From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V8 #313 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, August 9 2005 Volume 08 : Number 313 In this issue: EDITORIAL: MILLER'S STILL OFF TARGET COLUMN: LA-LA LAND SOLUTIONS WITH GUN MURDERS MOUNTING Re: charges of possessing an unlicensed firearm, and unsafe Re: COLUMN: LA-LA LAND SOLUTIONS WITH GUN MURDERS MOUNTING Re: EDITORIAL: MILLER'S STILL OFF TARGET [LETTER] Response should be extreme [LETTER] Hound criminals off the streets [LETTER] Time for mayor to aid all citizens [LETTER] How will courts deal with charges? Gunnutz Down? Re: Gunnutz Down? It's time to talk real solutions re: What Re: [LETTER] Hound criminals off the streets ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 07:55:59 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: EDITORIAL: MILLER'S STILL OFF TARGET PUBLICATION: The Toronto Sun DATE: 2005.08.09 EDITION: Final SECTION: Editorial/Opinion PAGE: 18 WORD COUNT: 405 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MILLER'S STILL OFF TARGET - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MAYOR DAVID Miller got one thing right yesterday at his bizarre "Toronto is a safe city" press conference -- prompted by yet another weekend of gun murders. He finally admitted it's not good enough to merely cite statistics -- as his left-leaning supporters so often do -- purportedly showing "crime is down." "That doesn't satisfy a shooting victim or his or her family," Miller said, Police Chief Bill Blair at his side. Exactly! Now, would someone please tell Miller that task forces, social programs and pointing fingers at U.S. gun laws won't satisfy families ravaged by gun crime either? Nor will taking a kick at the left's favourite all-purpose bogeyman, former Conservative premier Mike Harris. Yes, as Christina Blizzard notes, opposite, Miller actually found a way to implicate Harris in the current crisis, saying his regime "dismantled" some neighbourhood programs. Unbelievable! Yet this kind of talk has been Miller's approach to crime ever since early 2004 -- when a string of gang-gun murders shook the city and innocent people were being caught in the crossfire. Sound familiar? Miller formed a task force then to study community solutions to the problem. Yesterday, the provincial NDP was calling for another one. And the shooting continues. In one of the weekend shootings, a stray bullet even blasted into a nearby bedroom window, barely missing a couple as they slept. As Miller well knows, statistics and studies can be used to prove all kinds of things. For instance, 27 of the city's 64 murders last year were done with guns -- while this year, we have already had 28 gun murders out of 42 slayings so far. That would indicate gun murders are way, way up. Meantime, CITY-TV reported that 14 of the last 20 murders (before last weekend) occurred on Toronto public housing property. A sign that poverty and limited social services are factors? Perhaps, though they don't cause crime. Look, we have nothing against good community programs, or against letting innocent kids in poor neighbourhoods know, as NDP MPP Michael Prue put it yesterday, "that there is a better future, that they don't have to belong to a gang, that they don't have to succumb to the violence." But a new basketball court doesn't stop bullets. It doesn't send a strong message to the brazen thugs shooting up our streets that they're going to be locked up (a message Miller and Blair also attempted to deliver yesterday). First, you need to get the gangsters and guns off the street. And make sure the courts keep them there. Make sentences tougher, and make sure judges make them stick. In this, Miller should listen to his erstwhile mayoralty rival John Tory, now Conservative leader --who wants to join forces with him, the NDP leader and the premier to push the feds and our judges for tougher justice for gun crimes. Sure beats pointing fingers. - -------------------------------------------------- OTTAWA'S FIREARMS POLICIES DISCONNECTED FROM TORONTO'S GUN PROBLEM August 5, 2005 - TORONTO POLICE CHIEF BILL BLAIR: Almost a quarter of people cops apprehend with guns are already prohibited from carrying firearms as a result of a previous conviction, Blair said. "It's quite apparent that for those individuals those prohibitions have very little effect," Blair said. November 24, 2004 - FIREARMS COMMISSIONER BILL BAKER: 176,000 PERSONS PROHIBITED FROM OWNING GUNS "NO LONGER EFFECTIVELY COVERED BY FIREARMS ACT." http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/Article473.htm STATISTICS CANADA CONTRADICTS JUSTICE MINISTER ON EFFECTIVNESS OF MANDATORY MINIMUM SENTENCES - ESPECIALLY FOR FIREARMS LEGISLATION http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/issues/guninfo/newguninfo/2005_firearmsup date_%2007_07.doc BREITKREUZ QUOTE: "Isn't it odd that the government would state categorically that mandatory minimum sentences do not work to curtail the criminal use of firearms but (in the face of all evidence to the contrary) that the gun registry does?" June 15, 2005 - RCMP SAY THEY HAVE NO INFORMATION ON WHY 70-YEARS OF REGISTERING HANDGUNS HASN'T WORKED OR ON TWO OTHER SOURCES OF CRIME GUNS http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/issues/guninfo/newguninfo/2005_firearmsfa ctsupdate_06_22.doc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 07:58:02 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: COLUMN: LA-LA LAND SOLUTIONS WITH GUN MURDERS MOUNTING PUBLICATION: The Toronto Sun DATE: 2005.08.09 EDITION: Final SECTION: Editorial/Opinion PAGE: 19 ILLUSTRATION: 1. photo by CP FORMER PREMIER Mike Harris' social program cuts have contributed to gun violence on Toronto streets, says Mayor David Miller. 2. photo of DAVID MILLER "Trying to rebuild" 3. photo of PAM MCCONNELL Daycare and parks BYLINE: CHRISTINA BLIZZARD, TORONTO SUN WORD COUNT: 599 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ LA-LA LAND SOLUTIONS WITH GUN MURDERS MOUNTING IN TORONTO, CHRISTINA BLIZZARD ASKS, WHAT DO SOCIAL PROGRAMS, REC CENTRES AND MIKE HARRIS HAVE TO DO WITH STOPPING CRIME? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ONE CITY. TWO MONTHS. Nine lives. That's the kind of bloody equation that makes up Monday mornings in Toronto thse days. It seems every weekend brings a new bullet-riddled horror, be it a 4-year-old hit in a drive-by or a 22-year-old gang member slain in a turf war. Early yesterday, three people were gunned down and two died in the Wellesley and Sherbourne area. Unbelievably, Mayor David Miller was still blaming the U.S. for the violence yesterday -- and then he and his like-minded colleagues added a new twist, blaming the previous provincial goverment for cutting back on youth programs. The NDP want more social programs to stop the gun violence. Miller agrees -- and points to the former Conservative regime for cutting them: "In some neighbourhoods there were excellent programs that got dismantled by the previous provincial government, and we are trying to rebuild them," he told a news conference at police headquarters. REC PROGRAMS Police services board chairman Pam McConnell seconded his view, yammering on about daycare and parks and rec programs. Look, I'm all in favour of giving kids summer jobs, but anyone who suggests that young people turn into violent psychopaths because they couldn't get into floor hockey at the rec centre is living in la-la land. And what left-leaning rock does this "give 'em subsidized daycare or they'll turn into murderers" mentality come from? When in doubt, blame Mike Harris. Blame U.S. gun laws. Never look in the mirror, because you might not like what you see. Whatever happened to taking responsibility for your own kids? Let's look at parents who raise kids with no values, no regard for human life and whose first means of solving a problem is through the barrel of a gun. Both Public Safety Minister Monte Kwinter and provincial Conservative leader John Tory spoke to the Police Association of Ontario in Ottawa yesterday. Kwinter said the province will soon make good on its promise to help police forces across Ontario begin hiring more cops. Tory said the needed officers have been delayed by dithering. "We will be lucky to have those police officers on the street by the end of next year and we need them on the streets now," he told me by telephone. Tory said a non-partisan delegation including himself, Premier Dalton McGuinty, NDP leader Howard Hampton and Miller should lobby Ottawa for tougher sentencing. There are already provisions in the Criminal Code for tougher sentences for gun crime, he pointed out. "The judges are not ... putting the additional time onto the sentence," he said. "We probably need, in the short term, to have some advocacy with the federal government to get them to issue a guideline to the judges saying 'use the section and the time to send a message.' " But Kwinter said there's no quick fix. "It's disgusting that these guys are shooting each other, but there isn't one simple solution to any of this," he said in a phone interview. "I don't think you need tougher laws -- with gun-related crimes, the laws are there and those laws have got to be applied and they have got to be applied to their maximum so there is a deterrent." He added he's already met with U.S. Ambassador David Wilkins to discuss smuggled guns. "Last year, 5,200 guns were identified as being confiscated at the border," Kwinter said. "The border people say that represents about 5%. If you do the math, that means there are 100,000 guns coming in illegally into Canada from the U.S. and that represents only half of the problem." All the same, we need to keep a perspective, Kwinter said. Toronto averages 65 murders a year. We're at 42 so far this year. Detroit has 500 a year. "I'm not saying it's not a problem, it's a serious problem, it's unacceptable, we have to deal with it. But we can't get to the point where people perceive there is a bunker mentality, you can't go out on the street because you are going to get shot, which just isn't the case," he said. Well, we're not quite there yet. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:01:43 -0600 (CST) From: "mred" Subject: Re: charges of possessing an unlicensed firearm, and unsafe storage Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca - ----- Original Message ----- From: ; "Garry - Assistant 1" > PUBLICATION: Belleville Intelligencer > DATE: 2005.08.09 > EDITION: Final > SECTION: Local > PAGE: A3 > SOURCE: Special to The Intelligencer > DATELINE: BRIGHTON > WORD COUNT: 306 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Former Brighton deputy reeve charged with illegal storage of firearms > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > BRIGHTON -- Former Brighton politician Glenn Quick will receive a > conditional discharge if he makes a $600 donation before appearing in > court Oct. 8 on charges of possessing an unlicensed firearm, and unsafe > storage of a firearm. > Morgan agreed to Thompson's request for a conditional discharge given > Quick's "good character and many years of faithful service to the > community. ... An offence of omission shouldn't gain a criminal record." > > Morgan said he'll grant Quick the conditional discharge he seeks if he > makes a $600 donation to Crime Stoppers before appearing again Oct. 8. Sound good to me ?This decision has set a precedent now for other charged gun -owners/ ed/ontario ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:07:32 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: Re: COLUMN: LA-LA LAND SOLUTIONS WITH GUN MURDERS MOUNTING - ----- Original Message ----- Subject: COLUMN: LA-LA LAND SOLUTIONS WITH GUN MURDERS MOUNTING > Tory said a non-partisan delegation including himself, Premier Dalton > McGuinty, NDP leader Howard Hampton and Miller should lobby Ottawa for > tougher sentencing. > > There are already provisions in the Criminal Code for tougher sentences > for gun crime, he pointed out. > > "The judges are not ... putting the additional time onto the sentence," > he said. "We probably need, in the short term, to have some advocacy > with the federal government to get them to issue a guideline to the > judges saying 'use the section and the time to send a message.' " I thought only the Provincial Solicitor General could give instructions to Judges as to what kinds of sentences they should be imposing. Ottawa makes the laws, the Provinces prosecute the cases. > "Last year, 5,200 guns were identified as being confiscated at the > border," Kwinter said. "The border people say that represents about 5%. I thought that 5,200 figure was for *five* years, not last year alone... Liberty is wasted on you, Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:08:12 -0600 (CST) From: "mred" Subject: Re: EDITORIAL: MILLER'S STILL OFF TARGET - ----- Original Message ----- From: ; "Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: EDITORIAL: MILLER'S STILL OFF TARGET > PUBLICATION: The Toronto Sun > DATE: 2005.08.09 > EDITION: Final > SECTION: Editorial/Opinion > PAGE: 18 > WORD COUNT: 405 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > MILLER'S STILL OFF TARGET > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > MAYOR DAVID Miller > > First, you need to get the gangsters and guns off the street. And make > sure the courts keep them there. > > Make sentences tougher, and make sure judges make them stick. In this, > Miller should listen to his erstwhile mayoralty rival John Tory, now > Conservative leader -- Uhuh judges, judges ,judges , if we make a mistake on a piece of paper we get fined untold amounts while the real criminals get a slap on the wrist and a prohibition order , that is a meaning less piece of paper. ed/ontario ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:35:48 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: [LETTER] Response should be extreme http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Arti cle_Type1&c=Article&cid=1123539010301&call_pageid=968332189003&col=96835011 6895&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes Aug. 9, 2005. 01:00 AM Response should be extreme Re: Mayor slammed over guns, Aug. 5. It seems that the thugs who terrorize our neighbourhoods, streets, restaurants and nightclubs with gunplay want us to live in fear. Our response should be extreme and punishing. The possession of the gun as a stand alone offence should fetch a 25- year sentence; if the gun is loaded or discharged add another 25 years to the sentence. The crime committed with a gun, whether discharged or not, adds another 25 years. As such "one with a gun gets you 75." The possession of guns and bullets for sale should receive the same 25-year sentence per gun. This draconian response will not eliminate gun crime but it will slow it down. Just as the United States calls on Canada to extradite people who supply illegal substances to the United States, we as a society should extradite American citizens who export illegal weapons to Canada. Once again the sentence should be 25 years per gun. The crime is horrendous; the response should be extreme. Graham Connaughton, Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:36:05 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: [LETTER] Hound criminals off the streets http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Arti cle_Type1&c=Article&cid=1123539010322&call_pageid=968332189003&col=96835011 6895 Aug. 9, 2005. 01:00 AM Hound criminals off the streets Saving Toronto's streets I used to work in Toronto, and I am weary of reading about constant violence which is a major part of everday life in the city. The Toronto police must profile the hoodlums who are responsible for the violence, maimings and killings - I don't care if that is politically acceptable. After profiling, they must hound the bastards off the streets the way they used to before the social workers and hand-wringers took over the city's politics and courts. Think it won't work; ask any police officer. Jack Macleod, Moncton N.B. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:36:21 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: [LETTER] Time for mayor to aid all citizens http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Arti cle_Type1&c=Article&cid=1123451410557&call_pageid=968332189003&col=96835011 6895 Aug. 8, 2005. 01:00 AM Time for mayor to aid all citizens Re: Mayor slammed over guns, Aug. 5. It's time Mayor David Miller steps up to the plate and goes to bat for all of the amalgamated Toronto, not just for downtown Toronto. Many of the latest gang-violence incidents have occurred on city-owned, subsided housing properties. The reality is, in the past few years, on-site security has been removed from these areas, by the city, in order to cut costs. This has left tenants at the mercy of drug dealers and others who intimidate, disrupt, and in some cases, injure tenants. Many of the tenants feel abandoned by a city council that seems to spend enormous amounts of time and money addressing issues for residents in the downtown core, while the concerns of residents in north east and west Toronto seem to be met with indifference by the mayor. As the tenants ask questions, our mayor has been invisible in troubled areas north of Bloor St. Like it or not, we in North York, Scarbourgh, York and Etobicoke are now a part of Toronto. It's time Miller talks to the people in these area and offers some real solutions to solve the issues that face all of Toronto. Evelyn E. Arthur, Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:36:35 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: [LETTER] How will courts deal with charges? http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Arti cle_Type1&c=Article&cid=1123451410590&call_pageid=968332189003&col=96835011 6895 Aug. 8, 2005. 01:00 AM How will courts deal with charges? Re: Older brother `target in shooting', Aug. 5. It seems this horrific event has police, politicians and citizens up in arms denouncing the needless violence and promising all sort of action. And there is a suspect who faces no less than 63 charges, including eight counts of attempted murder. While I applaud all the action that is being promised to deal with gun violence, I wonder if our court system will finally join the real world and deal with convicted gun-criminals accordingly. How many of the 63 charges brought against this suspect will be dropped, reduced and plea bargained so that in the end this excuse for a human being will get a couple of years behind bars and be eligible for parole in a few months? Francis Zita, Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:37:10 -0600 (CST) From: Phil Cottrell Subject: Gunnutz Down? Haven't been able to connect to Gunnutz for a few hours now. Anybody know what's up? Is there a rally point at another website? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:42:18 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: Re: Gunnutz Down? - ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil Cottrell > Haven't been able to connect to Gunnutz for a few hours now. Anybody know > what's up? Is there a rally point at another website? I haven't been able to connect, either. The old "rally point", Warm Barrels, Cool Nights doesn't seem to exist anymore...I'm not aware of a new one. Bruce/Nimrod45 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 10:05:43 -0600 (CST) From: Lee Jasper Subject: It's time to talk real solutions > MAYOR, CHIEF DETERMINED TO PUT END TO VIOLENCE The Sun headline screams . . . . so why does the CPC insist that the 71 year old, useless handgun registry will be maintained under a CPC gov't. Even old Liberal Herb 'The Fog' Gray said it was useless. Seems to be another case of the policy wonks and Grit busting politicians clearly contradicting themselves. It's these obvious contradictions that cause folks 'interested' in 'a change' to look askew. Gun 'Registry's" don't work so the CPC will cashier one but keep 'the other'. Cut the political rhetoric and borrow a page from Canada's #1 Tory, Bill Davis. Offer some 'real POG' solutions. Push the 'prohibition' registry and the idea that it would be largely cost-free because most of the 'bad dudes' are already listed on CPIC. I have not talked to anyone who believes that 'no one' knows where any of the convicted felons, sex offenders, parolees, probationers, etc. are located. An up-to-date address and regular checks by local police is a condition of release for many. Plus any cop picks these dirt bags outta the crowd while on patrol or during their personal visits to CTC. (We'll ignore the fact that any reasonable person will also conclude the thugs will obey any 'prohibition registry' as much as they obey court prohibition orders and the FA). But it makes for 'good' sound bites. > PISTOLS ARE the murder weapon of choice on Toronto's blood-stained > streets, with more people dead by gunfire already this year than in > all of 2004. So when the CPC finally gets its act together and gives a 'consistent' line about either trashing both - or keeping both - Registries, make sure the accompanying 'lines' about what will replace these 'if it will save even one life' Liberal ploys are cogent and largely irrefutable. I realize the CPC is going to have to kiss off the vote from the law and order police types and the social conservatives who believe bad guns should be registered if not banned altogether when they blow the cops arguments for The Registry(s) out of the water. And I realize the CPC will need to get its act together with a solid rationale for gun owners if they want to keep their 'screening certificates' or the most politically salable rationale - a 'tighter' owner licencing/certification regime. Steph . . . why don't you convene an emergency 'consultation' on dealing with urban Toronto gun crime? (I realize you'd have to kiss up to the McFiberals to pull it off because of the 'shared powers' with Ont). Ontario PCs John Tory, Bob Runciman and Jim Flaherty will shine. (Brendan Shanahan's two day Tronna consult about improved NHL playing rules got reams of positive press). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:51:28 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Subject: re: What Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:16:39 -0600 (CST) From: "ross" Subject: What > How are you, sir? Can I see some ID?" the police officer asks a young > man drinking a beer with a friend at the back door of a highrise > apartment building in the city's northwest end. TELL ME THIS IS IN RUSSIA NOT CANADA. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------ I understand that you are not legally required to identify yourself to the authorities unless you are actually placed under arrest. Yours in Tyranny, Joe Gingrich White Fox, Sask. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:51:53 -0600 (CST) From: "mred" Subject: Re: [LETTER] Hound criminals off the streets - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Mills" > http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Arti > cle_Type1&c=Article&cid=1123539010322&call_pageid=968332189003&col=96835011 > 6895 > > Aug. 9, 2005. 01:00 AM > > Hound criminals off the streets > Saving Toronto's streets > > I used to work in Toronto, and I am weary of reading about constant > violence which is a major part of everday life in the city. The Toronto > police must profile the hoodlums who are responsible for the violence, > maimings and killings - I don't care if that is politically acceptable. > After profiling, they must hound the bastards off the streets the way they > used to before the social workers and hand-wringers took over the city's > politics and courts. Think it won't work; ask any police officer. > > Jack Macleod, Moncton N.B. One word :judges ? ed/ontario ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V8 #313 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) If you find this service valuable, please consider making a tax-deductible donation to the freenet we use: Saskatoon Free-Net Assoc., P.O. Box 1342, Saskatoon SK S7K 3N9 Phone: (306) 382-7070 Home page: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/ These e-mail digests are free to everyone, and are made possible by the efforts of countless volunteers. Permission is granted to copy and distribute this digest as long as it not altered in any way.