much improved over the last four weeks. I can't yell at the TV yet. (7) I'm still having a little trouble swallowing but I have noticed steady improvement. PROGNOSIS I must have reports of at least two dozen people that have had the same operation and I must say that all have been very positive. The best case scenario was that it will take months to recover the full use of my right arm and the worst case was three years. IF IT DOESN'T GET ANY BETTER I'M STILL WAY BETTER OFF THAN I WAS BEFORE THE OPERATION! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 19:59:08 -0600 (CST) From: Mark L Horstead Subject: Re: Breitkreuz, Assistant 1: PROGRESS REPORT #2 - --- Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 wrote: > > > Great news from my visit to my surgeon (Dr. Charles > Agbi) yesterday!. Good for you, Dennis. I'm very glad to hear this, and I hope that it's "best case". Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:13:09 -0600 (CST) From: Mark L Horstead Subject: Re: OT: News story on Stryker - --- Jason Hayes - HHC wrote: > > I don't really know anything about them, but I > remember some folks were > discussion the Stryker on the list a few months ago. It seems to depend upon who is talking - opinions differ widely and nobody seems neutral. The additional armour makes them top-heavy and they tend to roll easier. Most deaths appear to have been due to roll-overs. The additional armour is required because the vehicles are being used in conditions which nobody foresaw during the planning and procurement phase. Terrain is also a factor in people's opinions. There are areas where wheels are superior to tracks and vice versa. We use the same basic vehicle - known as the LAV (Light Armoured Vehicle) III - as our Infantry vehicle. In our case, though, it's all that we have whereas the Americans also have the Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicle in other units. That gives them a little more flexibility and they can, where possible, match units/vehicles to the conditions. The really bad thing, though, is the Mobile Gun System (MGS) version, with the 105 mm gun mounted on top. We are (being forced) to look at/adopt this as a tank replacement, which it is not, whereas the Americans, if they are indeed saddled with this, will still have thousands of tanks in other units. We cannot afford mistakes like these. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 22:00:47 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Gingrich Subject: armed citizen Westly Parkhurst, M.D., served nine months in Iraq, but it was only after returning home to Henryetta, Okla., that he found himself having to use deadly force. The physician stopped to help a woman who had been assaulted by her husband, Gary Wayne Britt. Though she asked to be driven to her mother's house, Parkhurst wisely drove to the police station after Britt twice rammed the doctor's car. Outside the police station Britt confronted Parkhurst and advance on him, despite Parkhurst's loaded .45 caliber handgun. Parkhurst fired two shots, both of which struck Britt, who was listed in stable condition at an area hospital. Parkhurst was not charged. (The Daily Oklahoman, Oklahoma City, OK, 01/12/05 nra ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:29:17 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Lowe Subject: What kind of rights Edward Hudson wrote: > Re: English Declaration of Rights > > You have me nailed down fairly tightly as I want to believe that our > country is run the way it "should" be, while reading every day that our > "leaders" are stealing us blind, and the judicial system seems > sometimes to be aiding and abetting them. I think there's a matter of perception here. We do not have a natural law system, and in my opinion we have never had a natural law system - including the day after the EBR was signed. Given that governments and courts practically since the signing of the EBR have consistently upheld the supremecy of parliament, the state of the law IS what it should be to remain consistent. Our problem is that we don't see that as how it SHOULD be or how we WANT it to be. Others, with other issues, feel the same way. You will notice, however, the vast majority of citizens of the Commonwealth don't seem to share our beliefs. > On the topic of unlicensed firearms ownership: > > My basic premies is that, as you suggest, John Locke provides the > underpinning of our society, and consequently we have an inalienable > right to defend ourselves. The problem is, John Locke DOES NOT provide the underpinning of our society. He was an influential philosopher, but he did not write any of the rights or constitutional documents you might be looking for. So nothing, in my view, can "consequently" come from John Locke - no matter how much we identify with his natural law views. > Secondly, the English Declaration of Rights recognizes this Right, and > the English Declaration of Rights has NOT been repealed, at least not > in Canada, and therefore we have a Right to "armes for their defense" You missed either end of the sentence: "That the subjects which are Protestants..." and "...suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law" Several things arise out of this. First, if you're not a Protestant, then you have no right to bear arms under this article, in any circumstances. This begs the question: how can something seriously be considered a right if it is conditional upon your religion, your sex, your job, or whatever? Seems rather inconsistent with any view of rights and freedoms based on the idea all men are created equal and with equal rights, don't you think? Second the parliaments of that time were made up of priviledged men for the most part. "as allowed by law" was not included in that sentence by accident. It was put in there to ensure that parliament could maintain control over who was allowed arms if and when they chose. The supremacy of parliament - not a higher power or calling - has been pretty much accepted in Commonwealth nations since then, although the Crown was reduced to a figurehead fairly quickly after that. Third, if the EBR is authoritive, it must be authoritive in its' entirety. We cannot say, "Well, this part here, we like this, so it DOES establish some constitutional rights, but this part here, we're not so crazy about so we'll ignore it". When you look at the EBR, you'll also see little gems like this: "all and every person and persons that is, are or shall be reconciled to or shall hold communion with the see or Church of Rome, or shall profess the popish religion, or shall marry a papist, shall be excluded and be for ever incapable to inherit, possess or enjoy the crown and government of this realm and Ireland and the dominions thereunto belonging" and: "at his or her coronation before such person or persons who shall administer the coronation oath to him or her at the time of his or her taking the said oath (which shall first happen), make, subscribe and audibly repeat the declaration mentioned in the statute made in the thirtieth year of the reign of King Charles the Second entitled, An Act for the more effectual preserving the king's person and government by disabling papists from sitting in either House of Parliament." So we have what we want to think of as a definitive bill of rights, and yet that Bill says Catholics cannot inherit, enjoy government benefits, or hold public office. Again, is a right that discriminates on the basis of which church you choose to attend actually a bill of rights? Should we be insisting that all Catholics be expelled from the House of Commons and Senate, as part of our demand that the EBR be respected? The EBR was a great step forward in its' day. But it doesn't do much for us in relation to this issue, at least in my view. > I would be deeply grateful for any assistance you could offer in > helping protect our Rights and Freedoms. I have extensively used your > critique of Dr Morton's essay on how the Firearms Act violates the > Charter. If you have other such articles, please point me in the proper > direction. I can't help you because I'm not aware of anything that favourable to us. Anyways, I Have to run. - -- "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." George Orwell ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V7 #953 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) If you find this service valuable, please consider making a tax-deductible donation to the freenet we use: Saskatoon Free-Net Assoc., P.O. Box 1342, Saskatoon SK S7K 3N9 Phone: (306) 382-7070 Home page: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/ These e-mail digests are free to everyone, and are made possible by the efforts of countless volunteers. Permission is granted to copy and distribute this digest as long as it not altered in any way.