From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V9 #493 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, June 6 2006 Volume 09 : Number 493 In this issue: Trouble in the backwoods re: City proposes gun crimes registry [Fwd: Fw: Cheers for Australia - Interesting Read] Registry Re: [Fwd: Fw: Cheers for Australia - Interesting Read] Fw: Stephen Hume Re: [Fwd: Fw: Cheers for Australia - Interesting Read] My letter to the Toronto Star Stephen Hume's dialogues: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:58:06 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Trouble in the backwoods http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149545411939&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467 Trouble in the backwoods Local man recalls finding group huddled in snow Area allegedly used as terrorist training camp ANNA PIEKARSKI STAFF REPORTER Jun. 6, 2006. 09:48 AM WASHAGO, Ont.—Mike Côté moved to Ramara Township to get away from the violent streets of Toronto, but only half a kilometre behind his country home a group of men were allegedly training to be terrorists. It was a cold, rainy day in December — the week between Christmas and New Year's — when Côté found the men huddled in the snow near his property, about 150 kilometres north of Toronto. He said he didn't know how many were there — they hid behind the trees — but he spoke with the leader, who complained of his group's inexperience in the bush. "He said, `I've got to show these kids everything. They don't know anything. They can't even keep their feet dry,'" Côté recalled. In a way, Côté wasn't surprised by the encounter — police had been by several weeks earlier, wondering if he'd seen strangers in the area. After speaking with the leader, who looked to be about 30, Côté figured he'd found the group police were interested in. "I saw footprints in the snow that shouldn't be there. I saw the guys, so I called the police." He was quickly warned to keep quiet about the encounter, but yesterday, following last Friday's arrest of 12 adult men and five youths, all male, he talked a bit about what he'd seen. The group's leader told Côté the young-looking men nearby were "extreme camping" and, although they were dressed in winter camouflage coats, Côté remembered they looked cold and uncomfortable. Côté, who owns 40 hectares of land, said he knew the men had been on his property — their tracks were plainly visible in the snow — and explained they were later on his neighbour, Dan English's, property. "I told him, `you're trespassing.' And he said, `It's only trespassing if someone tells you to get off the land.'" Police have said property in the area had been used as a training camp by a group of Toronto-area men arrested last Friday on terrorism-related charges. That didn't come as much of a surprise to local residents, who told the Star they've seen men wearing camouflage military fatigues in the area. Côté figures the men he encountered were probably in the dense bush for about a week, but never built a fire. They also took pains to make sure the campsite and lean-to they built were shrouded by trees and couldn't be seen from the air. But they were clearly out of their element — Côté said the men tried to walk through a marsh along his snowmobile trail, but several stepped off the trail and fell through the marsh ice. Although Côté said he didn't see any guns when he visited the camp, he later found the colourful evidence of a paintball battle on the white snow. Minivans and a Jeep, parked on a rarely used path nearby with only a few houses, would signal the group's presence, Côté recalled. Cooper's Falls Rd. is usually quiet. That's why Côté moved to the area, just outside the village of Washago, two years ago. The neighbours are friendly and it's peaceful. There are more mosquitoes than people. His children play in the backyard and a trail leads to the forested land he owns, an area he uses for snowmobiling and riding his ATV, but a place these men used for training. "There's a lot of trees for a bullet to travel through," Côté said, adding people often hunt in the area and it's not uncommon to hear a shot echo in the distance. Sandra and Dan English knew someone was trespassing in the bush at the back of their farm around Christmas time, but before they had a chance to investigate, a police officer arrived at their door and told them to stay away. "We were told not to say anything to anyone about it," Sandra English said yesterday in a telephone interview from her home on Cooper's Falls Rd. in Severn Bridge, just north of Washago. English refused to say how much she knew about the activities on the 40-hectare farm she and her husband, Dan, have owned for the past 35 years and on which they run a cattle and hog operation. She said she wasn't surprised to hear about the arrest of 17 terror suspects in Toronto on the weekend and immediately linked them with the activities on their property. "I knew right away that there was a connection with what had been happening here," she said. Bill Duffy, mayor of Ramara Township, said he wasn't surprised that alleged terrorists targeted his township for their training grounds. "I'm not surprised because there is a lot of rough rural land here and lots of dead-end roads that you can drive on for five or six miles and not see anyone," he said. "And we are not that far from Toronto. You can be here in one hour and 15 minutes." Down the road, a neighbour, who didn't want to give her name, said she never saw the men on her property, which borders the area where they had camped. Her home sits on 20 hectares of land alongside Cooper's Falls Rd. She said several police officers live along the road, too. "I saw two deer running through the field this morning," she said, adding she doubted the men would venture into the open area. "I remember when you used to be able to leave your door open," she said, a hint of fear in her voice. "It will be okay now, as long as you catch them and get rid of them." WITH FILES FROM ROBERTA AVERY ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:00:58 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Subject: re: City proposes gun crimes registry From: owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Majordomo User) Subject: New York City proposes gun crimes registry http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=local&id=4239326 City proposes gun crimes registry Eyewitness News (New York - WABC, June 5, 2006) City officials said Monday that those convicted of gun crimes here in New York City would have to register, similar to sex offenders, under a new law. It's being hailed as the gun registry act -- one of several measures that Mayor Bloomberg wants pushed through City Council. This is part of his ongoing effort to crack down on guns in the city. Under the plan, offenders convicted of criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree would have to list their addresses and check in every six months, for four years after their convictions. Bloomberg said these offenders are being targeted "because as a group they are highly prone to committing repeat violent crimes." - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The up side to this is that it targets criminals convicted of "gun crimes". The down side to this is that "gun crimes" and "criminal possession of a weapon" have nebulous meanings. Will gungrabber Bloomberg include peaceful "paper" criminals along with those committing violent criminal offences using firearms into his gun crimes registry? My feeling is that Bloomberg could be using a deceptive way of ostracizing, demonizing and vilifying nonviolent firearms owners by directly listing and linking them to violent criminals for the promotion of his antigun agenda. Yours in Tyranny, Joe Gingrich White Fox ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:30:05 -0600 (CST) From: rbaker Subject: [Fwd: Fw: Cheers for Australia - Interesting Read] Three Cheers for Australia! Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks. A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you," he said on national television. "I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia, one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option," Costello said. Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off". "Basically, people who don't want to be Australians, and they don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then they can basically clear off," he said. Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. AMERICA and Canada..... ARE YOU LISTENING? Australia-The Right to Leave Our Country - YOU Have the right ...the right to leave ! After Sydney not wanting to offend other cultures by putting up Xmas lights. After hearing that the State of South Australia changed its opinion and let a Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license with her face covered. This prompted this editorial written by an Australian citizen. Published in an Australian newspaper. Quote: IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the language! Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian,right wing, political push but a fact because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, Because God is part of our culture. We will accept your beliefs and will not question why, all we ask is that you accept ours and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us. If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like " A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means keep your culture but do not force it on others. This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, "THE RIGHT TO LEAVE". If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted. Thank you! Three Cheers for Australia! We could learn a lesson from this Rae ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:30:22 -0600 (CST) From: rbaker Subject: Registry The police also use the toilet that many times a day and it proves to be a dumping place for nasty things. The taliban have a place , but Hell is is for special people and I have heard that they are turned away. Would still like to know what they expect from 20 virgins when they are dead. Some are dead long before that. Bad information. Rae Baker ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:51 -0600 (CST) From: Edward Hudson Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fw: Cheers for Australia - Interesting Read] On 2006 Jun 06, at 8:30 AM, rbaker wrote: > > Three Cheers for Australia! > Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on > Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted > radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks. I would like the URL to this article. Thanks. Eduardo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:53:55 -0600 (CST) From: "Todd Birch" Subject: Fw: Stephen Hume - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Birch" To: "Stephen Hume" Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 8:41 AM Subject: Re: Stephen Hume > OK, we'll be formal..... > > Dear Mr. Hume > > An 'ad hominem' attack can be directed at an identifiable group as well as > an individual. Unlicensed criminals can and do misuse unregistered guns - > ergo, legal gun owners are likely to do the same. Invalid as an argument. By > supporting this myth, you are in effect vilifying legitimate gun owners who > will never misuse their firearms. > Lets not forget that Gamil Gharbi (the shooter at L'Ecole Polytechnique in > Montreal) was licensed and used a registered firearm. I'm sure you're aware > of other cases were the shooter was either disallowed by law (Rozko in > Mayerthorpe, Alberta) or otherwise fell through the cracks of the system, > mandatory registration notwithstanding. > > Licensed or not, registered or not, it is the individual choice to misuse > any object. Regulating or controlling human behaviour by decree has never > been successful. If that were possible, we'd have no crime of any kind as > somewhere there is a law governing everything. > > And yes, we find that most of the anti-gun rhetoric and hyperbole is based > on ignorance rather than fact. This is easily dispelled through education > and exposure to the positive side of firearms ownership. > > If the energy and money spent on criminalizing lawful firearms owners was > directed instead at criminals, it would have a meaningful effect. But in > order to appear to be handling a non-existent problem (i.e. a gun control > problem amongst lawful owners), the emphasis is being put on the wrong > people. Why? They are easy targets with a history of non-violent compliance > with law. > > No direct correlation between firearms and violence has ever been recorded. > Switzerland is a land abounding in guns of all kinds but is not a violent > society. Violent crime there is punishable by life at hard labour. The Third > World nations are at the opposite end of the scale, so it has more to do > with the moral attitude and social conditions than the presence of firearms. > > Let's not forget the stated agenda of ex-justice minister Alan Rock whose > vision of Canada was a country wherein only the army and police would have > guns. That is a pretty good description of an authoritarian, totalitarian > regime, many of which exist in the world. The history is that registration > is a precursor to confiscation. > > Can't happen here? The Australians, New Zealanders and Brits would argue the > point. And violent crime increased in every case. We have delayed > confiscation already through the grandfathering and prohibition of certain > classes of firearms. This in no way has any demonstrable affect on crime. > > Todd Birch > > > Dear Mr. Birch: > > An ad hominem attack would be directed at some individual. Whom have I > attacked? Certainly not Mr. Mills. I have said that I find much of the > clamour to be based in ignorance rather than data -- that's hardly ad > hominem since it addresses the climate of discussion and not some > individual. > > Stephen Hume > The Vancouver Sun > shume@islandnet.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:04:12 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fw: Cheers for Australia - Interesting Read] Edward Hudson wrote: > On 2006 Jun 06, at 8:30 AM, rbaker wrote: > > >>Three Cheers for Australia! It can be found in various places all over the 'net. I'd check out the Snopes.com entry, it has some deeper background about this: http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/australia.asp Yours in Liberty, Bruce Hamilton Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:27:46 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: My letter to the Toronto Star Just submitted, not yet printed. Have you written a letter today? - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: The hypocrisy of tobacco bans Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:26:51 -0400 From: Bruce Mills To: Editor - Toronto Star The sanctimony of your editorial boggles the mind! It's hypocrisy to ban tobacco, but it isn't hypocrisy to ban the legally owned firearms of law abiding citizens? It's hypocrisy to ban tobacco, but it isn't hypocrisy to pass a law that literally steals people's internal organs, by transferring title of them over to the State? The only hypocrisy I see is at the Toronto Star. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:38:09 -0600 (CST) From: "Walter Martindale" Subject: Stephen Hume's dialogues: I have also had a dialogue with Mr. Hume. Here's my last response to him: (This discussion was on Friday last week) Statistics - what a wonderful thing to mess with. I forget to mention "annually" a few hundred incidents, and you jump up with a 35 year running total that includes suicides (how many single car rollovers or head-ons with busses are suicides, does anyone know?) and accidents. Let's see - 50k/35=about 1,400, annually, 80% of which are suicide or accidents. 1.4k * 0.8 = 1120, or about 280 homicides/year. gee, that's about a few hundred incidents a year. In a population of 30 million (presently), that's about 0.0000093 of the population, annually. I think we're pretty safe with those numbers. The other deaths, even if they're all added together still add up to a very small number, overall, considering that the population of Canuck land has grown from - what, about 22 million in 1970 to about 30 now? The rate of turnover is there - - we're presently dying off more slowly than we're making new ones or importing them. (Another statistic, the death rate in humans is 100%) The car thing is silly. I get a million bucks liability insurance with my shooting membership for about $10.00 yearly. Safe, that's what gun ownership in Canada is from an actuarial standpoint. If I forget to renew my drivers licence, or forget to register my car and leave it in the garage, nobody comes to arrest me as a criminal for being illegally in possession of a car (which, as you must know, in Canada is responsible for a hell of a lot more death and injury than guns). If Myriam Bedard had committed the horrendous crime of forgetting to renew her PAL while at a biathlon competition in Europe, she'd be an Olympic Gold Medallist damned criminal for owning a (gasp) weapon without a license, and the registration on the firearm would also lapse with her license. Nobody is going to confiscate your car for destruction because someone in Los Angeles drove a car through a crowd of movie goers (the day before the start of the 1984 Olympics). Suppose Marc Lepine (not his real name) had driven a car through a crowd of female engineering students, and kept driving back and forth over them, and when finished, committed suicide by driving off the Pont Jacques Cartier? Would we be banning cars, or would we be thinking about what a sick person he was? The firearms laws that existed prior to 1978 had more than enough punishment for criminal misuse of firearms, however they weren't well enforced (oddly enough, that's the complaint many police have today) I think the only thing that's improved since about 1978 (when the FAC was first required) are the "safe storage" laws, which make it a little slower for you to get your gun when your home invasion by a bunch of thugs looking for your guns, drugs, money, wife, or daughter is taking place. (That's sarcasm, I'm sure you recognize it.) You have to have a license to hunt and fish, but you don't have to have a license to buy the fishing rod, reel, line, net, or hooks. If you don't go fishing, you don't need a license, just like with your car. You can die by the side of the river when you're fishing by falling in (many do this in an inebriated condition) or by having your brains crushed by a Grizzly. I _think_ that the reason you need a permit to mess with your house is so that the local government can a) collect more taxes and b) ensure that your house will be sound from an engineering perspective. I'm only slightly paranoid about just how much the government and police (all of whom are supposedly employees of us regular citizens, paid (and paid, and paid) by taxpayers) know about my life and possessions. I compete in target competitions, hunt, and help some Alberta farmers with gopher and coyote problems, but I don't really think that our "leaders" (who really seem to forget that they are our "representatives" once elected) need to know, on a hackable database, what toys I have (incidentally, they're all registered, and I'm licensed). I don't register my hunting bow, and I have it from a couple of police, who responded to my call about a crossbow being used in Vancouver's Stanley Park, that they fear crossbows and archery equipment more than guns, because you can't hear them. New Zealand has a firearms licensing system (I have an NZ firearms license from when I worked there - 10 year expiry) - they abandoned the hope of registering firearms as something un-achievable - an Island nation, with only about 3.5 million people, that you can fit into Saskatchewan 2.5 times - how in )*&^&% does Canada think it possible to keep tabs on firearm ownership in a country this size with almost 10x the population and a land border with the Excited States? Anyway - neither of us is likely to convince the other of the futility and stupidity of the other's position on this - The firearm registry didn't do what it was supposed to do, it's a political knee-jerk reaction to acts by insane people, and it's an immense waste of OUR money - Some say well, the money's spent, we can't just throw it away, but others discuss throwing good money away after bad. Yes, you can have your opinions, I have mine, but as you say, we don't have to agree - I do however appreciate that in Canada we're still free enough that we can legally express our opinions. bye-bye. work to do. Walter ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V9 #493 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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