From: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Cdn-Firearms Digest) To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V10 #895 Reply-To: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Sender: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Errors-To: owner-can-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Precedence: normal Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, November 11 2007 Volume 10 : Number 895 In this issue: "Police Discover Link Between Finnish School Shooter and U.S." What it was not . . Subject: "Police Discover Link Between Finnish School Shooter and U.S." Subject: "Report: Police Discover Link Between Finnish School Shooter and U.S. Plotter" Report: Police Discover Link Between Finnish School Shooter and U.S. Plotter http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,310361,00.html Saturday, November 10, 2007 Roger Boyes Tuusula, Finland - The YouTube killer who shot dead eight members of his school in Finland before turning his gun on himself had internet contacts with an American teenager who was planning a shooting spree in a high school in Philadelphia, it was claimed yesterday, according to a Times of London report. The disclosure could turn upside down previous assumptions about the dynamics of school massacres. Until now, teenage killers were regarded as depressed loners whose imagination had been stoked by aggressive computer games. Now it seems that information may have been shared by potential killers over the Internet: a virtual community of young people who idolize the 1999 Columbine High School murders, said the Times of London. Click here to read Times of London article on shared massacre plots. [ http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2842356.ece ] "It's highly probable that there was some form of contact between Pekka-Eric Auvinen and Dillon Cossey," a spokesman for the cyber crime department of Helsinki police said. Dillon Cossey, 14, was arrested last month on suspicion of planning to storm his old school, Plymouth Whitemarsh. Police acting on a tipoff found a 9mm semi-automatic rifle, handmade grenades, a .22 pistol and a .22 single-shot rifle at his home. Less than two weeks later Auvinen, already a member of a shooting club, was buying his first gun - a .22 pistol - and expressing interest in a 9mm semi-automatic. Police do not believe this to have been a coincidence. The two youths are thought to have made contact over two MySpace groups, "RIP Eric and Dylan" - a reference to Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, who killed 12 schoolmates at Columbine - and "Natural Selection". Dillon Cossey used the alias Shadow 19462 on internet forums. Overweight and bullied, he had been withdrawn from Plymouth Whitemarsh and was resentful. His MySpace profile lauded the Columbine killers as heroes.The 18- year-old Finnish killer made a rambling testimony on YouTube, clearly drawing on the rhetoric used in the Natural Selection group and related chat rooms. His YouTube account - under the pseudonym Sturmgeist89 with his "beloved" pistol and tributes to other mass murderers. It was viewed 200,000 times before being closed down after the Finnish high school killings on Wednesday. Police are trying to establish whether the Jokela massacre was in some way a copycat event or whether it resulted from an exchange of tips across the internet. Across Europe cyber-crime experts are nervous that some of the abuses on the net committed by Islamic fanatics could become a model for other marginalized groups. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:15:03 -0800 From: Len Miller Subject: What it was not . . To: jim hill , Susan Clairmont , Globe , Peter McKnight , Stock day To: Cdn-Firearms Digest Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 23:45:53 -0400 From: jim hill Subject: "Fw: Ottawa blasted...,$10-million thrown 'into the trash can'" Subject: "Fw: Ottawa blasted for killing long-gun registry contract,,$10-million thrown 'into the trash can'" Sent to the G&M - - ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim hill" To: "The Editor Toronto Globe and Mail" Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 11:44 PM Subject: Ottawa blasted for killing long-gun registry contract,,$10-million thrown 'into the trash can' > To the Editor, > > The liberals are great ones to talk about wasting money. It was they > who > killed the helicopter contract and it cost far more than a measly 10 > million to do it. The new choppers would be in place and saving lives > now > were in not for Chretien's pig headedness > > The Firearms Act was doomed from the start; it was knee jerk > legislation > that Government studies had already told them would not work. What > more > evidence did they need other than the handgun registry which had been > in > existence since 1934? Herb Gray, then Deputy prime minister in > response > to two questions in the House to wit since the inception of the Handgun > registry a/ How many crimes is it credited with having solved? And > b/how > many crimes did the handgun registry prevent? > > > His answer to both questions was NONE! > > Even though the Liberals knew that the handgun registry was useless > they > went ahead anyway and spent well in excess of 1 billion dollars for > another registry which has done nothing to curb firearms crime. > > I am amazed that they have the gall to criticize the Conservatives for > refusing to prop up what they know to be one of the biggest frauds > pulled > on Canadian Taxpayers. > > Jim Hill (RCMP, ret.,) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - -------------------------------------------- ''Gun control was not to control crime . . it was to control Kim Campbell'' A gang that couldn't shoot straight Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 23:45:53 -0400 From: jim hill < Subject: "Fw: Ottawa blasted...,$10-million thrown 'into the trash can'" Subject: "Fw: Ottawa blasted for killing long-gun registry contract,,$10-million thrown 'into the trash can'" Sent to the G&M - - ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim hill" < To: "The Editor Toronto Globe and Mail" < Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 11:44 PM Subject: Ottawa blasted for killing long-gun registry contract,,$10-million thrown 'into the trash can' To the Editor, The liberals are great ones to talk about wasting money. It was they who killed the helicopter contract and it cost far more than a measly 10 million to do it. The new choppers would be in place and saving lives now were in not for Chretien's pig headedness The Firearms Act was doomed from the start; it was knee jerk legislation that Government studies had already told them would not work. What more evidence did they need other than the handgun registry which had been in existence since 1934? Herb Gray, then Deputy prime minister in response to two questions in the House to wit since the inception of the Handgun registry; a/ How many crimes is it credited with having solved? And b/how many crimes did the handgun registry prevent? His answer to both questions was NONE! Even though the Liberals knew that the handgun registry was useless they went ahead anyway and spent well in excess of 1 billion dollars for another registry which has done nothing to curb firearms crime. I am amazed that they have the gall to criticize the Conservatives for refusing to prop up what they know to be one of the biggest frauds pulled on Canadian Taxpayers. Jim Hill (RCMP, ret.,) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ''Gun control was not to control crime . . it was to control Kim Campbell'' The Liberals' gun registry program was pointed at Kim Campbell, not crime. That's why it shot itself in the foot, says former justice adviser JOHN DIXON By=A0JOHN DIXON=A0 =A0=A0 Globe and Mail Wednesday, January 8, 2003 =96=A0Page=A0A11 We now know that the government's gun-control policy is a fiscal and=20 administrative debacle. Its costs rival those of core services like national defence. And it doesn't work. What is less well known is that the policy wasn't designed to control=20 guns. It was designed to control Kim Campbell. When Ms. Campbell was enjoying a brief season of success in her=20 re-election bid in the summer campaign of 1993, Mr. Chr=E9tien was kept busy reassuring what he called the "Nervous=20 Nellies" in his caucus that Ms. Campbell's star would soon fall. To bring her down, the Liberals planned to discredit her key=20 accomplishment as minister of justice . . . an ambitious ( though completely fraudulent) gun-control package. The supreme irony of the gun registry battle is that the policy was=20 selected because it would goad people who knew something about guns to public outrage. That is, it had a purely political purpose in the special context of a=20= hard-fought election. The fact that it was bad policy was crucial to the specific political=20 effect it was supposed to deliver. And so we saw demonstrations by middle-aged firearm owners, family men=20= whose first reflex was to respect the laws of the land. This group's political alienation is a far greater loss than the=20 $200-million that have been wasted so far. The creation of this new criminal class -- the ultimate triumph of=20 negative political alchemy -- may be the worst, and most enduring product of the gun registry culture=20= war. John Dixon is a hunter, and (was) president of the B.C. Civil=20 Liberties Association. =46rom 1991 to 1992, he was adviser to then-deputy minister of justice=20= John Tait. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Entends tu les chiens aboyer ?? Have you tried the loaded gun /pit bull test? Listen to your policemen . . Len Miller from Vancouver, where bodies are falling as fast as autumn leaves . .=20= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:33:12 -0700 From: "Ian Parkinson" Subject: Subject: Re: Pentagon putting finishing touches on 'Camp Justice' Mr. Ed wrote - >> If Canadian terror suspect Omar Khadr actually goes on trial next year, >> it >> will likely be here, at a makeshift legal compound the Pentagon has >> dubbed >> Camp Justice. >> > From all reports he murdered an unarmed medical personnel not an armed > soldier. > > If he was old enough to pull the trigger he is old enough to get the > penalty > for murder (if the report is true) > ed/ontario So we should put on trial all Canadians military personnel who kill Afghan civilians? Or, is there a double standard at work here? Jim Szpajcher St. Paul, AB ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:08:40 -0600 From: Dave Jordan Subject: Re: Date: Saturday, November 10, 2007 11:33 am Subject: > > "Who is going to charge who with unsafe storage?" They'll charge each other of course. That way, they can arrest each other, confiscate each other's gear, [and possibly each other's wife.], after spending about $10 million of our tax dollars on investigations, trials, royal commissions, etc., for about 10 years or more, etc., and then- forgetaboutit in the end. Isn't that what always happens with this kind of crap when "they" screw up? - -DRGJ "Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge where there is no river." - Nikita Khrushchev ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:03:09 -0500 (EST) From: mred@295.ca Subject: Re: Pentagon putting finishing touches on 'Camp Justice' > Mr. Ed wrote - > >>> If Canadian terror suspect Omar Khadr actually goes on trial next year, >>> it >>> will likely be here, at a makeshift legal compound the Pentagon has >>> dubbed >>> Camp Justice. >>> >> From all reports he murdered an unarmed medical personnel not an armed >> soldier. >> >> If he was old enough to pull the trigger he is old enough to get the >> penalty >> for murder (if the report is true) >> ed/ontario > > So we should put on trial all Canadians military personnel who kill Afghan > civilians? > If theyre guilty of murder, yes, and not killing armed combatants ? that would be justice served would it not. ? I cant see why anybody would want to kill women and children if they are unarmed ? Murder is murder is murder ed/ontario > Or, is there a double standard at work here? > > Jim Szpajcher > St. Paul, AB > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:03:17 -0500 (EST) From: mred@295.ca Subject: Re: Pentagon putting finishing touches on 'Camp Justice' > Mr. Ed wrote - > >>> If Canadian terror suspect Omar Khadr actually goes on trial next year, >>> it >>> will likely be here, at a makeshift legal compound the Pentagon has >>> dubbed >>> Camp Justice. >>> >> From all reports he murdered an unarmed medical personnel not an armed >> soldier. >> >> If he was old enough to pull the trigger he is old enough to get the >> penalty >> for murder (if the report is true) >> ed/ontario > > So we should put on trial all Canadians military personnel who kill Afghan > civilians? > If theyre guilty of murder, yes, and not killing armed combatants ? that would be justice served would it not. ? I cant see why anybody would want to kill women and children if they are unarmed ? Murder is murder is murder ed/ontario > Or, is there a double standard at work here? > > Jim Szpajcher > St. Paul, AB > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:08:03 -0600 From: Dave Jordan Subject: In Remembrance IN FLANDERS FIELDS In Flanders fields the poppies blow Between the crosses, row on row, That mark our place; and in the sky The larks, still bravely singing, fly Scarce heard amid the guns below. We are the Dead. Short days ago We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow, Loved and were loved, and now we lie In Flanders fields. Take up our quarrel with the foe: To you from failing hands we throw The torch; be yours to hold it high. If ye break faith with us who die We shall not sleep, though poppies grow In Flanders fields. - -John McCrae John McCrae's poem speaks of Flanders fields, but the subject is universal – the fear of the dead that they will be forgotten, that their death will have been in vain. Remembrance, as symbolized by the Poppy, is our eternal answer which belies that fear. Lieutenant-Colonel John McCrae Lieutenant-Colonel McCrae was born on 30 November 1872 in Guelph, Ontario. At age 14, he joined the Highfield Cadet Corps and, three years later, enlisted in the Militia field battery. While attending the University of Toronto Medical School, he was a member of the Queen’s Own Rifles of Canada. With Britain declaring war on Germany on 4 August 1914, Canada’s involvement was automatic. John McCrae was among the first wave of Canadians who enlisted to serve and he was appointed as brigade surgeon to the First Brigade of the Canadian Forces Artillery. In April 1915, John McCrae was stationed near Ypres, Belgium, the area traditionally called Flanders. It was there, during the Second Battle of Ypres, that some of the fiercest fighting of the First World War occurred. Working from a dressing station on the banks of the Yser Canal, dressing hundreds of wounded soldiers from wave after wave of relentless enemy attack, he observed how “we are weary in body and wearier in mind. The general impression in my mind is of a nightmare.” In May, 1915, on the day following the death of fellow soldier Lt Alexis Helmer of Ottawa, John McCrae wrote his now famous work, an expression of his anguish over the loss of his friend and a reflection of his surroundings – wild Poppies growing amid simple wooden crosses marking makeshift graves. These 15 lines, written in 20 minutes, captured an exact description of the sights and sounds of the area around him. Lieutenant-Colonel John McCrae left Ypres with these memorable few lines scrawled on a scrap of paper. His words were a poem which started, “In Flanders fields the poppies blow…” Little did he know then that these 15 lines would become enshrined in the innermost thoughts and hearts of all soldiers who hear them. Through his words, the scarlet Poppy quickly became the symbol for soldiers who died in battle. Sadly, Lieutenant-Colonel John McCrae died of pneumonia at Wimereux, France on 28 January 1918. He was 45 years old. http://www.legion.ca/asp/docs/rempoppy/allabout_e.asp - -DRGJ Support the Troops; https://www.cfpsa.com/en/canex/wyn/generalPublic/shoplist_e.asp?uid=873024&location=&dept=6 Write to the Troops; http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/messageboard/index_e.asp - -drgj ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 08:25:02 -0800 (PST) From: Vladyslav Strashko Subject: Re: Upon reading the Montague judgement ... Excellent point Rob Sciuk wrote: Dear Bruce & Donna (et.al.), A simplistic assessment at best, and a skillful judicial dance around the issues, but in spite of Justice Wright's gyrations there *IS* a fundamental rights question in the Canadian Firearms Act, and this is exemplified by the case of a lowly paedophile whose terms of release were appealed on the basis of being too restrictive ... In that case (Heywood vs Crown) the Supreme Court stated: "If the state, in pursuing a legitimate objective, uses means which are broader than necessary to accomplish that objective, the principles of fundamental justice will be violated because the individual's right will have been limited for no reason". On a simple examination, the entire Act speaks only to the law abiding, and limits and restricts only those person who obey the law, while remaining entirely silent upon criminal acts -- other than creating *NEW* criminal acts around the posession of certain "papers". Clearly this flies in the face of "fundamental justice", of which there appears to be a shortage in Canada just now. Bruce and Donna, my sincere hope is that you beat the criminal proceedings now confronting you, and while this initial judgement just screams out for an appeal, I realize how daunting the prospect must be, given what your family have suffered to date. Look for a donation forthwith. God bless. Sincerely, Rob Sciuk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 08:40:09 -0800 (PST) From: Vladyslav Strashko Subject: Re: Finland Defends Gun Laws Anti gun groups are weak there? Their laws already too restrictive... Dennis & Hazel Young wrote: Associated Press - November 9, 2007 Finland Defends Gun Laws By JARI TANNER HELSINKI, Finland (AP) - A teenage killer's deadly school rampage has put Finns on the defensive about their relationship to guns. With 1.6 million firearms in private hands, the Nordic nation is an anomaly in Europe, lagging behind only the U.S. and Yemen in civilian gun ownership, studies show. The government said Friday it would raise the minimum age for buying guns from 15 to 18, but insisted there was no need for sweeping changes to gun laws shaped by deep-rooted traditions of hunting in the sub-Arctic wilderness. "If you look at the rate of homicides with firearms (in Finland), the figure is very low," Interior Ministry spokesman Ilkka Salmi said. "People using guns are hunters. They live in rural areas. It's part of the life over there." According to a government study in 2002, 14 percent of homicides in Finland are gun-related. In the U.S., nearly 67 percent of murders reported to police in 2002 were committed with a firearm, according to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics. International gun control activists have urged the Finns to rethink their laws in the wake of Wednesday's tragedy. Finns are sensitive to their international image, and often complain their country is portrayed as a gloomy northern outpost of Europe, where long dark winters drive people to binge drinking, suicide or random outbursts of violence. Wednesday's bloodshed did little to help. Pekka-Eric Auvinen, described by police as a bullied 18-year-old outcast, opened fire at his high school in southern Finland. He killed six students, a school nurse and the principal before ending his own life with a gunshot to the head. "There are all kinds of people living in Finland, like everywhere else," said Tero Aaltonen, a customer in a Helsinki gun shop. "But I rather think it's the influence of the media and all the things people are exposed to that might make someone do a thing like that." Auvinen, who had no previous criminal record and belonged to a shooting club in central Helsinki, shot the victims with a .22-caliber pistol that he bought from a local gun store days before the attack. Police revealed Friday that Auvinen had settled for the pistol after being denied a license for a 9 mm semiautomatic handgun. "The application was rejected because a 9 mm gun is considered too powerful ... for target practice shooting," Detective Superintendent Tero Haapala told The Associated Press. "He was recommended to get a .22-caliber gun." After Wednesday's shooting drew international attention to Finland's gun culture, the Interior Ministry issued a statement saying firearm sales were "strictly controlled." Before granting a weapons permit, police "assess the applicant's suitability to posses a firearm, his or her way of life, behavior and possible mental health problems," the statement said. Applicants must prove also they have a legitimate need for a gun, such as hunting or target practice. Self-defense is not a valid reason. Following the school shooting, police found Internet postings by Auvinen that seemed to predict the massacre. Gun control activists said the shooting at the Jokela High School in Tuusula, some 30 miles north of Helsinki, proved the need for stricter gun laws in Finland. "Compared to other European countries, Finland has a serious gun problem," said Rebecca Peters, director of the London-based International Action Network on Small Arms. Finland has some 650,000 licensed gun owners, about 13 percent of the population of 5.2 million, many of them hunters, the Interior Ministry said. "Almost every Finnish family has a hunting gun at home," said William Wadstein, a gun shop owner in Helsinki. "We are used to seeing guns." He added that Finnish children are brought up knowing that guns are not toys: "Guns are very, very dangerous things. They are used for hunting, not murdering." Studies by the Geneva-based Small Arms Survey rank the country third in the world in civilian gun ownership. In Europe, only Switzerland comes close - and each member of Switzerland's militia army is allowed to keep his gun after completing military service. Efforts to tighten gun control started some years ago, led by left-wing and pacifist groups. But the anti-gun lobby in Finland is weak, and the country has been known to defend its traditions of widespread gun ownership in the European Union. Finland had previously insisted on keeping an age limit of 15 years for gun purchases in discussions with other EU nations about common rules on firearms. But a government committee proposed changing the law Friday to prohibit minors from buying guns, although they would still be allowed to use them under parental supervision, the Interior Ministry said. "It's obvious that this kind of tragic incident has probably sped up the decision," Salmi said. He noted, however, that the change could not have prevented Wednesday's massacre: Auvinen was 18. Associated Press writers Tomislav Skaro in Helsinki, Karl Ritter in Stockholm, Sweden, and Bradley Klapper in Geneva contributed to this report. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V10 #895 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:d.jordan@sasktel.net List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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