From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V8 #661 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Wednesday, November 23 2005 Volume 08 : Number 661 In this issue: Re: WOMAN COP SLAIN IN U.K. RE: Morley Lymburner Rex Murphy Five released over Pc shot dead-UK Charter arguments defeat case against Margaret Trudeau RE: Tomlinsons Post Re: [Bulk] Charter arguments defeat case against Margaret Trudeau 30% error rate acceptable Re: about Rex Murphy Group hopes to get out black vote PM commits to gun-violence summit Another gun crime lobby group Re: Rex Murphy CPC and The Firearms Registry Re: Smoker was shot for not sharing, police say Re: 30% error rate acceptable My letter to Blue Line Magazine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:03:40 -0600 (CST) From: Dave Jordan Subject: Re: WOMAN COP SLAIN IN U.K. Tell me, are you saying that just because hand guns are, according to you- "outlawed in England" that criminals don't possess and can not acquire them? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/4460710.stm http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ That's as bad, if not worse than saying; "The Firearms Registry" is working and that there's no "Gang related gun crime" in TO! Please provide us with your reference material on this subject to back up your claims with reference URL's? DRGJ "An ordinance that seeks to reduce the murder rate by disarming those owners who are not criminals makes about as much sense as fighting alcoholism by prohibiting beer sales to Mormons." - - Steve Chapman on RealClearPolitics [Thanks for the link to this website Dewey.] - ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Tomlinson To: undisclosed-recipients: Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 10:01 PM Subject: WOMAN COP SLAIN IN U.K. This story is clearly false, as the British outlawed the possession of any handgun several years ago. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:04:02 -0600 (CST) From: "avon brown" Subject: RE: Morley Lymburner Rex Murphy Dear SIr: Mr. Lymburner suggests that Mr. Murphy may have responded more from = the heart than from the head. I can't speak for Mr. Murphy. I agree with Mr. Lymburner that we = were mislead,lied to, and who know if it was ever REALLY audited it = might make Adscam look like chump change. However, Mr. Lymburner failed to explain why it's necessary to know = how many guns and what kinds of guns an individual has. He mentions how = nice it is when responding to domestic abuse cases, but all that's = needed is a LICENSE it tells you what someone is legally allowed to own. = Be it restricted or non-restricted weapons. Is Mr.Lymburner Implying = that if there's no record of LEGAL guns they respond with less caution? I know a few street cops and they find this reasoning nonsensical = as domestic abuse calls are ALWAYS nerve racking. The street cops say a = gun LICENSE tells them what they need to know. But I quess they must be = wrong as they are just street cops not politicians. I have an expert rating in defensive Handgun use and have shot for = over 30 years and I have seen only ONE person who could shoot more than = ONE gun at a time and they were exhibiton shooters.Using more than one = LONG gun at a time I have never seen. That being said. After securing the situation they could search to = their hearts content for ALL firearms in the house. I find it laughable and somewhat hypocritical to refer to = law-abiding citizens fighting for their rights as the powerful GUN = LOBBY. A lobby funded by individuals with their own money and time.They = get NO tax money,unlike the Coalition For Gun Control and others of that = ilk who are funded almost entirely by Tax dollars be it city councils or = Police Associations. =20 Regards=20 Buddy Brown Calgary, Alberta ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:05:00 -0600 (CST) From: Dave Jordan Subject: Five released over Pc shot dead-UK Five released over Pc shot dead Ref: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/4460710.stm Pc Sharon Beshenivsky joined the Bradford South team in May Five people arrested in connection with the fatal shooting of Pc Sharon Beshenivsky have been released. The 38-year-old was shot dead and her colleague Pc Teresa Milburn, 37, injured during an armed raid at a travel agency on Friday. Two men, both 22, a 18-year-old man and a 24-year-old man have now been released on police bail. A woman, 18, has been released without charge. One man, 31, is still being held in police custody. Floral tributes Pc Beshenivsky died after being shot in the chest on her youngest daughter's fourth birthday. She had been a serving police officer for nine months. Her colleague Pc Milburn, who joined the West Yorkshire force in April 2004, was shot in the shoulder. Both officers had been wearing body armour which provided limited ballistic protection. The five men and a woman were arrested in London on Saturday. Hundreds of floral tributes to Pc Beshenivsky have been laid outside the police cordon at the scene of the shooting on Morley Street in Bradford. The wooden screens that sealed the road off at the weekend have now been removed although fencing panels still surround the Universal Express Travel Agents where the robbery happened. Worldwide condolences Police chiefs have described the shooting as their "worst nightmare". West Yorkshire's Chief Constable Colin Cramphorn said he had searched his soul about what could have been done to prevent Pc Beshenivsky's death and Pc Milburn's injuries. But he concluded the officers had the right protective equipment and back-up to deal with the robbery. He also described the heart-breaking scene when he visited Pc Beshenivsky's family in Keighley on Saturday to be confronted with the sight of her four-year-old daughter's unopened birthday presents. "That is an image that is just seared into my brain," he said. Pc Beshenivsky's husband Paul has described the mother of three children and two step-children as his rock. "She was loved by everyone who met her and my family's loss is felt by so many. "It breaks my heart to think that I will never hear her infectious laugh again." Related Links: http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:05:09 -0600 (CST) From: Edward Hudson Subject: Charter arguments defeat case against Margaret Trudeau Charter arguments defeat case against Margaret Trudeau Last Updated Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:44:20 EST CBC News Margaret Trudeau gave credit to her former husband Tuesday after a judge ruled her rights were violated and threw out alcohol-related charges against her. Ontario Court Judge Lise Maisonneuve ruled police officers violated Trudeau's rights to counsel and protection against unwarranted detention when she was pulled over on suspicion of impaired driving on May 30, 2004. Margaret Trudeau leaves the Ottawa courthouse following an appearance on a charge of driving while over the legal limit, October 2005. (CP Photo/Tom Hanson) Maisonneuve also said police compromised Trudeau's right to a fair trial. Telling reporters she was relieved by the decision, Trudeau praised the role her ex-husband, former prime minister Pierre Trudeau, played in creating the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Pierre Trudeau died in 2000, 18 years after the ground-breaking charter came into effect in 1982. He and Margaret Trudeau divorced in 1984. After Margaret Trudeau was pulled over 18 months ago, police said a breathalyzer test revealed her blood-alcohol level was 107 milligrams of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood. The legal limit is 80 milligrams. Trudeau's lawyer, Michael Edelson argued his client should not have been pulled over in the first place. He said the officer had no radar, and so wouldn't be able to tell if Trudeau was speeding. Edelson said she was also denied access to her choice of lawyer. Police phoned the lawyers themselves, got voicemails, then didn't tell Trudeau she could have left messages. He said Trudeau had to choose a lawyer from a list provided to her by the police. The Crown had argued that her right to counsel was honoured "within reason." A prosecutor had told the court that the arresting officer followed Trudeau's vehicle after she passed him at a stop light and that he timed her for several blocks. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:24:22 -0600 (CST) From: "Larry Neufeld" Subject: RE: Tomlinsons Post I agree with AOB. How ironic that the President of the NFA blatantly ignores such reasonable questions posted to him from members of this digest. With the position of NFA National VP of Communications being second only to the National President it seems out of character for the NFA to not respond to allies of the cause. Perhaps they have something to hide? I've been waiting for what seems like an eternity for David A. Tomlinson to respond to the questions posted to him on this digest by Rick Lowe. Larry Neufeld ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:27:45 -0600 (CST) From: "Robert P." Subject: Re: [Bulk] Charter arguments defeat case against Margaret Trudeau RHIP ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:30:41 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: 30% error rate acceptable I'm trying to track down a quote, by David Austin I believe, that he considered a 30% error rate in the Firearms Registry to be "acceptable". I'm sure I had this somewhere on one of my hard drives, but of course, I can't find it. I'm sure it would have been published on the CFD too, but I can't find it there, either. If you have this quote kicking around somewhere, would you please send it to me? If you remember hearing/reading about this, I'd like confirmation that I'm not just losing it. Well, not too badly anyway... Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:59:34 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Subject: Re: about Rex Murphy In the case of Mr. Harper I will include a letter. I know the CPC plans to > scrap the registry. I want to know what will happen to the information > already contained in the registry. I want assurances the data will be > destroyed so that this legislation will never again raise its ugly head. That's a good thought, Paul. Bruce Hamilton Ontario - ------------------------------------------------------------- I would like to burn that information in "Old Smokey" at the Peace Flame on Parliament Hill, thus completing the task which was begun on Jan.1, 2003. Joe White Fox Sask. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:28:48 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: Group hopes to get out black vote http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Arti cle_Type1&c=Article&cid=1132613412480&call_pageid=968350130169&col=96948320 2845 Group hopes to get out black vote HAROLD LEVY STAFF REPORTER Nov. 22, 2005. 01:00 AM Generations of young blacks could be lost to crime, poverty and frustration if their community fails to mobilize politically, says the founder of a new organization, Operation Black Vote Canada, to be launched in Toronto tonight. "We as a people have to stop doing lip service to the social problems that plague us," Delores Lawrence said. "We have to be involved." One of the group's principles is "to educate, motivate and inspire members of Canada's black community (adults and youths) to participate in the political process at all levels, especially voting." "If we can empower young people by getting them involved in the democratic process - something as basic as going out to vote - then they will feel that they are part of the system," Lawrence said. Lawrence, who received the Order of Ontario in 2004 for her community involvement, said a large number of blacks in Canada - including some who have been in the country for years - cannot vote because they have not applied for citizenship. Lawrence stressed that the organization will be non-partisan. Board members include Denham Jolly, president of FLOW 93.5; recent Toronto Police Services Board appointee Hamlin Grange; former CBC producer Cynthia Reyes; retired civil servant Willoughby Edwards; and civil libertarian Bromley Armstrong. Operation Black Vote Canada is being launched today between 6 and 8 p.m. at the Ontario Club on Wellington St. A $25 contribution is being requested. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:06:10 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: PM commits to gun-violence summit http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051122.wmartin1122/BNS tory/National/ PM commits to gun-violence summit By SCOTT DEVEAU Tuesday, November 22, 2005 Posted at 8:54 PM EST Globe and Mail Update The federal government has committed to holding a high-level summit over Toronto's gun violence, according to a coalition of Toronto's black leaders. The Coalition of African-Canadian Organizations met with Prime Minister Paul Martin in Ottawa Tuesday to urge him to recognize the issue as a national crisis. The group said Mr. Martin committed to the summit, which aims to bring together the federal, provincial, and municipal governments with community leaders in the new year to tackle the issue of gun violence head on. "This is a crisis," said Margaret Parsons, director of the African Canadian Legal Clinic. "It is a national crisis, it's a state of emergency. I don't think we want to wait for any more lives to be lost." Last Friday, an 18-year old was gunned down amongst 300 mourners at a funeral for another teenager, who had also fallen victim to gun violence. Both were young black men and the 18-year old's death marked the city's 69th homicide this year, 48 of which have come by way of the gun. The murder also prompted the church's pastor to call on Mr. Martin in vain to evoke the War Measures Act to stop the violence. The shooting did, however, elicit a promise for police presence at any gang-related funeral in the city. In addition to the summit, the group also called on the federal government for more money to build critical social and economic programs for young people in troubled neighbourhoods. All three levels of government have come under fire over the issue in recent months and with a federal election pending, the issue is quickly headed to the forefront of the federal agenda. The Ontario provincial government has allocated additional funds for Toronto's guns-and-gangs task force and earlier this month the federal government said it intends to introduce legislation that would enforce mandatory sentencing for gun crimes. The feds also committed to a $50-million, five-year plan to expand its crime prevention strategy to include a gun violence and gangs-prevention fund. On Monday, Toronto Mayor David Miller and Human Resources Minister Belinda Stronach announced $1-million in funding for a new youth job counselling centre in the city. After the announcement, Mr. Miller told reporters the problem was not just for politicians to deal with, and he urged witnesses to gun-crimes to provide information to the police, as well as urging others in the community to hire young people from disadvantaged neighbourhoods. In perhaps somewhat more misguided strategy, Immigration Minister Joe Volpe was asked Tuesday by one of his Liberal colleagues to prevent rap artist 50 Cent from coming to Canada. Born Curtis Jackson in Queen's, N.Y., 50 Cent is scheduled to launch a Canadian tour Dec. 3 in Vancouver, with stops in Halifax, Saint John, Montreal, Quebec City, Toronto, and Ottawa. But the rapper promotes gun violence, says Toronto MP Dan McTeague, who wants Mr. Volpe to turn back 50 Cent at the border. "I don't think people in Toronto or any urban centre need or want to hear Mr. Jackson's message right now," Mr. McTeague said. The musician performed in Toronto in 2003, where Mr. McTeague points out there was a shooting. "I think it's time we send a message of our own to those who glorify violence that their gratuitous violence and movies are not welcome in our country," Mr. McTeague said. "We need to do a better job at protecting Canadians from people who's message runs counter to all of our efforts of trying to curb gun violence." The rapper has a criminal record, and would be required to obtain a ministerial permit to enter Canada, although such permits are issued regularly, he added. A spokesman for Mr. Volpe said he was unaware Mr. McTeague's letter and was unable to comment on whether the government would consider such actions. With reports from Canadian Press ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:06:59 -0600 (CST) From: Lee Jasper Subject: Another gun crime lobby group Not to be outdone by UTAG. Toronto Star Editorial: Summit on gun crime Nov. 22, 2005. 01:00 AM The Coalition of African Canadian Organizations has, for months, been calling for a summit of government leaders - federal, provincial and municipal - on the gun crime ravaging this community. As long as it doesn't occur during a federal election, which would turn the event into a callous campaign publicity circus, the Prime Minister should agree to the proposed summit, as should Premier Dalton McGuinty and Toronto Mayor David Miller. The CACO's preliminary plan includes: - - Establish a federal-provincial and cross-border task force to address the trafficking of guns and narcotics. - - Provide for the police to start keeping race-based statistics. - - Establish an independent civilian review of police misconduct. - - Repeal the Safe Schools Act, or as Ontario's NDP leader, Howard Hampton, calls it, "The Gang Recruitment Act." - - Establish a court diversion program for blacks. - - Initiate a skills training and employment access program targeted to blacks. Tornto Star Coalition calls on PM to declare gun crisis Nov. 22, 2005. 06:50 PM OTTAWA - A coalition of African Canadian groups wants the federal government to declare Toronto's gun violence a national crisis. A number of the coalition's representatives met with Prime Minister Paul Martin in Ottawa today. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:13:18 -0600 (CST) From: wrpa Subject: Re: Rex Murphy >From: Morley Lymburner [mailto:publisher@blueline.ca] >Sent: Tuesday November 22, 2005 10:30 AM >To: national@cbc.ca >Cc: Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1 >Subject: Rex Murphy > >Rex... I am normally in agreement with your commentaries and find some >common ground in at least some portions of it. Unfortunately I can not >go along with your passionate remarks regarding the gun registry. It >would appear you were letting your heart take control of your head in >this matter. > >Certainly the tragedy of the wholesale slaughter of Toronto's youth is >one that can raise passions... but blaming the gun registry?! If your >remarks are accurate I think you should have gone further suggesting the >motor vehicle registry is a travesty for not stopping these pollutants >in the gene pool. After all every one of them drive cars. > >Rex the REAL proponents of the gun registry never suggested it was going >to stop homicide. It was designed as a registry to record who has a >weapon. The last line shows the real problem. This guy and guys like him look at a gun and see a weapon. Not only that but he has a superiority problem. Only people like him (the REAL proponents) are intelligent enough to understand the issues. Only his perspective is a valid one. If guys like him had power we would be living in a police state. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:14:26 -0600 (CST) From: "Todd Birch" Subject: CPC and The Firearms Registry With a Federal election looming, it is time to put pressure on Stephen = Harper and all CPC candidates to commit to scrapping the Registry. It needs to be brought up at each and every candidates meeting and all = party leader debates. Quite frankly, if the CPC does NOT support scrapping the Registry, all = we would accomplish in dumping the Liberals is punishing them by = changing the hand in our pockets. TB ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:14:49 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Lowe Subject: Re: Smoker was shot for not sharing, police say Joe wrote: > It seems like the police are really really looking for these two thugs. > Police say they are both males. One male is heavily built, with shaved > hair > and a goatee. Police also tell us the other thug is skinny and about 5' > 10'' tall. If our "professional" police can not be any more describtive > than this of their suspects no wonder they don't find the criminals. Maybe the problem is we don't have professional witnesses... Question: was the description provided by the police - or by the victims? Victims who might not unsurprisingly be somewhat vague in their description. After all, it wasn't the police who observed and provided the description of the assailants. Why don't you ask Len Miller and Joe Hill how many times during their carer they have gotten radically different descriptions of the same person - including different descriptions of race. They had short blond hair - or perhaps it was long black and curly. They had a red hoody on - - or was it a jean jacket. They had earrings - or perhaps it was a tattoo on their neck. Better yet... perhaps a real expert should start an online course on how to be an observant witness while the victim of a crime so people wouldn't always be such damned poor witnesses when describing complete strangers to police. Or take up lecturing police on the way they can get more precise descriptions from victims. Here's a thought: maybe we should criticize victims who give vague descriptions to police at the same time we're sneering at police when they pass on those vague descriptions to the public. But let's just say that "black" was added to the description. If you added "black" to "skinny and about 5'10" tall"... just how many people in Toronto would that describe? Say... more than three? Police know, of course, that description isn't going to allow people to recognize somebody as the described person when they pass them on the street. Hell, Karla Homolka is walking around in Canada every day right now - when was the last time somebody recognized her since the first time and sicc'd the media on her. What the police are hoping is that somebody who knows these thugs or recognized them when this happened will rat them out. Like all the other shootings, the community is silent and these thugs are walking openly among the community they live in. Your contempt and rage at the police because of the quality of these descriptions is slightly misplaced. You'd be a little more on target to go after the people giving police descriptions for being poor witnesses - - or refusing to speak up at all. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 05:50:18 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: Re: 30% error rate acceptable I found it - it was Austin's predecessor, Jean Valin who said this, which is why I wasn't coming up with it: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Digests/v02n700-799/v02n796.txt Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:10:08 -0600 From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 1" Subject: "FEDS BALK AT RECALLING GUN APPLICATIONS" PUBLICATION: The Edmonton Journal DATE: 99.01.07 [...] New forms have been printed to say spouses cannot be used. But the old ones remain in use because a 30-per-cent error rate is considered acceptable, said Jean Valin, spokesperson for the federal Canadian Firearms Centre in New Brunswick. The centre processes the applications. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 06:35:08 -0600 (CST) From: "Bruce Mills" Subject: My letter to Blue Line Magazine Just submitted, not yet printed. Have you written a letter today? - ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Mills To: Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 7:20 AM Subject: Re: Rex Murphy I really wish the police would stop supporting the Firearms Act - especially when they use such specious arguments to do so. The Firearms Act was touted as a "public safety" initiative, designed to "keep guns out of the hands of those who should not have them". If "reducing homicides" isn't in the interest of "public safety", I don't know what is. It certainly isn't keeping guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them! The problem isn't "rifles and shotguns" - its CRIMINALS! Any cop who relies on the Firearms Registry to tell them what dwellings have guns in them is going to have a very short career. Jean Valin, one-time spokesman for the CFC, is on record as having said that a 30% error rate is something he considers "acceptable". How do you feel about having a 30% chance being wrongly advised there isn't a gun in a home? And of course, there's a 100% chance it won't tell you when a criminal has a gun, because as you say, criminals don't register their guns - of any kind. Would you find those kinds of casualty rates "acceptable"? The "very strong gun lobby" you mention is made up of individual gun owners, and an assortment of unco-ordinated pro-gun organizations. Unlike the Canadian Professional Police Association, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, and the Coalition for Gun Control, we are not registered lobby groups who receive government funding for their anti-gun proselytizing. We are just standing up for our rights. I'm sorry - when it comes to making the jobs of police "easier" or my rights, I'm going to go with "my rights" every time! Gun owners are not going to support police who don't support them or their rights. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V8 #661 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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