From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V8 #326 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Friday, August 12 2005 Volume 08 : Number 326 In this issue: Re: [Bulk] [LETTER] Fantino one of few to tackle problem Why people smuggle Letter to Globe and Mail (unpub) .. COLUMN: TOUGHER MEASURES FOR GUN VIOLENCE NEEDED LETTER: TAKING AIM AT GUN REGISTRY CLAIMS Men facing weapons charges Standoff ends with suicide EDITOR (That explains the giant sucking sound.) AMBASSADOR STANDS FIRM ON BORDER Soaring gun violence takes 2 more victims U.S. envoy gets earful from premiers: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:18:50 -0600 (CST) From: "mred" Subject: Re: [Bulk] [LETTER] Fantino one of few to tackle problem - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert P." > There is only one to deal with bullies. And this is what these gangs > are -- > bullies. The only way to deal with them is to kick them; kick them hard > and > kick them often. Kick them until they are down and keep on kicking them > until they realise you are not the victim they thought you were. Bullies > (gangs) will pick on the weak and only when you prove to them you are not > weaker than them will they leave you alone. yes of course ! but try and tell that to our masters? ed/ontario ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:19:39 -0600 (CST) From: "ross" Subject: Why people smuggle Some do it for the kicks of not getting caught..doing sopmething "dangerous" it ads a little adrenalin to their lives. others do it for profit..simply making money the risk reward is pretty high lastly there are those that do it because they cant afford not to. It appears almost like a victimless crime until the guns turn up in the toronto hood and get used. They do this because gas is a buck a stinking litre, property taxes are through the roof, everyone from auto workers t0o social workers are getting huge increases in salary and everyone else is demanding a bigger piece of the pie. So p[rices for everything from groceries to gas, from dental beeds to school are goiong higher and higher with no ebnd in site. Note this NO END IN SIGHT. heating gas and oil this winter will be qa shocker as the porices rise dramatically. electricity will be another shocker in April when another round of price increases will occur. There is only one taxpayer with a finite amount of earning power and money. When taxes take up 45 to 50 % of your gross income, you get left with peanuts to pay the other expenses that just seem to go up with it. We are in a society where greed not need is the word. everyone keeping up with the Jones, all wanting their piece of success. No wonder we have smugglers, our lifestyle demands that we have them. Pity the poor, as they will be the ones who will feel the full weight of the law on their necks ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:19:56 -0600 (CST) From: "Robert S. Sciuk" Subject: Letter to Globe and Mail (unpub) .. Canadians want strict security poll finds ... (fwd) Dear Sir/Madame, It strikes me as an odd asymmetry that in the same week that Canada buries Sgt. "Smokey" Smith with the honours appropriate for one who fought so heroically to preserve our freedoms, that Canadians would hold so little stock in liberty that we are willing to give it up at a merest hint of a terror threat. Clearly, it is easier to weed out terrorists or dissenters or those who might in some way "oppose" the government in a police state. Personal identity papers which must be produced upon demand, video surveillance on every street corner, monitoring of credit card transactions, GPS tracking in our vehicles and massive computers to watch the comings and goings of ALL Canadians in order to provide the illusion of safety. Perhaps instead of watching television each night, the television should be watching you. It says much about this generation that according to "the Strategic Counsel?" poll that the "majority" of Canadians would consent to this. Our democratic system already has sufficient tools to deal with terrorism as it is. We do not need to diminish our liberties in order to safeguard our way of life, and any safety derived from such measures would be completely illusory at best. Personally I have trouble believing that Canadians are such utter milquetoasts, and I think old "Smokey" may have had a different word or two to say on the matter. Sincerely, Robert S. Sciuk Oshawa, Ont. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:20:15 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: COLUMN: TOUGHER MEASURES FOR GUN VIOLENCE NEEDED PUBLICATION: The Toronto Sun DATE: 2005.08.12 EDITION: Final SECTION: Lifestyle PAGE: 51 BYLINE: JOHN DERRINGER COLUMN: Definitely WORD COUNT: 626 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM TOUGHER MEASURES FOR GUN VIOLENCE NEEDED - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ THERE IS A massive elephant in the middle of this room we call Toronto. We don't talk about it. The police aren't allowed to mention it, or compile statistics on its size, or its impact on the city. Some of the media sidesteps the giant pachyderm, using as many vague terms to describe it as they can conjure up. The elephant, of course, is the racial aspect of the recent gun violence in Toronto. Most of the gang-related shootings that have shaken this city involve black victims, and, if history and police work are proven correct, black shooters. But from some media and police reports, you'd never know it. Recently, however, a number of black community leaders, including Pastor Clefrin Thompson and Pastor Orim Meikle, have publicly addressed this problem at a church noon-hour sermon. MURDERS In 2003, for instance, statistics from Ryerson's Diversity Watch indicated that out of 31 gun-related murders, 22 of the victims were black. Out of 18 cases where the race of the suspect is known, an astounding 14 were black. Although many recent cases remain unsolved, I don't think it's a stretch to assume that those numbers, and percentages, are similar today. I believe there are a number of factors that contribute to the bind in which we now find ourselves. We have a city council that does much of its business behind closed doors, and veils its intentions in vague, ambiguous language. That same council, which now feigns concern over the recent spate of gun crimes, has been hesitant, if not downright obstinate, on the subject of hiring more police officers. More officers in high-risk areas has been a proven deterrent in many American cities. We have a mayor who's now willing (unfortunately, in concert with our new police chief) to place much of the blame on our federal government for allowing so many guns to cross our borders. That makes no sense: We've got a gun problem, so let's blame the States. Is there anything for which our politicians won't blame our neighbours to the south? With the exception of hunters and sport-shooters, the only guns we have in this country are held by criminals. I highly doubt that many members of Toronto's street gangs signed up their weapons in Alan Rock's infamous gun registry. And those who are willing to risk death or arrest in the heat of a gang war will undoubtedly risk smuggling guns across the border. The most brazen of the recent shootings took place early on the morning of July 31, when 24-year-old Ajine Stewart allegedly shot 21-year-old Dwayne Taylor in view of hundreds of spectators and police at Dundas Square on Yonge St. Dealing with shooters like that is not dissimilar to the enemy we're fighting in the War on Terror. It is next to impossible to provide a deterrent sanction to those who are not afraid to die, or are not afraid to spend a large chunk of their lives in prison. If one is willing to open fire on an enemy in front of droves of police officers and put the lives of innocent people at risk, I highly doubt that a community outreach program or neighbourhood visits from Elmer the Safety Elephant would have turned his or her life around. HIGHER POLICE PRESENCE This is the time for tougher measures, starting with a justice system that acknowledges and punishes gun crimes for the scourge they are. A higher police presence in high-risk areas that doesn't involve kisses and cuddles for the criminals. Most importantly, we need an open, honest dialogue. Pretending that the elephant isn't sitting in the middle of the room is neither open nor honest. If we stay on the course we're on now, this problem will only get worse. Eventually, resentment and fear will cause every good, hard-working honest black person in Toronto to become suspect. And that would be the greatest shame of all. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:20:45 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: LETTER: TAKING AIM AT GUN REGISTRY CLAIMS PUBLICATION: The London Free Press DATE: 2005.08.12 EDITION: Final SECTION: Opinion Pages PAGE: A8 ILLUSTRATION: photo of STEVEN HARPER BYLINE: M. L. GOLDENBERG, LONDON COLUMN: Letters to the Editor WORD COUNT: 52 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ TAKING AIM AT GUN REGISTRY CLAIMS - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Regarding the letter, Harper can't claim to speak for families (Aug. 9). Kevin Spafford claims that the gun registry is responsible for the rejection of 13,000 firearms licences. This claim is absolutely false. Licence rejections take place during the licence application process, which is totally separate from long-gun registration. Only those who have been approved for a firearms licence can register a firearm, thereby making the registry redundant. Liberal MPs often make this same incorrect claim, which is simply Liberal propaganda. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:20:49 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: Men facing weapons charges PUBLICATION: The Chatham Daily News DATE: 2005.08.12 EDITION: Final SECTION: News PAGE: 8 COLUMN: Briefly SOURCE: The Wallaceburg News DATELINE: WALLACEBURG WORD COUNT: 46 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Men facing weapons charges - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ WALLACEBURG (Staff) -- A 47-year-old Wallaceburg man and a 42-year-old Sarnia man face weapons charges after Chatham-Kent police raided an apartment on Murray Street Wednesday evening. Police seized a 12-gauge shotgun. The gun wasn't registered and police said no one had a valid firearms licence to possess a firearm. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:21:06 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: Standoff ends with suicide PUBLICATION: The Province DATE: 2005.08.12 EDITION: Final SECTION: News PAGE: A18 BYLINE: Stuart Hunter SOURCE: The Province WORD COUNT: 153 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Standoff ends with suicide - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A 16-hour standoff with an armed Surrey man ended yesterday when the man took his own life. Cpl. Miriam Booth of Surrey RCMP said officers went to home in the 2300-block Cranley Drive at about 7:20 p.m. Wednesday to execute an arrest warrant but were met with resistance by the 59-year-old man. "He didn't want to co-operate and he then barricaded himself inside his residence and threatened to harm himself," Booth said. "The national gun registry had indicated that he did have three firearms registered to him, so therefore the necessary precautions to ensure the safety of the police and public were taken." The RCMP emergency response team and negotiating teams were called in and some neighbouring homes were evacuated. "They negotiated with him off-and-on throughout the evening and into the morning and were negotiating with him at the time he decided to take his own life [at 11:30 a.m.]," said Booth. Neither the man's identity nor warrant details were released. Police were still investigating last night. shunter@png.canwest.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:21:16 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: EDITOR (That explains the giant sucking sound.) PUBLICATION: The Edmonton Sun DATE: 2005.08.12 EDITION: Final SECTION: Editorial/Opinion PAGE: 10 COLUMN: Letters to the Editor ISN'T IT ironic that Toronto-area politicians were the big force behind the anemic gun registry and now Toronto is becoming the new centre of the universe for gun violence? I wonder if they feel the $2 billion wasted on the gun registry is worth it now? Maybe the so-called centre of the universe is just a black hole. V. Cooper EDITOR (That explains the giant sucking sound.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:21:32 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: AMBASSADOR STANDS FIRM ON BORDER PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Sun DATE: 2005.08.12 EDITION: Final SECTION: News PAGE: 14 ILLUSTRATION: 2 photos 1. photo of DALTON McGUINTY Gun crackdown 2. photo of DAVID WILKINS Shared problem BYLINE: ANTONELLA ARTUSO, QUEEN'S PARK BUREAU DATELINE: BANFF, ALTA. COLUMN: Parliament Hill WORD COUNT: 244 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ AMBASSADOR STANDS FIRM ON BORDER - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The province should be looking more closely at its own security when it complains about illegal weapons being smuggled from the United States, the new ambassador said yesterday. "That is a shared responsibility," David Wilkins said after a private meeting with Premier Dalton McGuinty. "I've heard more than one Canadian official say it's mostly Canadians bringing the guns across. Not hundreds of thousands at a time, but three or four at a time." PRIVATE MEETING McGuinty requested the private meeting with Wilkins to discuss the smuggling of American guns across the border. Wilkins said his government already has U.S. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms enforcement officers working on this issue, but plans to add more agents. "Keep in mind now that it is against the law in the United States for a Canadian citizen to come down and buy a handgun in just about every state," he said. "So they break the law if they buy it in the States and they break the law when they return." McGuinty said it isn't practical to search all vehicles coming into Ontario from the U.S., nor does he expect to be able to convince the Americans to ban handguns. "So we have to find a way to share more intelligence, to beef up our human resources at the border in order to ensure that we're just being more effective, more proactive when it comes to capturing smuggled guns at the border," McGuinty said. The two sides also agreed to draw in the federal government, which has responsibility for the Canadian side of the border. Later, McGuinty said the provincial government will accelerate plans to put more foot soldiers on the street in the war against illegal guns. Community Safety Minister Monte Kwinter will announce details this morning on expediting the hiring of 1,000 new police officers, McGuinty said. -- With files from CP antonella.artuso@tor.sunpub.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:21:54 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: Soaring gun violence takes 2 more victims PUBLICATION: The Toronto Star DATE: 2005.08.09 EDITION: MET SECTION: News PAGE: A1 BYLINE: Betsy Powell SOURCE: Toronto Star ILLUSTRATION: RenE Johnston toronto STar Police tape stretches across thescene of a shooting a few hours earlier on Homewood Ave. in which two men died and one was wounded as the sun rises yesterday. !@CORRECT=CORRECTION Toronto police had seized 1,151 firearms this year by August 5. Stories published Tuesday had the number wrong, as did a cor rection published Wednesday. The numbers were supplied by the police department. The Star regrets the errors. 20050811 WORD COUNT: 848 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Soaring gun violence takes 2 more victims 'Gun crime is not the Toronto that any Torontonian expects'; Police blame 'a small few' - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The group of friends had just left the Phoenix Concert Theatre on Sherbourne St. in downtown Toronto after enjoying its weekly reggae music and hip hop night. They were heading to a car parked on a nearby street just before 4 a.m. yesterday, when a man came up to them and fired several shots. Two men died and another was hurt. Police don't believe the gunman knew the victims. What they do know is that guns have been used in more slayings this year than in all of 2004. Ali Mohamud Ali, 19, died instantly in the shooting early Monday near Homewood Ave. and Maitland Pl. A 20-year-old man was also hit. Friends tried to drive Loyan Mohammed Ahmed, 23, to a nearby hospital. A few blocks away, near Bloor and Jarvis Sts., they waved to police for help. An ambulance came but paramedics weren't able to save him. Twenty-three people have been shot in Toronto in the past two weeks, including a 4-year-old boy. "It's a very serious concern," Mayor David Miller told a news conference yesterday at police headquarters that was also attended by police Chief Bill Blair and members of the police services board. "Gun crime is not the Toronto that any Torontonian expects," the mayor said. "We do not expect to have shooting incidents of the kind that happened last night behind a popular nightclub to happen in this city." Police don't know if the gunman was in the nightclub and they don't know what motivated the shooter. While police believe many recent shootings in the city are "retaliatory" and are part of gang wars, there is nothing to suggest the deaths of Ali and Ahmed were gang-related, said homicide Staff Insp. Jeff McGuire. Seven men have been killed with guns since July 30. Just one arrest has been made. "They are the most difficult to solve and they are the ones most often related back to gang-related violence," said McGuire. Police have seized 2,470 firearms so far in 2005, said Blair. The majority of the handguns that were used in crime have been traced to the United States. Miller repeated his pledge to push the federal government for action on firearms smuggling, saying authorities have a difficult time catching gun runners. The mayor said he has even heard of snowbirds - the Canadians who flock to sunnier climes in the winter - bringing guns into this country illegally. No weapon was recovered after early yesterday's shooting. Yesterday there were three areas cordoned off by yellow police tape in the downtown core, one at Maitland Pl. and Homewood Ave., another at Jarvis and Bloor Sts., where a green Malibu straddled the southbound lanes of Jarvis with its two doors ajar. Yellow tape was also in front of the Phoenix, though McGuire emphasized police don't believe anything happened there. One resident of a highrise on Wellesley St. overlooking Homewood, got up shortly before 4 a.m. and looked out the window after hearing voices. "I thought it was just hookers out there having another hooker fight," said the man, who asked that his name not be used. He said he spotted what looked like two groups of men facing each other. "Then there was four quick pops and then two pops and the noise sounded like a cap gun ... and kaboom, one's down," he said, adding he didn't see who pulled the trigger or from which direction it came. He called 911 and went on to his balcony and saw one man splayed over another lying on the ground, bleeding and with some clothing clumped to the side of his neck. "He was screeching 'Call police, call an ambulance.' " Yesterday, there was a pool of blood on the roadway, beside a white windbreaker-style jacket. Another resident of the building, Bruce McCubbin, was sleeping in his apartment when his girlfriend awoke after hearing the sound of four or five gunshots. They got up and went to the balcony, which also faces south, and watched what happened next. "One man was lying on the ground with another crouched over him holding what looked like a towel to his head and there was blood coming from him." He saw another man leaning against a post who appeared to be hit in the arm. "It was difficult to see because it was so dark." He heard someone yelling, "Call the cops, call the cops," and others panicking. "There was voices all over the place but ... there was people screaming up the street." McCubbin, an ex-police officer in Glasgow, contrasted the recent "crazy" period of gun violence in Toronto to what he saw back home. "Glasgow is a violent city in a way but more stabbings, slashings, and people don't really carry guns because there's strict gun laws in Britain," he said. "But here, I've never seen anything like what I saw last night, even with two years on the police force, I didn't see anything as bad as I saw last night on the street. It was terrible." Yesterday police officers combed the area and used a metal detector on the grass around a large Victorian brick home at the corner of Homewood and Maitland that was hit by a bullet. The occupants declined to speak to reporters. In the past five days, the Toronto Police Service has redeployed approximately 50 officers from throughout the service up into the northwest part of the city, which has had a number of shooting incidents, but also into Scarborough and downtown neighbourhoods plagued with gun violence, Blair told the news conference. Both he and McGuire, however, said the city is not collapsing with gun or youth violence and blamed "a small few" for terrorizing neighbourhoods. Back near Homewood Ave., a woman who identified herself as Lisa, and didn't want her last name used, was walking with her two children past the police tape on Wellesley St. She said she is sickened by the violence but looks to understand what is driving it. "Toronto is segregated and they are marginalized, not part of society. They're bad guys, suffering mental illness, who grew up in poverty and have little hope of finding jobs so they turn to the underworld and guns." with files from Vanessa Lu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:22:13 -0600 (CST) From: Breitkreuz@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca, Garry - Assistant 1 Subject: U.S. envoy gets earful from premiers: PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen DATE: 2005.08.12 EDITION: Final SECTION: News PAGE: A3 BYLINE: April Lindgren SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen DATELINE: BANFF, Alta. ILLUSTRATION: Photo: Jeff McIntosh, The Canadian Press / U.S. AmbassadorDavid Wilkins speak to reporters while Alberta Premier Ralph Klein looks on. WORD COUNT: 602 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ U.S. envoy gets earful from premiers: Wilkins offers few concessions on nations' cross-border issues - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ BANFF, Alta. - The new United States ambassador to Canada braved a meeting with the country's premiers yesterday where he heard a litany of complaints about everything from the flow of illegal guns coming into Canada to America's bullying trade tactics. "There are always things you can work on and improve," Ambassador David Wilkins conceded following his luncheon meeting with the premiers during their annual meeting. "But I also think we sometimes lose sight of the many wonderful, good and co-operative things we've got going on between us." Alberta Premier Ralph Klein, the host of the meeting, said when it comes to resolving concerns about illegal guns and the ongoing softwood lumber dispute, Mr. Wilkins' friendship with President George W. Bush, will come in handy. "He said that in a political way he will pass on the concerns that were expressed by the premiers," Mr. Klein said. Mr. Wilkins, however, did not offer any concessions. Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty, who met one-on-one with Mr. Wilkins yesterday to discuss the flow of U.S. firearms into Toronto, said he was impressed by the ambassador's knowledge about the issue and his "sensitivity about our desire to establish and maintain here in Canada a different kind of gun culture than they have south of the border. "We have agreed it is a shared responsibility," he said. "We came to no formal proposal at this point in time but it was another step along the way to ensuring that the ambassador specifically, more generally Washington, understands how important an issue this is to us." Although police officials estimate that as many as half the illegal guns seized in Toronto originate in the U.S., Mr. McGuinty conceded there is no easy solution to the problem. "The extremes are these. We can get the United States Congress to ban handguns south of the border. That's not going to happen," he said. "The other extreme is that we can search each and every vehicle (coming) across the border into Ontario from the United States. "That's not on either so we have to find a way to share more intelligence, to beef up our human resources at the border in order to ensure that we are being more effective, more proactive when it comes to capturing smuggled guns at the border." Under pressure to do something about a recent spate of shootings in Toronto, the McGuinty government is expected to announce today that it is going to move more quickly to fulfil an election promise to help fund the hiring of 1,000 more police officers. Mr. Wilkins said U.S. law enforcement officials are working with Canadian agencies and co-operating in tracing weapons seized in Canada. "Keep in mind it is against the law in the United States for a Canadian citizen to come down and buy a handgun in just about every state," Mr. Wilkins added. "So they break the law if they buy it in the States and then break the law when they return. I've heard more than one official say it is mostly Canadians bringing the guns across not hundreds or thousands at a time, but three or four at a time." Quebec Premier Jean Charest said the meeting with the ambassador was important because "one thing we've all learned in the last few years is that we should not rely on the federal government alone to maintain that relationship with our southern neighbour. "We should do more to pursue our relationships with governors, with senators, with members of the House of Representatives because we have issues that need to be pursued with a great deal of vigour." Mr. Charest said the meeting was an opportunity to convey to Mr. Wilkins that the softwood lumber dispute, for instance, has gone on too long and "that it has an impact on the overall relationship between Canada and the United States and on NAFTA and on the arbitration mechanism within NAFTA and that we should seek to bring it to a conclusion and resolve it." ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V8 #326 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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