From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V8 #252 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Monday, July 25 2005 Volume 08 : Number 252 In this issue: Re: Mission staement Re: Mission staement Re: "Too American" Re: Mission staement Apologies and CFEI Re: Apologies and CFEI God Mission Statement - something like this? Re: God Re: ID Crime-hit Brazil split over possible gun sales ban Re: Apologies and CFEI God The police marksman's dilemma Re: My letter to the Edmonton Journal Re: God Re: God Re: Mission Statement - something like this? Quebec London wag and wisdom... What kind of group are we? Wally Bauman Editorial: throwing good money after bad at things that don't work ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:38:09 -0600 (CST) From: "mred" Subject: Re: Mission staement - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Mills" To: Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 2:32 PM Subject: Re: Mission staement > ----- Original Message ----- > From: mred > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 2:26 PM > Subject: Re: Mission staement > >> This sounds good? but how many would NOT support our efforts if a deity >> was >> not invoked ? Can we REALLY afford to p**-off so many people when we`re >> trying to make a statement?....ed/ontario > > Really, who's actually going to say "Holy crap, they didn't mention the > Deity in their Mission > Statement! No way am I going to support *those* scumbags!"? > > In my opinion, out of sight is out of mind. It doesn't really advance our > cause, so there's no need > for it. Well youd be surprised how many people believe and wouldnt support an organization without it ? ed/ontario ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:44:02 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: Re: Mission staement - ----- Original Message ----- From: mred > Well youd be surprised how many people believe and wouldnt support an > organization without it ? > ed/ontario I still say it's pandering, just like the liberals do. You can't justify the defence of one right, while infringing upon another. Yours in Liberty, Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:44:28 -0600 (CST) From: Edward Hudson Subject: Re: "Too American" On 2005 Jul 24, at 11:18 AM, Bruce Mills wrote: > Despite this, I still think that "the right to keep and bear arms" > says what we want to say in the > most direct and relatable fashion. If there is a better term to > describe this, you'd think they'd > have come up with it in 230-odd years... I think we need a "Made in Canada" slogan. Let the Americans use RKBA. Let the Brits have "Firearms Only for Police and the Military." Let us find that Canadian "compromise" (without compromising the basic principle of NO licence) which so uniquely distinguishes Canadians. We certainly have the intellectual power here on the Digest to do this in an acceptable period of time. Let us come up with our own CANADIAN term, eh. Sincerely, Eduardo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:10:04 -0600 (CST) From: "mred" Subject: Re: Mission staement - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Mills" To: Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 2:44 PM Subject: Re: Mission staement > ----- Original Message ----- > From: mred > >> Well youd be surprised how many people believe and wouldnt support an >> organization without it ? >> ed/ontario > > I still say it's pandering, just like the liberals do. You can't justify > the defence of one right, > while infringing upon another. I think we`ll never agree on this item but I still say whatever it takes do it ...ed/ontario ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:10:44 -0600 (CST) From: Linda FreefallCrusader Subject: Apologies and CFEI My apologies to all regarding some of my emails. I'm not sure what is happening, but it's not as simple as sending in text, because that IS what I am supposed to be sending in (there is an option to switch between text and html and I always use text). Also, some appear okay and others don't, even though I'm doing the same thing. Right now I am using Shaw "Webmail" (ie: online) and not downloading and using my normal Eudora. As for 'God' in the mission statement - as Bruce and others say, it is not necessary. But the mission statement "MUST" give people an idea of what you are all about, what your purpose is, what your goals are. It can be more than one single statement, but should be limited, brief, and to the point. It IS what is going to pull others in to the organization. Bylaws and Constitution won't pull them in. JMO Linda ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:54:44 -0600 (CST) From: "mred" Subject: Re: Apologies and CFEI - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda FreefallCrusader" To: Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 3:10 PM Subject: Apologies and CFEI > As for 'God' in the mission statement - as Bruce and others say, it is not > necessary. But the > mission statement "MUST" give people an idea of what you are all about, > what your purpose is, what > your goals are. It can be more than one single statement, but should be > limited, brief, and to the > point. It IS what is going to pull others in to the organization. Bylaws > and Constitution won't > pull them in. > > JMO > Linda My last opinion on this item: We are at war, whether we like it or not , not with guns , bullets and bombs but with words and ideas. The end justifies the means, The old saying: "all is fair in love and war ", applys. It may not be neccessary for us to mention the Deity, but rest assured it DOES mean a lot to millions of those we wish to engage on our side in the coming struggle for freedom . For some it is a small thing but for others it gives them direction......we must recruit all we can regardless of the methods. If we have to act like Liberals ? then so be it , fight fire with fire I say.Give them a taste of their own medicine. ed/ontario ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:01:30 -0600 (CST) From: "Clive Edwards" Subject: God Bruce Mills said: "No Creator. No Divinity. No God. Nobody's. None. Why drag Her into this? She's not going to win this fight for us..." Since the first humans gazed at the heavens we have had a sense of God. Even Einstein believed the universe was created by God. Human misery for the most part is visited upon us by men - in centuries past by Kings and more recently by parliaments (and here I include the most dispicable breed of men - Communists). In order to violate human freedom it is necessary to deny the Grace of God. The communists deny the existance of God. Adherants of most "organized" religions have at one time or another denied the humanity of non-believers. These problems do not stem from the concept of God, but from the machinations of man trying to justify his inhumanity. One does not need a contract with God for the relationship to exist. One does, however, need a contract for any inter-human relationships to exist (implied contracts are recognized in law). If a contract exists it can be broken, revoked, voided, violated, twisted - as most governments and many interpersonal relationships are. Murder and genocide are the acts of men. Genocide, by definition, is a legal act. It is an act of government. Without God, morality does not exist. Morality can never be a "living document". Without morality there can be no lens through which evil may be revealed. Without the concept of "God" the concept of "freedom" has no basis, no reference point. Without God we are, as the saying goes, "meat puppets". Clive Edwards ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:09:07 -0600 (CST) From: "M.J. Ackermann, MD" Subject: Mission Statement - something like this? "The CFEI recognizes that fundamental human Rights are essential, timeless, and universal: these Rights exists as a necessary natural consequence of being human. No government grants these Rights nor can any government extinguish them. Rather, Governments can only acknowledge or, as is most often the case, deny them but regardless of this, the Rights continue none-the-less to exist. In this regard they are inalienable. The CFEI believes that these fundamental Rights include the Rights to Life, Self-Determination, and the Ownership of Personal Property. It is the undeniable Right and Duty of each individual to defend their own Life, Freedom, and Property from those who would unethically or unlawfully deprive them of these Rights. It is also each person's Right to use whatever tools or techniques they may require under the circumstances to effect this protection. To this end, the individual Right to own and use firearms is the ultimate guarantor of all the other Rights. While keeping the foregoing always firmly in mind, the CFEI shall vigorously act to defend the Right of all Canadians to responsibly own and use firearms in recreation, competition, and defense of self, family, property, and country." - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) Rural Family Physician, Sherbrooke, NS Secretary, St. Mary's Shooters Association Member All For Horses Association, Nova Scotia Equestrian Federation Box 13, 120 Cameron Rd. Sherbrooke, NS Canada B0J 3C0 902-522-2172 My email: mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca My Bio: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mikeack/mikeack.htm SMSA URL: www.smsa.ca "Hope for the best, but plan for the worst". ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:14:49 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: Re: God - ----- Original Message ----- From: Clive Edwards > Without God, morality does not exist. Morality can never be a "living > document". Without morality there can be no lens through which evil may be > revealed. Without the concept of "God" the concept of "freedom" has no > basis, no reference point. Without God we are, as the saying goes, "meat > puppets". Sorry, Clive, I don't need to speak to "God" to know that freedom is good, and that tyranny and enslavement is evil. I don't need "God" to be a good and ethical person. "Morality" is just a club used by religions to cow the unthinking masses into submission, and to demonize anyone who disagrees with their particular version of what is "moral". Yours in Liberty, Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:50:47 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Subject: Re: ID Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:26:25 -0600 (CST) From: David Jordan Subject: Re: Re: ID - - ----- Original Message ----- From: Trigger Mortis >You actually can be a passenger in a car and refuse to identify yourself. Yeah, ok. Sounds really good doesn't it. There is what is written in the uh, Law and then there's what happens in the real World. You try and pull that one on a cop and then you tell me what "really happens to you after that", ok. nuff said - - -DRGJ - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------ David, Let's say I am a passenger in the car your to which you are referring. The police officer asks me my name. I ask him/her if I am being arrested or detained? The police officer says no. I then say that I prefer not to disclose my name to him/her because there is no law which requires me to do so. What will now happen to me in the real world? I have "pulled" this one on the cop, what will "really" happen to me? Not nuff said. Yours in Tyranny, Joe Gingrich White Fox, Sask. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:55:41 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Subject: Crime-hit Brazil split over possible gun sales ban http://www.rednova.com/news/health/180797/crimehit_brazil_split_over_possible_gun_sales_ban/Crime-hi t Brazil split over possible gun sales banBy Andrei KhalipRIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (Reuters) - Rio de Janeiro taxi driver Luiz Marcelois normally mild mannered, but he loses his temper when Brazil's upcomingreferendum on whether gun sales should be banned comes up in a conversation."All you see around us in the streets is crime, and the best they can thinkof is to disarm honest citizens like me and you," the 5 0-year-old almostshouts. "I have a gun at home and another one in this car and I'm not givingthem up."Many Brazilians share this view, saying the state does not give its peopleadequate protection from violent crime and they need guns for self defense.But others are afraid of having guns at home and don't like the idea ofarmed citizens walking the streets.There are no nationwide opinion polls projecting the outcome of thereferendum on Oct. 23 to ban gun and ammunition sales. But som ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:12:28 -0600 (CST) From: David Jordan Subject: Re: Apologies and CFEI Hi Linda; Yeah, I've had the same problem as well. What I found is, [and only Billy "Megabucks" Gates knows for sure-MAYBE!], that if you copy a story, then convert it to "Plain Text" as you're supposed to and you don't add anything else, everything will turn out fine. BUT! [And there's always a butt somewhere!], if you then add any additional comment or anything, for some strange inexplicable reason the entire article, or maybe only the part that you add as an after thought, or comment, will automatically revert to HTML! Even if you try and hit the convert to "Plain Text" command again it just will not take! [Been there, tried that.] Soooooooo, what you have to do is "Save" your work as a "Draft" first. Then go to your draft folder and open the draft message and then choose the "Convert to Plain Text command" in the drop-down menu to convert the message again and then send it. Don't try and make any revisions unless you want to go through the entire exercise again. Does it make logical sense, well, in a Bill $$$$$$ Gates kinda way I guess that it does? At least to "MinnowSoft"????? All I know is that this works with 98SE2/XP IE-6Sp2 in Outlook Express. I don't know anything about Eudora. Sorry. Hope that you find that this cures your problem. Later-DRGJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:12:59 -0600 (CST) From: "Chris Gilmore" Subject: God Thanks Clive I agree with your thoughts on God. I also respect other's rights not to believe in God BUT in this case I think it would be safe to say a majority of people on this earth today believe there is a God whether or not they belong to any religion. Majority rules in democracy and God should be included in our constitution. Personally I have found that in 47 years of including God in my life have been the best. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:18:01 -0600 (CST) From: Linda FreefallCrusader Subject: The police marksman's dilemma I'm only sending an excerpt of this one and the URL. Hopefully this program will not add all the html marks. Linda ===== The police marksman's dilemma By Chris Summers BBC News Sun, 24 Jul 2005 1:33 AM PDT BBC News looks at the controversy surrounding police shootings in the wake of the mistaken killing of Jean Charles de Menezes. EXCERPT: Most police forces in the UK supply their firearms units with rules of engagement based on guidelines from the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) These state that they: * Must identify themselves and declare intent to fire (unless this risks serious harm). * Should aim for the biggest target (the torso) to incapacitate and for greater accuracy. * Should reassess the situation after each shot. - --- Former Scotland Yard commander Roy Ramm told the BBC: "Generally speaking police officers have been taught to aim at the largest target on the body, which is the torso and that has worked well. "People have died but others - robbers and drug dealers - have lived. "The problem with the police continuing with that strategy is that if a round enters the body of a suicide bomber it could detonate the charge, probably killing the person wearing it, the police officers and anyone else who is close to the suspect. "That leaves no option for the police but to take head shots. Almost invariably a shot to the head will kill. In a sense it is a shoot-to-kill policy, but by practice rather than design." But the death of Mr. Menezes shows the tragic consequences which can lead from such a policy and there may now have to be a rethink by Scotland Yard. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711619.stm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:18:25 -0600 (CST) From: vampire@istar.ca Subject: Re: My letter to the Edmonton Journal I think they are just conjecturing like their stats Canada and various census reports they extort from us. It would be likely at this point that they should settle for a cock print, preferably between their lips, or a vague RNA, that would be as useless to them as the CFRO still is and always will be. Canuckistan Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:19:07 -0600 (CST) From: "mred" Subject: Re: God - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clive Edwards" > Without God, morality does not exist. Morality can never be a "living > document". Without morality there can be no lens through which evil may > be > revealed. Without the concept of "God" the concept of "freedom" has no > basis, no reference point. Without God we are, as the saying goes, "meat > puppets". > > Clive Edwards Well said!!!!!!!!!!! the old concept of ying and yang ...good and evil ed/ontario ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:19:43 -0600 (CST) From: "mred" Subject: Re: God - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Mills" To: Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 10:14 PM Subject: Re: God > Sorry, Clive, I don't need to speak to "God" to know that freedom is good, > and that tyranny and > enslavement is evil. I don't need "God" to be a good and ethical person. > "Morality" is just a club > used by religions to cow the unthinking masses into submission, and to > demonize anyone who disagrees > with their particular version of what is "moral". In my opinion? moral is doing things without harm to another human being, regardless of what they may be.But I still believe in a Supreme Being.So what Bush and Blair have done In Iraq is as immoral as what any world dictator does or has done . By the way Im not affiliated with any particular religion . ed/ontario ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:20:14 -0600 (CST) From: "mred" Subject: Re: Mission Statement - something like this? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "M.J. Ackermann, MD" To: Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 10:09 PM Subject: Mission Statement - something like this? > "The CFEI recognizes that fundamental human Rights are essential, > timeless, and universal: these Rights exists as a necessary natural > consequence of being human. No government grants these Rights nor can > any government extinguish them. Rather, Governments can only acknowledge > or, as is most often the case, deny them but regardless of this, the > Rights continue none-the-less to exist. In this regard they are > inalienable. > > The CFEI believes that these fundamental Rights include the Rights to > Life, Self-Determination, and the Ownership of Personal Property. It is > the undeniable Right and Duty of each individual to defend their own > Life, Freedom, and Property from those who would unethically or > unlawfully deprive them of these Rights. It is also each person's Right > to use whatever tools or techniques they may require under the > circumstances to effect this protection. To this end, the individual > Right to own and use firearms is the ultimate guarantor of all the > other Rights. > > While keeping the foregoing always firmly in mind, the CFEI shall > vigorously act to defend the Right of all Canadians to responsibly own > and use firearms in recreation, competition, and defense of self, > family, property, and country." I like this entry but the multiple mention of firearms will turn many in our society off . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:20:44 -0600 (CST) From: Bill Farion Subject: Quebec Hi; The Canada Gazzette was quoted in N. Waughs column a couple days ago. If Dion is an MP from Quebec then he is just as responsible as any voter in Ontario. And most of the corruption uncovered by Gomery was in Quebec. As well, Quebec expects to get most of the Kyoto subidies, as was usual in any pork in the past. Bombardier comes to mind! >could you submit the link to this story > >Did the government of Quebec bring this about or was it just a federal >minister, Dion? > >If it was just Dion then what does Quebec have to do with it? > >If its a move by the Liberal party then blame the Ontario voters who keep >putting the liberals back into power. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:21:07 -0600 (CST) From: "Jim S." Subject: London wag and wisdom... Ross - > YES INDEED ROUGH men stand ready to visit violence upon those who would > harm us, ...and the inncoent too!. > > I can see major lawsuits on this, but as one London wag put it. Better > safe > than sorry. Better he be dead than 50 killed with a bomb If the police kill us all, one at a time, in the name of "freedom", what is the difference between them and the "bad guys" who kill 50 at a time? I'd wager that London wag would not volunteer to trade places with the fellow who was shot so cavalierly by plaincolthes policemen. Jim Szpajcher St. Paul, AB ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:21:37 -0600 (CST) From: "Jim S." Subject: What kind of group are we? Bruce - > I don't need to speak to "God" to know that freedom is good, and that > tyranny and > enslavement is evil. I don't need "God" to be a good and ethical person. I think this is an important point. Once one brings God/s into the debate about morality, the question then devolves into _whose_ God/s, and that leads down the slippery slope down into a bog of disagreement. We are, after all, discussing a group of firearms owners, not forming a church. I can't see where one's God/s would object whether His/Her/Their name was included, if one followed His/Her/Their principles as a member of the group. Jim Szpajcher St. Paul, AB ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:22:00 -0600 (CST) From: "ross" Subject: Wally Bauman Recently there was a note on the digest asking if wally bauman was looking for a carreer change, or if he was being hustled out of his position. HE IS BEING HUSTLED OUT. If you want to have the same level of co-operation as we have had with his office, start sending your letters now..tommorrow may be too late..move NOW! start writting ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: Editorial: throwing good money after bad at things that don't work PUBLICATION: The Edmonton Sun DATE: 2005.07.25 EDITION: Final SECTION: Editorial/Opinion PAGE: 10 COLUMN: Editorial - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ HOUSE OF CARDS - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The house of cards that is the Kyoto protocol has already begun tumbling down. Former prime minister Jean Chretien surprised his own officials a few years ago by agreeing to ratify the controversial international agreement that requires Canada to lower its so-called greenhouse gas emissions to 6% below 1990 levels by 2012. The Liberals and government bureaucrats have been tripping all over themselves ever since to come up with a plan to meet what most experts acknowledge is an unattainable goal. Incoherent mutterings from Prime Minister Paul Martin and Environment Minister Stephane Dion about Canada's so-called "plan" have made it clear how badly the Liberals are stumbling around in the dark. Now, we learn a team of officials working on a key part of the Kyoto plan - emissions trading - has been decimated by resignations. Almost half the team working on a national emissions trading system has quit rather than transfer to Environment Canada from the Department of Natural Resources, according to officials. The exodus has prompted the Sierra Club to complain that the government doesn't have the staff expertise to handle Kyoto implementation. Not only that, according to a Canadian Press report last week, some officials are privately taking potshots at the plan as a fiction filled with soft numbers and wishful thinking. The conservationists aren't the only skeptics. Business groups are also complaining of a lack of solid information about the "plan" published in the Canada Gazette two weekends ago. Despite assurances by Martin that Kyoto won't damage our economy, some critics say companies and consumers will pay through the nose to implement the scheme. John Williamson of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation says a decision to punish big greenhouse gas emitters with hefty fines is the equivalent of a carbon tax. Those penalties will be passed on to consumers in the form of higher gas and electric bills. Sadly, even as this house of cards shows signs of imminent collapse, the Liberals continue to plot for the sake of political expediency. Sadder still, it looks like Canadians will foot the bill for this dubious experiment based on even more dubious science. How long is it going to take until the Liberals realize that implementing a bogus treaty that won't do a thing to reduce global greenhouse gas emissions and has all sorts of potential to harm our economy is just a really, really bad idea? Oh, wait, that's right. They're Liberals. They never give up on failed projects - just take a look at the boondoggle of a gun registry. They just keep throwing good money after bad at things that don't work. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V8 #252 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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