From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V10 #654 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, July 24 2007 Volume 10 : Number 654 In this issue: "Re: In a weekend of gun violence, 11-year-old's death..." Condemnations, but no consensus on handgun ban Criminals and gun bans Star editors back Bryant's asinine logic Re: Men charged in shooting have criminal past Letter to Star (just sent) ... Second arrest in murder... Fw: Bill C-21 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 00:31:30 -0700 From: Robert LaCasse Subject: "Re: In a weekend of gun violence, 11-year-old's death..." Subject: "Re: In a weekend of gun violence, 11-year-old's death 'heartbreaking'" On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 09:25:01 -0600 (CST), you wrote: |>------------------------------ |> |>Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 10:53:22 -0400 (EDT) |>From: Bruce Mills |>Subject: In a weekend of gun violence, 11-year-old's death 'heartbreaking' |> |> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070723.SHOOTING23/TPStory/TPNational/Ontario/) |> |>SHOOTINGS: WINNIPEG, HALIFAX, TORONTO STRUCK |>In a weekend of gun violence, 11-year-old's death |>'heartbreaking' |> |>JESSICA LEEDER |>With a report from Jennifer Lewington |>July 23, 2007 The real problem that Society is NOT usually aware of, is the huge amount of money GuvMints and Politicians pay out to the victims Protection/Compensation program....were talking 3 million dollars+++ a pop. Sure I'm on the morbid side of this, but for kind of money a lot of Parents would consider shooting their own kids at some point or another, costing the Country Trillions of Dollars in Compensation, Courts, Legal Begals, Hi-tech Incarcerations, and the list goes on..... Do we live in a "You Forever" Schizo era were everybody feels for everybody else, or are the police organisations sapping of these events to push there own armed society....I think the later... Too many armed gangs have a personal fixation of being so full of themselves that anybody else is disposable garbage to them...word for word... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 03:37:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Condemnations, but no consensus on handgun ban http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070724.GUNS24/TPStory/TPNational/Ontario/ Condemnations, but no consensus on handgun ban JENNIFER LEWINGTON AND OMAR EL AKKAD With a report from Karen Howlett July 24, 2007 Politicians of all stripes stepped forward to condemn the shooting that killed 11-year-old Ephraim Brown this weekend. But on a host of proposed measures aimed at reducing gun violence - especially handgun bans - there is no such consensus. That's in part because the handgun debate quickly morphs beyond the boundaries of Toronto and into the often antagonistic world of Canada-wide politics. "It's an East-West issue," said Alok Mukherjee, chairman of the Toronto Police Services Board, who is among those stepping up efforts to lobby for a ban on handguns, despite political resistance from the federal government. "It is us in Eastern Canada [calling for a ban], but out west there is strong opposition. Given the importance of the West to all three [federal] parties, they don't want to take any action to alienate support there," he said. Mayor David Miller blasted federal politicians yesterday for failing to enact a handgun ban. "Having a safe city is about getting guns off the street. It is essential that we end this fiction that we can allow so-called collectors to own handguns in this country and remain safe," he said. "It is also essential that we end the fiction we cannot do anything about lax U.S. gun laws ... it is time our national government acted to secure the border and to speak up to the U.S. to end the flow of guns into Canada and to legislate all handguns to be illegal." Still, there is no unanimity on the issue, even among police officials. At a June meeting of the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police, there was "a very intense debate" about endorsing a ban on handguns, said Joe Couto, director of government relations and communications for the organization. "The question is quite complicated," he said. At the suggestion of Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair, the new president of OACP, the chiefs' group will look at the "legal and practical implications for police of a handgun ban," Mr. Couto said. One topic of debate is what scope individual provinces might have to supplement current federal laws related to guns, he added. Ontario Attorney-General Michael Bryant also supports a handgun ban. "We have to try and move the yardstick to get some changes to render some good out of this tragic weekend," he said in an interview yesterday. "That means a handgun ban ideally," or at least changes at the federal level to close loopholes in the current legislation. Mr. Bryant argued the handgun issue isn't necessarily an East-West one, saying that handgun killings affect people in cities across Canada, and with each shooting consensus grows for a ban. "The simple and brutal reality that if there is no gun, there is no funeral," he said. Mr. Bryant pointed to Chicago, a city about the same size as Toronto but with 10 times the annual gun killings. "We have gun control in one country and we don't in another country." Yesterday, Ontario Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory criticized the provincial government for not doing enough to stem the flow of illegal handguns into Canada from the U.S. For example, he said, there are only two dogs at the Windsor border crossing that can sniff out explosives and guns. Mr. Tory also said prosecutors and the courts need to enforce existing laws more rigorously to ensure that there are serious consequences for those who use guns to commit a crime. Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day said a handgun ban is not the answer. "We've looked at other jurisdictions that have put in bans on handguns and it has not reduced crime with firearms, crime with handguns," he told CTV Newsnet. "What does reduce crime with firearms, what is effective, is to have more officers on the street, which we are funding at the federal level." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:15:22 -0500 From: 10x <10x@telus.net> Subject: Criminals and gun bans It is of note that Monte Kwinter is Minister of Community Safety & Correctional Services in Ontario. The criminals who are being released by the jails and the court system who go on to commit more crimes are ultimately his responsibility. Rather than Mr. Kwinter dealing with these miscreants and getting them off the streets where they are a danger to the public he is "Getting guns" off the streets". A wonderful sound bite but it leaves THE CRIMINALS ON THE STREETS. Mr. Kwinters solution, take away the guns of the law abiding citizens and that will somehow stop these criminals from killing innocent bystanders and each other. Criminals are killing each other on the streets and those who should be putting government in motion to deal with violent criminals are saying "Hey ban handguns - blame every gun owner in Canada.." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:38:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Barry Glasgow Subject: Star editors back Bryant's asinine logic Cc: ON Toronto Star , AB Calgary Herald , AB Calgary Sun , AB Edmonton Sun , AB Edmonton Journal , AB Grande Prairie Herald-Tribune , AB Red-Deer Advocate , BC Victoria Times-Colonist , BC Merrit Herald , BC 100Mile Free-Press , BC Abbotsford News , BC Aldergrove Star , BC Burnaby News Leader , BC Burnaby Now , BC Campell River Mirror , BC Castlegar News , BC Chilliwack Progress , BC Cloverdale Reporter , BC Commox Valley Record , BC Cowichan News Leader , BC Creston Valley Advance , BC Kamloops Daily News , BC Kelowna Capital News , BC North-Thompson Star-Journal , BC Omineca Free Press , BC Prince George Free Press , BC Quesnel Observer , BC Salmon Arm Observer , BC Smithers Interior News , BC Squamish Chief , BC Terrace Standard , BC Thompson Times , BC Vancouver Province , BC Vancouver Sun , BC Vernon Morning Star , BC Williams Lake Tribune , Guelph Mercury , National Post , NB Fredericton Daily Gleaner , "NB Moncton Times & Transcript" , "NB St.John Telegraph-Journal" , "NF St.Johns Telegram" , NS Cape Breton Cape Breton Post , NS Halifax Chronicle-Herald , NS Halifax Daily-News , NWT The Yellowknifer , ON Kingston Whig-Standard , ON Ottawa Citizen , "ON Brockville Recorder & Times" , ON Toronto Globe and Mail , ON Woodstock Sentinel-Review , ON Ottawa Metro , ON Ottawa Dose , ON Durham News-Advisor , ON Flamborough Review , ON Flamborough Post , ON Hamilton Spectator , ON Hill Times , ON London London FreePress , ON Milton Canadian-Champion , ON Missisauga News , ON Niagara-Falls Review , ON Oakville Beaver , ON Ottawa Sun , ON Sault Star , ON Sudbury Star , ON Toronto Sun , ON Toronto Star , ON Windsor Star , Peterborough Examiner , QC Montreal Gazette , QC Sherbrooke Record , SK Regina Leader-Post , SK Saskatoon Star-Phoenix , Villager Guardian , Whitehorse Star , Winnipeg Free Press , Winnipeg Sun , York Guardian Looks like I just wasted my time with my previous letter to the Toronto Star, trying to point out the asinine thinking of those who would deprive law-abiding citizens of their property because of the actions of criminals. The Star's editors have chosen to cloud the issue with slanted journalism and deceptive data (see "Ban handguns before more die", July 24th) to sway their readers into backing a plan that has proved to be an expensive failure elsewhere. For one thing, we don't blame victims of theft for what criminals do with stolen property. Stolen cars are used in drive-by shootings but the Star's editors would never dream of blaming the cars or their owners for this. Why? Because they own cars, not guns. Contrary to the Star's thinking, there are deterrent effects when good citizens own firearms. A study of the British experience would show this but the Star's staff is not inclined to investigate things that would conflict with their firmly held left-wing beliefs. But worse is the Star's deceptive use of data to make their foolish point. Nowhere in their editorial does it tell us what percentage of illegal handguns were stolen from legal owners. It's less than 15% but their article is constructed as though it is the main source and that smuggling is merely "the other main way". Another deception is the 97, 000 firearms that have been stolen. What better way to inflate a problem than to add up the number over a 30 year period and not tell us what percentage were handguns and what percentage were stolen from the military and police. Reprehensible journalism - some would liken it to what we used to get out of Pravda. It makes them look like shills for the government rather than a voice of the people to keep this sort of madness in check. So, while the Star pays lip service to the measures that will actually have some impact on this problem, their editors whole-heartedly push a plan that won't even address less than 15% of the problem, will cost billions of dollars, will further alienate millions of lawful citizens (not just handgun owners will be outraged by this) and, most revealing has backfired everywhere it's been tried. Can you say "Left-wing ideology". Barry Glasgow Woodlawn, Ontario Canada ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:02:17 -0500 From: 10x <10x@telus.net> Subject: Re: Men charged in shooting have criminal past At 03:32 AM 7/24/2007 -0400, you wrote: > >http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070724.BROWN24/TPStory/Front > >Men charged in shooting have criminal past >Two accused of first-degree murder after tragic >weekend gunfight; Mayor Miller renews call for total >federal handgun ban > >GEOFF NIXON AND OMAR EL AKKAD >With a report from Jennifer Lewington >July 24, 2007 > >Toronto police and prosecutors have been trying to get >Gregory Sappleton and Akiel Eubank off the streets for >years. > >The two men, just out of their teens, have a history >of criminal charges. In Mr. Eubank's case, those >charges include weapons offences, allegations he >assaulted a police officer and, on one occasion, eight >counts of failing to comply with bail conditions. > >In the summer of 2005, Mr. Sappleton was arrested and >charged in connection with the notorious drive-by >shooting that wounded four-year-old Shaquan Cadougan - >charges that were withdrawn by prosecutors. Both men >allegedly have gang connections. Both are well known >to police. > >But in the early morning hours of last Sunday, the two >young men were not off the streets. Instead, they >allegedly ran into each other at a party, and began >shooting. When the ensuing chaos subsided, an >11-year-old boy lay dying. > >Police arrested both men yesterday and charged them >with first-degree murder. > >The killing prompted Mayor David Miller to renew his >call for a total federal handgun ban and help stemming >the flow of guns from the United States. How about charging those who were aware of the violent lives these two were leading with being accessories to murder? Those are the folks who turned these two violent miscreants back out into society. There should be a zero tolerance for violent criminal acts, just like there is zero tolerance for law abiding gun owners who are caught without the "proper papers".... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:49:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Rob Sciuk Subject: Letter to Star (just sent) ... Ban Liberals, not handguns ... a question of rights (fwd) Dear Sir/Madame, Letter writer Ron Charach is just plain wrong headed when he posits that "[gun crime] must be applied not just to wayward youth in the black community but to Canada as a whole". Gun crime is disproportionately present in the drug fuelled gang culture, and this same culture is disproportionately populated by black male youth. It is therefore incumbent upon the society afflicted by the problem to start looking for solutions from within, and not for well intended but misguided busybodies to impinge the rights of all Canadians as a whole for the sins and shortcomings of the very few. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms stipulates a freedom of association, a presumption of innocence and a protection against the tyranny of the masses by way of court protections. In a ruling a few years back, the Canadian supreme court stated as part of a judgement: "If the state, in pursuing a legitimate objective, uses means which are broader than necessary to accomplish that objective, the principles of fundamental justice will be violated because the individual's right will have been limited for no reason". Charach, and indeed and especially Attorney General Bryant, who should instead be striving to protect the rights of Canadians, are quick to give up for all Canadians the rights for which they have no personal regard. We must remember that in a democracy those rights were won at high cost, indeed. My grandfather died with a tyrant's shrapnel still in his body, and I'll not stand idly by while some pandering urban fools deal away forever those rights for the mistaken illusion of safety. Handgun ownership is a right which any suitably motivated and responsible citizen can peacefully and safely enjoy, and that's the way it should be. Sincerely, Robert S. Sciuk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:45:42 -0600 From: Rick Lowe Subject: Second arrest in murder... I read Ross's post about how stupid David Miller is to be calling for a ban on handguns. Miller isn't stupid - he's calculating. He knows exactly how utterly useless a ban on handguns is. The thing with Miller, Bryant, and the rest of that crowd is they know handgun bans won't work. But it's all about the calculus of felicity; how do you come out smelling like a rose and where are the votes? Presuming their actions have anything to do with actually trying to deal with the problem is a large error. These two men in particular are the two politicians most responsible for the terrible social issues plaguing this particular area of Toronto. Bryant as attorney general, and Miller as mayor. It's part of the job that they were elected to do, and they have the legal authority and access to the budget to address these issues. Both have shown themselves to be intellectually bankrupt when it comes to initiating strategies that address the root causes of this kind of crime and all the related social issues. In fact, they haven't even demonstrated the ability to tap into the human resources within their offices for ideas and programs they might have. Somewhere in the middle of all of this is also the idea that if you don't have to spend a dime of money, then that's a good thing. Which of course brings us to the latest round of calls to ban handguns. Both men have been utter failures at meeting their obligations to deal with these issues as the politicians in charge. Their mistakes and ineptitude are regularly being buried in Toronto. The public is outraged - with the help of the media, of course. And so, with the media pressing them for a statement, Bryant and Miller have two options. One: they can accept responsibility for their incompetence and failure and say they don't seem to be able to get a grip on dealing with some of their responsibilities. Of course, that would take a measure of integrity, a few feet of spine, thirty feet of guts, and maybe some basic personal honesty. Or two, they can attempt to shift public attention and responsibility for these problems on somebody else. "Somebody else", in this particular issue, is law abiding handgun owners. And hope like hell people focus their anger on handguns instead of asking them what the hell they've done so far to deal with the problem. My personal belief is that each and every time something like this happens, the message needs to go out that the problem is the failure of these two elected politicians to come up with something effective - not law abiding firearms owners. The second point I think that needs to go out is to challenge those calling for a handgun ban to call for a ban on booze at the same time. Their refrain is "nobody needs a handgun", they're made for only one purpose, blah, blah, blah. Ignore the "needs" issue for the moment and all the rest of the inaccurate claptrap. Anything that can be said about handguns can be said about booze: nobody needs booze, it isn't used in any recognized sport, you can't feed your family with it, you can't defend anyone with it, it's only purpose is to impair a person's thought processes. And best of all, it isn't hard to find any amount of peer reviewed research in refereed journals that shows that alcohol is a causal factor in approximately 50% of all violent crimes - and unlike firearms statistics, NOBODY is disputing those numbers. The number of people who die as a result of the criminal use of alcohol towers above the number of people who die as a result of the criminal use of firearms. You don't even have to get into those who die or are impaired for life due to alcoholism, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc, or the broken homes, career destroyed, etc and so forth. Every time somebody says "let's ban guns, nobody really needs them", I think the answer should be "fine, as long as we ban booze at the same time, because you don't need that either". Given the havoc alcohol wreaks in our society (I wonder how many at that gang shootout were pissed), you have to be a major hypocrite to demand banning firearms and not be fore banning alcohol at the same time... Anyways, that's my thoughts on that. And below is the start of a letter that includes those thoughts; it's generally typical of the kind of letters I send to the media these days. Needs some work yet, but the drift of the letter is obvious. _____________________________________________ Editor Of course Attorney General Michael Bryant and Mayor David Millar are calling for legally owned handguns to be confiscated from law abiding Canadians. These two individuals are the two politicians most responsible for dealing with the inner city problems that Toronto is experiencing. It's their responsibility and they have the authority and budget to do it with. Yet both have shown themselves to be utterly bereft of ideas or simple common sense. They have utterly failed, year in and year out, to address these issues. The result is the abject failure we see today, and the social disaster that this area of Toronto is. Neither man has sufficient integrity or backbone to accept responsibility for their ineptitude and utter failure. So instead - of course - they attempt to deflect the blame to somebody else. In this case, law abiding handgun owners. How typical - and how hypocritical that they wouldn't call for a ban on alcohol as well, when booze is a causal factor in 50% of all the violent crimes in Canada. If a ban on handguns will at least help somewhat, then a ban on booze will at least help somewhat as well. If bans will work for guns, why not booze? Oh wait, we tried that... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:55:39 -0700 From: "Todd Birch" Subject: Fw: Bill C-21 Just got this from my MP after a lengthy delay. You will note the emphasis on "improving front end screening of first-time firearms licence applicants" which shows that they still haven't got the idea that it isn't the people who are legally trying to own guns that are the problem. As for increasing mandatory sentences for gun crimes , yeah, right ......our 'touchy-feely' justice system is going to do this. The only deterrent is to make it so costly to commit a gun crime that it becomes unthinkable. This will not prevent crimes of passion, deter the mentally imbalanced or the committed terrorists who disregard all laws. It needs to be publicly stated just how many of the guns and shooters involved in the 'gand banger' incidents are legal. This continual tightening of the screws on lawful firearms ownership is just a continuation of what went before. Mr. Harris will be hearing more from me (and other, I hope) on this matter. TB Subject: RE: Bill C-21 Dear Todd, I apologize for taking this length of time to respond to your letter of concern regarding the gun registry. You are correct in stating that lengthy jail terms is a clear deterrent to gun crimes. We believe in targeting criminals - not duck hunters and farmers. That's why we allocated $14 million over two years in Budget 2007 to improve front-end screening of first-time firearms licence applicants. This will help prevent firearms from falling into the wrong hands. Since taking office, we have brought forward 11 new legislative proposals that will help crack down on crime, such as: 1. Restricting conditional sentences, such as house arrest, for serious crimes; 2. Imposing mandatory prison sentences for gun crimes; and 3. Keeping in prison the most violent, most dangerous repeat offenders in the country. However, the Opposition parties are blocking these and our other tough on crime bills from moving forward. It is my hope that these delay games stop. Canadians expect action. There is much to be done and working together with the provinces, stakeholders and communities we can develop projects that are proven to reduce crime. Thank you for writing Todd. Sincerely, Richard M. (Dick) Harris, M.P. Cariboo - Prince George, B.C. B.C. Caucus Chair 606 Justice Building Tel: (613) 995-6704 Fax: (613) 996-9850 Dear Sir I received your mail out regarding Bill C-21. As a long time gun owner and hunter, I fail to see how Bill C-21 will actually aid in scrapping the ineffective Firearms Registry. Friends who have recently purchased firearms tell me that they still go through the same rigmarole as in the past; they simply don't receive a sheet of paper as proof of registration. The previous Liberal government had no problem enacting legislation affecting millions of law abiding gun owners through Orders in Council. I urge the CPC to do the same in reversing these onerous restrictions that only affect honest citizens and have no impact on criminals. The Liberals are in political disarray and the NDP would be hard pressed to support the failed Registry based on value. The only way to do deter gun crime is through lengthy jail terms so that it becomes unthinkable to commit a crime with a firearm in Canada. Sincerely; Todd Birch ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V10 #654 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:akimoya@cogeco.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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