From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V10 #853 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, October 16 2007 Volume 10 : Number 853 In this issue: letter to London Free Press (just sent) .. Gun toting American jailed this is good Re: Gun-toting American sent to jail Re: Gun-toting American sent to jail OT: Canadians screwing Canadians Constitutional Challenge of Firearms Act resumes next week. [none] Re: Constitutional Challenge of Firearms Act resumes next week. [UK] Peter Squires: Straight shooter ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:49:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Rob Sciuk Subject: letter to London Free Press (just sent) .. Gun-toting American sent to jail (fwd) Dear Sir/Madame, In the case of an American visitor charged with bringing his gun into Canada, Justice Deborah Austin said "Americans might be shocked by the severity to which the Canadian justice system regards gun crimes", and she is correct, in a manner of speaking. It is amazing how harshly Canadian laws treats otherwise law abiding citizens who happen to trangress the incredibly complex Canadian Firearms Act, typically for paper crimes such as a lapsed license. Real criminals on the other hand seem to make bail even if arrested for murder with a firearm. American citizens still have the right to self defense, and would indeed find our laws incomprehensible, even as do many incredulous Canadians. It truly is hard to be a stranger in this very strange land. Sincerely, Robert S. Sciuk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 21:46:05 -0400 From: "ross" Subject: Gun toting American jailed It might be interesting to find out if customs asked him if he had a gun and replied no, then they searched. Customs cannot search without a warrant. This was upheld at the supreme court level two months ago where customs in a hunch searched a truck drilled holes in it and found six kilo of marijuana. The judge summarized by saying without a warrant, ALL EVIDENCE IS DISALLOWED. THE BORDER IS NOT A CHARTER FREE ZONE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 22:57:15 -0400 From: "ross" Subject: this is good intervenors like the Canadian Police Association and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police had warned it could have a "chilling effect" on police if officers feared they would be held civilly liable. Finally police will now be held responsible for kicking down doors seizing goods without the use of warrants. Exigenty circumstances has been the darling fallback of the police. many firearms owners have been taken down and hard by overzealous police who view their function as saving lives first rather than upholding the laws. They end up neither saving lives nor upholding the laws as their warrantless seizures bring the law into disrepute Now for some acountability ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 07:56:13 -0400 From: "mred" Subject: Re: Gun-toting American sent to jail - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Mills" To: Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 3:56 AM Subject: Gun-toting American sent to jail > http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/CityandRegion/2007/10/13/4572474-sun.html > > Gun-toting American sent to jail > > Sat, October 13, 2007 > By CP > > > SARNIA -- Americans who bring guns into Canada > illegally will be jailed, a Southwestern Ontario court > heard after a Virginia man was sentenced to three > months behind bars. > > Dabney Hardy, 64, of Richmond, Va., was convicted of > possession of a gun for which he didn't have a > Canadian licence and attempting to evade the Customs > Act by denying he possessed the gun. > > "He put the public safety of Canadians at risk," said > federal prosecutor Michael Robb. "This is an extremely > serious offence." > > Hardy was in custody 86 days. Robb said the sentence > might be perceived as harsh, but said Americans should > be made aware of Canadian gun penalties. Canada Border > Services Agency officers found a loaded .22-calibre > semi-automatic pistol in a case under the passenger > seat of Hardy's vehicle as he entered Canada July 18 > at the Blue Water Bridge. > > Hardy had never been convicted of an offence in Canada > and has no relevant criminal record in America, Robb > said. But once he brought a gun into Canada, he opened > the way for it to be lost, stolen or sold, putting > Canadians at risk, he said. > > Hardy's lawyer, Robert McFadden, said his client has a > medical condition that made his time in custody "very > hard." > > Justice Deborah Austin said Americans might be shocked > by the severity to which the Canadian justice system > regards gun crimes. > Professional Gun smugglers get off with a slap on the wrist as do murderers who are let out on bail (Two brothers in Toronto killed two women after losing control of their autos while speeding excessivley in a built up area ,are out on bail now, their lawyer says they werent necesarily speed racing. ) This law abiding ( no problems withthe law in the US or here previously)American who carries a gun for defensive purposes(perhaps because of physical problems) is given 3 months in jail ? wheres the justice here ? Its all right to kill two innocent people with a car and get out on bail ? but carry a gun for self defense and you get 3 months in the slammer ? What this tells me ? If youre going to "off" someone , use a car, not a gun.Using a car is ok . The penalty here is a slap on the wrist. If they had shot the two women they would still have been out on bail, as many other murderers have been in Toronto. Much the same as the group of American panhandlers who stabbed an innocent man to death in Toronto several weeks ago when he refused to give them any money. And this law abiding tourist gets 3 months in the slammer ? This isnt justice, this is the "old boys" bull****. He mustve had a stupid lawyer . ed/ontario ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 06:57:25 -0500 From: 10x <10x@telus.net> Subject: Re: Gun-toting American sent to jail At 03:56 AM 10/14/2007 -0400, you wrote: > >http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/CityandRegion/2007/10/13/4572474-sun.html > >Gun-toting American sent to jail > >Sat, October 13, 2007 >By CP > > >SARNIA -- Americans who bring guns into Canada >illegally will be jailed, a Southwestern Ontario court >heard after a Virginia man was sentenced to three >months behind bars. > >Dabney Hardy, 64, of Richmond, Va., was convicted of >possession of a gun for which he didn't have a >Canadian licence and attempting to evade the Customs >Act by denying he possessed the gun. > >"He put the public safety of Canadians at risk," said >federal prosecutor Michael Robb. "This is an extremely >serious offence." Why isn't that attitude taken towards Judges and Parole boards who let violent offencers out on the streets who do offend again and in some cases kill? Why isn't that the attitude for violent offenders who get to PLEA BARGAIN their charges? Is justice negotiable in Canada? Is it like haggling with a street vender in a third world country? The fact that there are plea bargain deals struck that reduce sentences shows that those in charge of presecution have no respect for the laws the police say were broken that result in the charges. Or are the charges bogus to begin with, piled on, and used as a LEVER later? There seems to be a double standard here. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:08:21 -0400 From: Paul Chicoine Subject: OT: Canadians screwing Canadians I know this is an off topic post to this digest but this is enough to make you want to pull your hair out or perhaps someone's else's. http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/story/4057797p-4662390c.html A Grand Forks snowmobile dealer said he's been ordered by Quebec-based Bombardier Recreational Products Inc. to stop selling snow machines, ATVs and watercraft to Canadians who are looking to take advantage of the rising value of the Canadian dollar. Ron Thompson, owner of Gateway Sports in Grand Forks, said over the course of the past two weeks Bombardier -- which manufacturers the popular Ski-Doo and Sea-Doo vehicles -- ordered him to impose a surcharge to Canadians of several thousand dollars on sales, and ultimately to not make any sales at all. "Canadians want to buy a Canadian product but I'm not allowed to sell it to them," Thompson said. "I had more than 35 calls from Canadians last week and another 10 calls this week," adding he had to turn those inquiries away. Thompson said Canadians can save several thousands of dollars on the purchase of a snow machine. The Renegade X 800 model sells for $10,000 at his shop, he said, adding it would go for $13,000 to $14,000 in Winnipeg. Thompson said Bombardier's standard policy had been for its dealers to impose a 7.5 per cent surcharge on all sales to Canadians. Then two weeks ago, Bombardier altered the surcharge fee to 7.5 per cent or $1,250, whichever is greater. Last week, Bombardier imposed a $3,000 surcharge on sales. And earlier this week, Thompson said a Bombardier representative told him not to sell to Canadians at all. "They said it's to protect the Canadian dealers but when the Canadian dollar (was at 70 cents) and Americans were going north to make their purchases, nobody was protecting my interests," Thompson said. Thompson said Bombardier will void the warranty on any craft purchased by a Canadian in the United States -- even if the purchase was initially made by an American -- and it has threatened to cancel dealership arrangements with dealers who sell to Canadians. "I'm paying $5,000 a month interest on the inventory I have but I'm not allowed to sell to Canadians who are trying to save some money," Thompson said. "It's just not right." Bombardier spokesman Pierre Pichette, vice-president of communications and public affairs, said the Quebec-based firm has always assigned geographic boundaries to its dealerships and financial penalties to enforce the terms of the agreements. Pichette said dealers are not allowed to sell to citizens of another country, adding the policy is based on market analysis and ensures that dealers can not only sell but also service the products they sell. Pichette said the penalty was repeatedly increased in the past two weeks to prevent American border dealers from buckling to pressure from Canadian customers. "We've had to make adjustments (to the penalty) for today," Pichette said, adding in the past dealers had to get permission from the company before it sold a product to someone from outside its boundaries and a financial penalty was always imposed. Pichette said the company policy also applies to Canadian dealers, adding they are not allowed to sell to Americans. aldo.santin@freepress.mb.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:52:14 -0500 From: "Bruce Montague" Subject: Constitutional Challenge of Firearms Act resumes next week. Dear Supporters: It's that time again where we prepare for battle in the court room. Next Monday October 22nd in the Superior Court of Ontario we continue with our arguments declaring much of the Firearms Act (Bill C-68) unconstitutional and therefore invalid law. We are specifically challenging the licensing scheme (PAL, or firearms license) because of how it violates our right to posses and use firearms. Our new lawyer Doug Christie has spent the summer (even during his vacation) getting up to speed on what the issues and arguments are. Our whole case management team is very pleased with Mr. Christie's comprehension of the basic principles at stake and his clear and articulate way of expressing our views. We anticipate that next week our arguments will finally get brought forward to Justice Wright in the most compelling way. We also expect that the hearing will conclude next Friday so that the judge can consider our arguments and render a decision. I should also mention that financial assistance is still needed in this fight. I mentioned in my previous newsletter that Dave Tomlinson, president of the NFA, passed away. Dave was heavily involved in this case and the NFA has been paying for much of the expenses incurred during our court hearings. Unfortunately, now that Dave is gone the NFA is understandably going through some readjustments and may not be able to continue helping us out financially as they did in the past. Expenses are quite high during our week in court, and any extra help you can spare would be much appreciated. This has been a long road for everyone involved in this case. All these obstacles that we've had to overcome over the past four years can be tiring at times, both on us and you. Fortunately we have been blessed to have the perseverance to continue on in our fight despite these obstacles. I also want to make sure you are aware of my gratefulness for all of you who have pitched in with moral and financial support. God bless you all. I highly encourage your attendance in court next week if at all possible. For those wishing to attend, the hearing is slated to last the whole week starting October 22 at 10:00 am. The hearing will be held at the Kenora Superior Courthouse, 216 Water St. Yours in Liberty, Bruce. Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. - - Calvin Coolidge, Past President of the United States. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:50:56 -0500 From: "Bruce Montague" Subject: [none] Dear Supporters: It's that time again where we prepare for battle in the court room. Next Monday October 22nd in the Superior Court of Ontario we continue with our arguments declaring much of the Firearms Act (Bill C-68) unconstitutional and therefore invalid law. We are specifically challenging the licensing scheme (PAL, or firearms license) because of how it violates our right to posses and use firearms. Our new lawyer Doug Christie has spent the summer (even during his vacation) getting up to speed on what the issues and arguments are. Our whole case management team is very pleased with Mr. Christie's comprehension of the basic principles at stake and his clear and articulate way of expressing our views. We anticipate that next week our arguments will finally get brought forward to Justice Wright in the most compelling way. We also expect that the hearing will conclude next Friday so that the judge can consider our arguments and render a decision. I should also mention that financial assistance is still needed in this fight. I mentioned in my previous newsletter that Dave Tomlinson, president of the NFA, passed away. Dave was heavily involved in this case and the NFA has been paying for much of the expenses incurred during our court hearings. Unfortunately, now that Dave is gone the NFA is understandably going through some readjustments and may not be able to continue helping us out financially as they did in the past. Expenses are quite high during our week in court, and any extra help you can spare would be much appreciated. This has been a long road for everyone involved in this case. All these obstacles that we've had to overcome over the past four years can be tiring at times, both on us and you. Fortunately we have been blessed to have the perseverance to continue on in our fight despite these obstacles. I also want to make sure you are aware of my gratefulness for all of you who have pitched in with moral and financial support. God bless you all. I highly encourage your attendance in court next week if at all possible. For those wishing to attend, the hearing is slated to last the whole week starting October 22 at 10:00 am. The hearing will be held at the Kenora Superior Courthouse, 216 Water St. Yours in Liberty, Bruce. Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. - - Calvin Coolidge, Past President of the United States. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:14:49 -0600 From: Dewey Subject: Re: Constitutional Challenge of Firearms Act resumes next week. Hi Bruce I Pray that it works out in your families favor..................... Dewey Would you Please send me your snail mail AD.... My puter crashed again,,and I've been having a heckuva time building another AD Roster.. Any spelling errors or omissions,,are all mine,,My eyes are in trouble and going South. L." Dewey" Dewis Calgary,Ab. Ca vemalt15@shaw.ca Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 2:52 PM Subject: Constitutional Challenge of Firearms Act resumes next week. > Dear Supporters: > > It's that time again where we prepare for battle in the court room. Next > Monday October 22nd in the Superior Court of Ontario we continue with our > arguments declaring much of the Firearms Act (Bill C-68) unconstitutional > and therefore invalid law. We are specifically challenging the licensing > scheme (PAL, or firearms license) because of how it violates our right to > posses and use firearms. > [EDIT] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 04:04:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: [UK] Peter Squires: Straight shooter http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/profile/story/0,,2191723,00.html Peter Squires: Straight shooter Chris Arnot talks to the media's favourite expert about teenage gun crime and the culture of violence Tuesday October 16, 2007 The Guardian Dominating one office wall is a large, dramatic and very bloody poster for the film Reservoir Dogs. On the desk lies what looks like a heavy-duty handgun. It turns out to be a plastic replica. "I use it as a prop for my lectures," says Peter Squires, professor of criminology and public policy at Brighton University. Squires is the country's most-quoted academic expert on gun crime, whose voice has been much in demand over recent months, not least by the BBC. Shortly after Gordon Brown finished his address to the Labour party conference, Squires was on Radio 4's The World at One giving his response to government proposals to counter the apparent spread of gun culture. His answers can be summarised as follows: "Increasing the police's stop and search powers won't help. The searches are carried out disproportionately on black youths, which makes them even more hostile to the police." What about five-year mandatory sentences for over-18s carrying guns? "A lot of these guys carry guns for protection. Getting shot and being sent down for five years are not comparable in their eyes. It's a minor discouragement." And hand-held metal detectors to target guns? "It's had mixed results in the States, depending on how good the technology is." Won't it get the guns off the streets? "No. They'll simply be displaced and pass into the hands of younger teenagers and children. That's been happening already. It helps to explain why we've had this spate of shootings, giving the misleading impression that the country's flooded with firearms. "The police have already targeted some of the main gang players very effectively. But one of the consequences is that those criminals have had to get rid of their guns quickly, handing them on to kids, who pass under the police radar. For them it's an induction into the culture, and part of the impulsive nature of youngsters is that they try to prove themselves. There have been five or six shootings in which very young people have been implicated. The same thing happened in the US in the early 90s. But there have been dramatic reductions in shootings in cities like Chicago through the use of clever, joined-up, integrated youth policies." However, last week's school shooting in Cleveland, Ohio, where a 14-year-old wounded four people before turning the gun on himself, shows that the problem on both sides of the Atlantic is clearly far from resolved. "We're going to have to accept that the police alone can't address this problem," Squires says. "Better intelligence needs to be shared between them and other agencies, and that might mean turning a blind eye to lesser crimes in order to get at gun-related violence. It's already beginning to happen in Manchester, where youth workers are targeting kids at risk." Squires has had some experience of that city. Along with Professor Chris Lewis from Portsmouth University, he spent a year trying to understand how the firearms phenomenon develops by cross-matching data from the Greater Manchester Police and carrying out an anonymous email survey with 50 of its officers about their perceptions of the problem. The criminologists were funded by the Engineering and Physical Science Research Council, which usually concentrates its resources on pure science. "The idea was that we would build a model to tackle gun crime in the same way that, for instance, you might develop methods to control malaria," Squires says. "I had reservations about that because crime is not a disease. Clearly a choice is involved." No prescription And as social scientists, he and Lewis could offer no clear medical prescription. The survey of officers revealed "a whole lot of grey areas, ambiguities and disagreements", concedes Squires. He reveals that he wanted to be a policeman from the age of seven. His ambition was almost within his grasp when he left school in Weston-Super-Mare and joined the Avon and Somerset force as a cadet. He was 16 years old - and 5ft 7in. And a half. "The assumption was that I'd grow the extra half an inch necessary to qualify," he says. But he was advised to do something else in the meantime. "So I thought I might as well go to university. I was fully expecting to rejoin as a graduate recruit." By the time he emerged from Bristol with a degree in sociology and social policy, the Thatcher government had come to power and promptly awarded a hefty pay increase to the police. "The result was the recruitment of a lot of very tall graduates," says Squires, smiling. He never did grow that extra half-inch. "But I'd caught the academic bug," he says. His PhD, Studies in the Criminalisation of Poverty, was completed in 1985. By then, he had been what he calls "a barrack-room lawyer" for the Bristol Claimants' Union. Then, when he moved to London, he joined the Labour party. "Our local MP at the time was David Mellor. I remember dressing up as Father Christmas to present him with a petition about benefit cuts, wrapped up in festive paper. Mellor barged me out of the way." Squires has no regrets about having to abandon his dreams of a police career. "I feel well off out of it," he says. "But I have retained a fascination with the themes and issues around police work." His interest in gun crime began in 1995, when "there was some scepticism about the relation of this issue to British social and public policy", as he points out in the preface to one of his seven books, Gun Culture or Gun Control?: Firearms, Violence and Society, published five years later. Firing at cats "I'd been doing some work on a Brighton housing estate, where there was concern about kids firing airguns at cats and windows. A man in his 30s told me, 'I've got a gun cabinet back there, you know. Two shotguns and a .22 rifle. And if anybody breaks in here, they can have some of that'. It made me think there was something going on. In the same week I was in a WH Smith's in London and I picked up a US magazine called Guns and Ammo, which carried an article about what firearms you needed to protect yourself against intruders." He was fascinated by how attitudes to weaponry polarised on each side of the Atlantic. "As I put the pitch for my book in, Dunblane happened. The British response was the ban on handguns. Three years later, it was Columbine. In America, they decided to post up the 10 commandments in all schools." Squires has been flying to and fro across the Atlantic at fairly regular intervals. In 2005, he was the only British academic invited to what was billed as an international symposium on human rights and self-defence at the George Mason University law school in Arlington, Virginia. "There was a debate on the case of Tony Martin [who shot dead an intruder at his Norfolk farmhouse]. The Americans couldn't get their heads around the idea that Martin had been sent to jail," he recalls. "I put forward an analysis that you can't base public policy on gut instincts, but my arguments were evidently considered irrelevant to the American way of life. "We can learn from methods to control gun crime in big cities in the US. But the gulf between our two nations' attitudes to gun ownership remains as wide as the ocean between us." Perhaps that's best illustrated by a sticker, picked up at shop in Chicago and now attached to one of the filing cabinets in his office. "Gun control," it reads, "means using both hands." ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V10 #853 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:d.jordan@sasktel.net List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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