From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V8 #204 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Saturday, July 9 2005 Volume 08 : Number 204 In this issue: Errant keystrokes and 'promises' Re: Liz Michael reasons for buying firearms and ammunition Re: It's time to retreat Campaign for Ignorance Re: anarchists moderator Snake Buffalo hunting Re: Terrorists Attack Guilty plea from armed robbers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:24:02 -0600 (CST) From: Lee Jasper Subject: Errant keystrokes and 'promises' I previously reported that Allan Rock had reaffirmed "lifetime grandfathering" in 1985 - when he did so in 1995. (He presumed the provinces recognize a good idea, would climb aboard and DID NOT mention that under the constitution's division of powers, the provinces would be free to 'play politics' with the FA and use whatever less liberal, punitive criteria or standard they chose). [It's not just the fed Libs who are trying to get your guns]. Factor in Jim Flaherty. Jim Flaherty is a former Ontario MLA, Cabinet min., Deputy Premier, two time provincial PC leadership candidate and a lawyer. He recently resigned his provincial seat and will be a CPC candidate in the next fed election. It was at the 2002 OFAH AGM that Jim Flaherty first detailed his plan to "grandfather" Ontario gun owners. He declared, that if elected PC leader: > I will fully implement Premier Harris's 1995 commitment that "no > provincial money, manpower or other resources" will be made available > to the federal government to help the Liberals implement "Bill > C-68," the federal Firearms Act. I will begin a process to extricate > the Ontario government from their current agreement with the federal > government that finds our implementing the licencing portion of the > Firearms Act. Need I remind Mr. Flaherty, that it was his former Premier Harris who happily agreed to provide Ontario resources, with a CFO staff that peaked at some 200 persons, to 'assist' the feds. And it was while Harris/Flaherty were in gov't that Ontario refused to respect the Rock 'grandfathering' provisions available via the FA. It was his gov't who allowed an 89% failure rate on an unnecessary, invalid CFO's test of gun owners applying for alternate certification. (Instead of using the early FAC - and Rock's 1995 free pass for all - criteria). The Harris PC's fully supported the 'safety provisions' of C-68. [Charter challengers wonder why they face provincial AND federal prosecutors? What 'certification screening' would be demanded by a CFO in a provincial Liberal or Red Tory gov't]? > Hundreds of thousands of Ontario hunters have already successfully > passed the Ontario Hunter Education Course and carry valid Ontario > Outdoors Cards. I do not see the need for the Ontario government to > be part of a process that forces Ontario hunters to pass another > firearms safety test and carry a second firearms licence required > under federal law. I was in the early crowd of firearm owners who applied for and received an early FAC (if my recollection is correct, it was required to obtain a Transport Permit and for gun purchases by 1979). No completion of the Hunter Safety course was required and I am certain that FACs of that era predated the Outdoors Card. Does anyone know when the Outdoors Card was initiated. What would a CFO demand in 2005 as a precursor to issuing an ATT? What fees would CFO's charge for an ATT for a target shooter or a trapper, Wilderness Permit, etc. - if the applicant was not already sanctified by a PAL? > Ontario residents who have successfully passed the Ontario Hunter > Education Training course and now hold a valid Ontario Outdoors Card > for hunting, or residents who now hold a valid federal firearms > Possession Only Licence (POL) will immediately be eligible to apply > for and receive a federal firearms Possession and Acquisition Licence > (PAL). The Chief Firearms Officer for Province of Ontario will > issue these PALs under a streamlined "Alternative Certification" > process. This will be similar to the "grandfathering" process that > was used by the Ontario Minister of Natural Resources in 1995 to > issue federal Firearms Acquisition Certificates; I presume Flaherty's people have confused the 1985 FAC criteria that was used for the 'mass grandfathering' of gun owners (the applicant simply owned a firearm) and the 1995 'grandfathering' or CFSC exemption criteria used by the Ontario CFO (not the Min. of Nat. Resources). [Contrary to popular belief, the CFO was also required to apply this same 1995 criteria in 1998]. You can lead the bean counters and policy wonks by the hand and the minute they're left to their own devices they start mucking around with words and language - - - and of course, not being knowledgeable gun owners, they don't know when they err. When these slights are pointed out the typical response is, "Be happy, we've fixed the problem for some of your people, so what if some were overlooked." [The old 'practical' politics at work]. Sounds like our current dilemma. Jim Flaherty gave the following undertaking during his 2004 leadership campaign: > Jim Flaherty is still committed to actively opposing Ontario's > involvement in the federal gun registry and to issuing PALs to > Ontario residents who have successfully completed the Ontario Hunter > Education Training course and have a valid Ontario Outdoors card for > hunting or Ontario residents who now hold a valid federal firearms > Possession Only Licence. You'll note that the estimated 400,000 'underground' gun owners, in Ontario, are ignored. Many of Rock's "all gun owners as of the introduction of C-68 will be grandfathered" has been tossed aside. What if one had a POL but as with many GOM had not completed the Hunter Safety course? And if one does not hunt or fish in Ontario, you would not have an Outdoors Card!! Apparently Flaherty's people could not understand that there are hordes of plinkers, paper punchers, competitive and recreational shooters plus farmers who zap the odd varmint, who don't hunt. The beauty of Rock's plan was to issue every applicant, the paper which would follow FACs. No exclusions. And then the provinces flexed their muscles. Just like they will again with any scheme emanating from Ottawa. Note: Jim Flaherty was the only PC, in both the 2002 and 2004 Ontario leadership campaigns, to offer 'anything' for Ontario's gun owners. He has recently been touted as CPC leadership material. He is well known in the 416 and 905, GTA area. On Feb. 19th, Stephen Harper stated in his address to the 2005 OFAH AGM that the Conservative Party would: - - "promote firearms safety training and a 'licensing' system for all those wishing to acquire and use firearms legally;" - - "produce a real registry - a registry of convicted criminals prohibited by the courts from owning firearms." (How much would this 'other' registry cost? Why not just use CPIC)? Harper also stated, "We will repeal the universal gun registry." The March 2005 CPC Policy statement #81 refers to "repealing Canada's costly gun registry legislation" and announces the introduction of "a 'certification' screening system for all those wishing to acquire firearms legally". [Why doesn't the policy state: repeal the Firearms Act or Ch. 39 of the Statutes of Canada]? In May 2005, Jay Hill told the Robson Valley Times, "Handguns would still need to be registered, but we would scrap the long gun registry," said Hill. "You can't go halfway on this thing, you can't maintain the registry that has happened, you scrap the whole thing." So which is it? What gets scrapped? And CPC House Leader Hill contradicts itself. [Further research suggests that the old RWRS files have been updated and included with, but maintained separately from, the long gun data in the CFRS]. I'm awaiting an answer about whether I (and all others affected) will get "grandfathered" for the 'screening certificate' needed to 'acquire legally' and what kind of 'certificate/licence' will be required by my CFO to obtain an ATT. Note: Re: PALs, POLs and FACs: According to the 2002 Registrar's Report, of 'licences' issued between Dec. 31/98 and Dec. 31/02 - there were 1,338,350 POLs, 564,096 PALs and 67,702 valid FACs in effect. Jan. 31/05 CFC data indicates there were 1,270,000 POLs, 721,000 PALs and 50 FACs. A Garry Breitkreuz Nov. 2002 ATIA request found that 35,142 PALs had been granted via alternate certification between Dec. 1/98 and Oct. 23/02. the 2003 Commissioner of Firearms Report indicates that 591 individuals were granted alt cert in 2003. From Dec. 1/98 to Dec. 31/03, it appears that 35,733 candidates were granted PALs via alternate certification through 2003. Be advised that correspondence from the fed Safety Min., former fed Justice Min., Ont. Safety Min., former Sol. Gen. and provincial CFO all state that Ontario's 'licencing' standard is an 'Ontario' decision, consistent with the language contained in the FA. Further evidence of this 'jurisdictional freedom' is the extent to which the various CFOs across Canada ignored the 1995 federal legislation and licencing guidelines and intents and adopted their own alt cert criteria, standards for aboriginal adaptations, varying PAL/POL standards, etc. It seems that all parties involved need to be consistent and to use the same phrases and terminology so we all clearly understand what is being promised. Lastly, any federal Party who proposes legislation requiring provincial involvement - without first ensuring provincial participation is assured - - is not being entirely forthright. After the common senseless revolution/get them g.d. Indians outta the Park, lyin Brian, federal Liebrals, McGuinty Fiberals and dithering Paul, the 'democratic deficit' slayer, the electorate (and the RFC) will pass on the double speak. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 22:26:37 -0600 (CST) From: Christopher di Armani Subject: Re: Liz Michael At 10:02 AM 2005.07.05, you wrote: >Is this person credible ?? > >Sincerely, >Eduardo Yes, very. She's been "in the game" one hell of a long time. She's written books, articles, etc in support of the 2nd Amendment, and if you go through her website (www.lizmichael.com), you'll see she's tried to go the political route for ages. Her last attempt was to have Senator McCain removed from office because of his anti-gun stance. I've had a lot of respect for Liz Michael for a long time. Yours in Liberty, Christopher di Armani christopher@diArmani.com Our poison-tipped pens are greater than the mightiest of swords - diArmani.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:20:16 -0600 (CST) From: kim barbeau Subject: reasons for buying firearms and ammunition >Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:14:09 -0600 (CST) >From: "ross" >Subject: Good reason natives bought Norinco 305 > >"They're very mean and tough to put down," he said, noting one animal was >shot "square in the head" with a .30-30 hunting rifle. > > >I would guess that since the natives are shooting bison with 30-30 and it >isnt stopping them, the 308 in the chinese M-14 knockoff makes a bit more >sense now doesnt it. So the bulk firearm purchase and ammo purchase is >quite justifiable now it would seem if a person has passed the tests and jumped through the hoops there should be no restrictions on amounts of firearms and ammunition they can buy or possess. There is no need to JUSTIFY the purchase. I buy ammo for my pistol 5000 rounds at a time :) Kim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:10:43 -0600 (CST) From: "Gordon Butler" Subject: Re: It's time to retreat - ----- Original Message ----- From: "paul chicoine" [Edited to add] > Ruth Ilyse > Westmount Who is this guy? Is he for real? Retrat, and pay for the same ground twice? Let them win? Has history taught that man NOTHING? [Moderator's Note: Please make sure that you get your attributions right. Ruth Ilyse wrote the letter, paul just posted it. BNM] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:14:21 -0600 (CST) From: "Jim S." Subject: Campaign for Ignorance David - >> "If teachers want to move out from the region, we cannot stop them," Mr >> Adisai told reporters. > > It is all part of the plan. Ignorance is a necessary prerequisite for the > spread of Islam hence the move against teachers. The same sort of thing > was > seen in Cambodia under Pol Pot wasn't it? A campaign for public ignorance is being carried out in many schools districts in Canada and the U.S. by various non-Islamic groups. Two or three years ago, (if I recall correctly) in Nova Scotia, the teacher's union threatened a strike over a change in the curriculum which would require the teaching of one full year course in Canadian history to high school students (who were completing high school without ever learning Canadian history). The union was protesting AGAINST this move. I did not hear the resolution of that one. I've not heard of a more insidious effort at social engineering in Canada. One exchange student that we hosted from Quebec, a number of years ago, argued in favor of the need for Quebec independence, as her teachers had "explained" that Quebec was supporting the rest of the country through a "Canada" Income Tax. They told her that if Quebec separated from Canada, there would only be a Quebec portion of the tax. She was disgusted that Quebec had to support Canada through a special tax. She had no concept of transfer payments, or how much Quebec benefited from money flowing into the province via Federal Government spending. Is it any wonder that the support for separation is so high? In the U.S., some number of states now require the teaching, in science classes, of "Intelligent Design" (Creationism) as an alternate to Evolution. If this does not set alarm bells off over the path that the U.S. is taking, then nothing will. And, of course, with the U.S. deficit so high, the Government wants to cut back on education spending to "help balance the budget". There are groups seeking power in many countries that benefit from an uninformed population. Watch out for any group that wants to limit or skew the way that information is presented. Jim Szpajcher St. Paul, AB ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:18:02 -0600 (CST) From: Bill Farion Subject: Re: anarchists Hi; Had a handbook on kitchen explosives. Analysis was that most of them were quite dodgy! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:18:22 -0600 (CST) From: "ross" Subject: moderator It appears that this digest cannot handle the large file that encompasses the bylaws that I have drafted. Any suggestions on how to get this "out there" [Moderator's Note: I already recommended putting it up on a website, and posting a link to it. BNM] NO DISRESPECT MEANT...i just dont know of any website to put this stuff on.or how to do it..I need help with this. john ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:27:58 -0600 (CST) From: "ross" Subject: Snake In the wild, California King snakes often eat other snakes, including venomous ones. They kill their prey by looping around their victim and squeezing. Although they aren't poisonous, the snakes can be aggressive if provoked. (Apparently the snake was less than 'co-operative' when the terrified parents removed it from the infant. It was shown on the TV news. It has since been returned to the neighbour from whom it had escaped. Huhhh?). ANYONE WITH HALF A LIBERAL brain can see the opportunity here to register all snakes, so that they can be tracked to their original owners. A snake registry is a must, with poisonoius snakes being put on a prohibited lost, constrictors on a restricted lost amd just big old ugly snakes requiring a sticvky for Id. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:29:17 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Lowe Subject: Buffalo hunting Lee Jasper wrote: > Isn't a .30-.30 kind of light for bison? Good thing they weren't using > 'primitive' hunting tools. Well, it wouldn't be most people's first choice. On the other hand, an aweful lot of buffalo were killed by cartridges of the day which had less power than the 30/30. The hunters of that day didn't have our concern with quick, clean kills. If they shot a buffalo and it ran off, they just shot another one. Teddy Rooseveldt was probably the start of public conservation and ethics issues, and that was well past the time of the buffalo. Heavily skulled animals will sometime cause bullets to deflect, especially when bullets hit at an acute angle. But when you look at the numbers of cattle slaughtered by the lowly .22 rimfire over the years, I'll take anybody's money who wants to bet a 30/30 will bounce off a buffalo's skull. - -- "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." George Orwell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:29:44 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Lowe Subject: Re: Terrorists Attack R_LaCasse wrote: > The Astounding fact that is has never changed in these foreign > Terrorists Attacks, is that there is never an Army or police force injured > or even close to the events... Speaking of your "astounding facts" Bob... Was the USS Cole a military vessel or a cruise liner? And is the Pentagon primarily occupied by military personnel or the members of a local golf club? How many police died running INTO the twin towers in an attempt to save lives after the bombing while the survivors which could were running out? I think your "astounding facts" need a little help. > They keep on Blaming Bin Laden and other groups, for these Terrorists > Attack matters, but even the Terrorists know that there is no profit or > accomplishment for blowing up non key position people. Let's see... in the West the people vote in the governments they want, and those governments in turn create foreign and domestic policy. When comparing who holds the votes which determine who forms government, what is the percentage of votes held by ordinary people as compared to "key position" people. 10,000/1 - or more - perhaps? From my point of view, the terrorists have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams with the targets they have selected. Looks to me like we're falling all over ourselves to insist that government reduce our freedoms. > never present in all foreign assaults by the scapegoated Bin Laden types... Okay, I'll ask the question I'm sure many others want to ask. As you apparently have inside knowledge that Bin Laden and Al-Queda are not responsible for the USS Cole, the 9/11 attacks, etc... then... ... just who IS responsible. Martians? The CIA? While you're at it, who killed Kennedy? - -- "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." George Orwell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:31:03 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: Guilty plea from armed robbers http://www.northpeel.com/br/news/story/2901777p-3361480c.html Guilty plea from armed robbers PAM DOUGLAS, Staff Writer Brampton Guardian A retired truck driver and a private investigator pleaded guilty yesterday to breaking into a Brampton bank, handcuffing an employee and ambushing two armed guards when they arrived to refill the ATM. The bag of cash the bandits stole-- which contained $222,500-- has never been recovered. Charles Dillon, 67, a retired truck driver and the father of three grown children, was sentenced to five years in prison for the Nov. 27, 2001, robbery at the Royal Bank at Bramalea and Orenda Roads. David Stachula, 36, a private investigator from Montreal who had previously worked as an armoured car guard, was sentenced to three years for conspiracy to commit robbery. He admitted waiting in a stolen getaway van while Dillon and another man broke into the bank. The case against a third convicted bank robber-- Paul Bryntwick, 57-- was "not strong", according to Crown Attorney David King, and charges against him were dropped in court yesterday. Bryntwick was arrested with Dillon and Stachula, armed with an AK47, masked, and hiding in an Aurora CIBC, one year after the Brampton heist. All three pleaded guilty to that robbery and are currently serving prison terms. Bryntwick and Dillon have served two of their seven-year sentences while Stachula, again the getaway van driver, has served two of a five-year sentence for that robbery. Court heard Account Manager Janie Frank was working late at the Brampton bank when the men broke in at approximately 8:40 p.m. Dillon had a handgun, his accomplice an AK47 assault rifle, and both wore balaclavas. They forced Frank at gunpoint to the bank's basement where she was ordered to the floor and handcuffed to a water pipe. "They told me to get down on the basement floor and I thought they were going to kill me," Frank said in a videotaped victim impact statement played to the court yesterday. She wept as she recalled sitting on a sewer grate for almost 30 minutes until she heard the sounds of the robbery upstairs. She wept harder when she revealed she only recently found out that two 10-year-old children had been confronted by the robbers and ordered to the floor at gunpoint. "The kids could have been injured in this," she said. "They (the robbers) treated it like it was a job and people didn't matter." The kids walked in with their mothers, who worked as cleaners for the bank. The women and children arrived at about the same time as the Universal ATM armoured car guards. All were ordered to the floor, the guards' guns were removed and the money taken. Frank said police responding to the robbery released her from the basement. Since then, her family and career have suffered, she said, describing feelings of frustration, fear and depression. She was one of the top producers at her job and has worked for the bank for more than 30 years. Now, "I know I will never receive another promotion." "I now just do an average job," she said. "My doctor said I'm working at 75 to 80 per cent of my capacity and ability. He says that's just the way it will probably be." She tried to return to her job at the bank, saying it was important to her to be able to do that, but customers and co-workers would cry when they talked to her, and she could not continue. She had to change jobs to a "safer working environment" at the bank's corporate office. Frank was in court for the sentencing. She cried and hugged Det. Bill McGarry and Sgt. Todd Moore, thanking them for their work on the case. Robberies were done by 'pros' Police said at the time the robberies were the mark of "professionals" who planned the robberies carefully. They were well-armed, "surveillance-conscious", used police scanners and they did "dry runs" to and from the banks before choosing an escape route. A post-arrest search of two vehicles, Dillon's home and an Oakville hotel room where Bryntwick and Stachula were registered produced a sawed-off shotgun, a Ruger pistol, two more handguns with an assortment of ammunition, a stungun, a money-counting machine and two silencers. After a dogged investigation by Peel police, Dillon became a suspect in the Brampton heist. They put him under surveillance and he led them to the CIBC in Aurora. Dillon and Bryntwick broke into the bank while Stachula waited outside in a stolen van. Officers re-routed an armoured car that was enroute to the bank and surrounded the building, arresting Stachula outside, Dillon and Bryntwick armed and masked inside. Madame Justice Seppi made a compensation order in the full amount to be paid to Universal ATM, but police say they don't know where the money went. Dillon was living in a rented townhouse in Oakville at the time of his arrest. He was not leading an affluent life, but police said he liked to gamble. Stachula, who has a wife and 7-year-old child, had no previous criminal record, court heard. Dillon and Bryntwick have previous robbery convictions. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V8 #204 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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