Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, March 16 2008 Volume 11 : Number 280 In this issue: "BRITAIN: Gun injuries soar as police 'experts' blast themselves-" gun safety? Re: mj Re: Tracing 'time to crime' guns Re: gun safety? POPERTY_RIGHTS_DEBATES_IN_PARLIAMENT_1983-2005 RE: Cdn-Firearms Digest V11 #279; Why not deport them? It's the gun . . isn't it? Fw:"BRITAIN: Gun injuries soar- police'experts' blast themselves" Re-Gangsters' delight New revolver fires shotgun shells,Colt slugs Thanks, and a couple of comments ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 10:19:59 -0600 From: Dennis & Hazel Young Subject: "BRITAIN: Gun injuries soar as police 'experts' blast themselves-" Subject: "BRITAIN: Gun injuries soar as police 'experts' blast themselves and colleagues by mistake" DAILY MAIL Gun injuries soar as police 'experts' blast themselves and colleagues by mistake By MARTIN SMITH - Last updated at 00:13am on 16th March 2008 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=535071&in_page_id=1770 Soaring: Gun injuries have gone up after police officers have shot themselves - and colleagues - by mistake (file image) The number of armed police officers accidentally shooting themselves - and other colleagues - has soared in the past five years. Now, nearly half of all injuries caused by police shootings are the result of officers blasting themselves or a colleague, often during bungled training and demonstrations. Since 2003, there have been seven incidents in which armed police injured themselves or a fellow officer due to the careless handling of a gun, compared to just four in the previous 12 years. The disturbing statistics call into question the competence and training of the 6,700 officers authorised to carry firearms in the 43 police forces in England and Wales. Recent incidents include a diplomatic protection officer shooting himself in the leg, and a sharpshooter who blew the top off his thumb. The details are revealed under the Freedom of Information Act. But while injuries to firearms officers have increased, there has been no corresponding rise in incidents in which the members of the public are shot. Figures obtained from 29 forces reveal that from January 2003 to September 2007 there were 21 members of the public killed or injured in operational incidents - while a further seven police and staff were wounded in shooting accidents, a quarter of the total. But from January 2006 to September 13, 2007, when five members of the public were shot dead and two injured by armed police, five officers or police staff also suffered bullet wounds. The forces where staff have suffered accidental injuries since 2003 are the Metropolitan Police, where there were four incidents, and one each in Sussex, Thames Valley and West Mercia. Before an accidental injury in November 2003, the last accidental wounding of a colleague by a police marksman was in 1997. Gill Marshall-Andrews, chair of the Gun Control Network, said: "The lesson is that people get injured when there are guns around - even when the gun user is as highly trained and specialist as a police firearms officer." Officers authorised to carry firearms must complete a two-week training course that includes the use of the standard police-issue Glock 17 self-loading pistol, basic firearms tactics and target identification. But most of the time is spent on the ranges learning shooting skills and weapon handling. The number of occasions in which firearms are deployed by police has increased dramatically - in 2002, guns were authorised on 13,991 operations, but last year that figure rose to 18,053. How officers have been wounded Recent accidents involving police firearms include: . A civilian control room operator was shot in the abdomen during a firearms awareness course in Kidlington, Oxfordshire, last year. A Thames Valley Police firearms officer had been showing staff his Glock pistol, unaware it was loaded. . A Sussex police officer accidentally shot a 48-year-old PC in the body at the range at Gatwick police station in August 2007. Body armour saved him from serious injury. . A trainee firearms officer shot a Met instructor in the thigh as he was setting up a target in a mock-up of a night-time alley in 2003. . A diplomatic protection officer in Central London shot himself in the leg getting into a car in September 2007. . A firearms officer from West Mercia Police shot himself in the leg and foot in January 2006 after his gun became caught in his clothing. . An airport security officer from the Met shot the top of his thumb off when he put it in front of his MP5 sub-machine gun during training in 2005. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:20:57 -0700 From: Len Miller Subject: gun safety? Cc: Stock day , Harper Minister , Grant palmer Gun safety or gun politics? Mr. Bassetti IS a collector. He is a senior. The local department knew he had guns for 45 years . . NONE of of HIS guns . . were 'on the street' Handguns have been registered since 1934 . . Now Bassetti can join Bob and Bonnie Dagenais in dialling 911 for help when home invaded . . Every burglar in Sudbury now knows he's disarmed . . Nice going . . guys . . Gun control is a cruel, expensive hoax . . Len ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 10:57:46 -0600 From: Bill Farion Subject: Re: mj Hi, And how did they come up with this value??? Or is it another exageration! > The scourge of gun violence plaguing Toronto streets is being fuelled by a > cross-border guns for marijuana trade, law enforcement officials tell the > Sunday Sun. A $2,000 half-kilo of Canadian marijuana trafficked into the > U.S. jumps in value to around $4,000, double that if it's sold in southern > states. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 11:39:36 -0500 From: 10x <10x@telus.net> Subject: Re: Tracing 'time to crime' guns This is an example of a back door antigun article. The blame is placed on the guns, not the "Toronto street thugs" who use them to commit crimes. Focusing on the gun(s) takes the attention off the miscreants who are engaging in what appears to be criminal careers. Put the criminals in Jail and there will be no problem with illegal guns. Or demand for smuggled guns. BTW: If so many guns are being smuggled into Canada where are all of the violent crimes committed with these smuggled guns being reported? At 09:51 AM 3/16/2008 -0500, you wrote: > >Tracing 'time to crime' guns >Weapon bought in the United States used in Ontario crime just two days later >By DON PEAT > >> http://www.torontosun.com/News/Canada/2008/03/16/5019391-sun.html > >American handguns are ending up in the hands of Toronto street thugs >within days of being purchased legally in the U.S. > >Just this week, Toronto Police seized four guns in two separate >incidents including a fully-loaded .45-calibre handgun with its serial >number scratched off. Police believe that gun was likely smuggled across >the border. > >It's a familiar story repeated over and over as hundreds of handguns and >other firearms have been recovered in crimes and seizures in the past >few years. > >When a U.S. source gun turns up in an Ontario crime a Toronto-based >member of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms goes to work >trying to track down and break open the smuggling operation that got it >here. > >For the last two years, tracing that gun back across the border -- the >first piece of the trafficking puzzle -- has been the job of ATF Special >Agent Regina Lombardo. > >A typical gun smuggling ring starts in the U.S. with people legally >purchasing firearms from legal dealers. The original purchasers are >often called "straws" -- paid by the ring to buy the weapons because >they have clean records. > >"They usually give them 'X' amount of money to do that," Lombardo said. > >Employing 10 to 15 straws isn't unusual. > >Most of the time, the people at the top of the ring are prohibited from >owning a gun. > >"The prohibited person is usually the one that's got the connections >here ... your 'dope for guns' exchange," Lombardo said. > >Once the guns are purchased they make their way north. > >Police have found guns hidden in cars, electronics, in body packs on >people and in transport trucks. > >Pays for fuel > >"Even for truckers, you buy one gun, you stick it in your truck and it >pays for your fuel," Lombardo said. > >The payoff for those who get the guns through is huge. "If you purchase >a weapon in the states for $200, $250, you could probably sell that >firearm here in Toronto, on the streets of Toronto, to gang members or >dopers, for about $2,000," Lombardo said. > >Bullets cost $10 a piece. > >"You buy a Glock in the states for $600 and sell it here for $3,000," >she said. > >Most of the guns are in exchange for drugs, police intelligence >suggests. "Your hydroponic here exchanged for the guns," Lombardo said. >"That's what we've been seeing for the past few years." > >Working closely with Ontario's Provincial Weapons Enforcement Unit, >Lombardo teams up with ATF field offices to trace back a gun's purchase >point and interview the seller. > >When they find the bigger smuggling operations, Lombardo helps police >co-ordinate their plans on both sides of the border to carry out a raid >that shuts off both ends of the pipeline. > >"Once we identify where some of these guns are coming from, my job is to >follow up," Lombardo said. > >A key factor that sets off police alarm bells is the "time-to-crime" of >a seized gun -- how long it took for a gun to go from a legal purchase >in the U.S. to a crime in Ontario. > >Some guns take years and some take days. > >A short time-to-crime time is the tell-tale sign that Lombardo may be >looking at a gun involved in a much larger gun trafficking ring. > >In Project Rebel agents found a gun with a two-day time to crime. > >That multi-jurisdictional bust last year resulted in 10 arrests in >Canada and two alleged masterminds busted in Miami. > >"It all stems from the trace of a firearm," Lombardo said. > >John Thompson, president of the Mackenzie Institute, a security-themed >think tank, said there will never be a total end to the illegal gun >trade but police are on the right track co-operating to shut it down. > >The American pipeline of guns into Canada is being closed off as U.S. >law enforcement cracks down on gun dealers, Thompson said. > >Selling guns out of the trunk of a car is a thing of the past in the >U.S., Thompson said. > >The U.S. has made tremendous headway cracking down on dealers that >operate without records or on the edge of the law. > >"That's choking off the supply," Thompson said. > >"American criminals have been having some of the same problems Canadian do. > >"In some American jurisdictions you're getting a 300% markup between the >legal price of a gun and a gun on the street." > >'Gun renting' > >The Canadian trend of "renting a gun" to commit a crime is also turning >up in the U.S., he said. > >As the U.S. supply slows, other illegal gun supply sources are opening. > >"An increasing number of small arms come from Latin America, Eastern >Europe or China," Thompson said. > >"If you've got narcotics coming in from other parts of the world it's no >great problem to put a few guns in the pipeline either." > >Political pledges to ban all handguns in Canada isn't the answer, >Thompson said. > >"The idea you can have a gun free society is ludicrous," he said. > >"It's just not going to happen. We don't have a gun problem, we have a >gang problem," he said. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 11:42:19 -0500 From: 10x <10x@telus.net> Subject: Re: gun safety? At 09:20 AM 3/16/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >Cc: Stock day , Harper Minister , > Grant palmer > >Gun safety or gun politics? > >Mr. Bassetti IS a collector. >He is a senior. >The local department knew he had guns for 45 years . . >NONE of of HIS guns . . were 'on the street' >Handguns have been registered since 1934 . . >Now Bassetti can join Bob and Bonnie Dagenais >in dialling 911 for help when home invaded . . >Every burglar in Sudbury now knows he's disarmed . . >Nice going . . guys . . >Gun control is a cruel, expensive hoax . . > >Len They probably figured this one out by checking the gun registry. I am curious as to the cause of the "search" and what charges will ever be filed. Or if, like the Marstar raid, there will ever be a conviction. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 11:52:21 -0600 From: Dennis & Hazel Young Subject: POPERTY_RIGHTS_DEBATES_IN_PARLIAMENT_1983-2005 PROPERTY RIGHTS DEBATES IN PARLIAMENT, 1983-2005 http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/2007_new/162.htm April 10, 2006 - BILL C-223: BREITKREUZ'S BILL TO STRENGTHEN PROPERTY RIGHTS http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?pub=bill&doc=C-223&parl=39&ses=1&language=E SEPTEMBER 30, 1996 - STEPHEN HARPER ON PROPERTY RIGHTS http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/2007_new/167.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 15:42:47 -0400 From: "Jules Sobrian" Subject: RE: Cdn-Firearms Digest V11 #279; Why not deport them? If anybody watched the news last week they would realize that under present conditions, deportation does not remove criminals permanently from Canada. There was one man who had been deported 20 times and made his way back, and another, eight. Without some form of permanent identification device implanted in these deportees, which can be detected by customs and immigration on their return to Canada, deportation just doesn't work. If this infringes on the criminals' rights and freedoms, then that means the Charter is there to provide Canadian victims for foreign criminals. After Plan B we should do something about the Charter. Jules ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 13:25:29 -0700 From: Len Miller Subject: It's the gun . . isn't it? Cc: Mark Bonokoski , Mike Ackermann , Kim Bolan Gun safety or gun politics? Mr. Bassetti IS a collector. He is a senior. The local department knew he had guns for 45 years . . NONE of of HIS guns . . were 'on the street' Now Bassetti can join Bob and Bonnie Dagenais in dialling 911 for help when home invaded . . Now every burglar in Sudbury knows he's disarmed . . Nice going . . guys . . Gun control is a cruel, expensive hoax . . however, we don't expect you to know that . . your job is to keep the peace . . . I don't expect Mr. Bassetti is feeling very peaceful . . Len - ------------- THE SUDBURY STAR Reported the seizure of guns from a 71 year old collector. Eerily sounding like the Saanich PD descent on a farmer who collected WW11 rifles, following a report of 'shots fired' ( actually it was a propane crop cannon, booming at the time ) but, they took all his guns anyhow . . . So, it's not the really the DANGER the law-abider represents, is it ? From Vancouver where we haven't stopped our 'rich cultural diversity' from killing each other, in turf wars, over drug trafficking . . for twenty five years . . ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:38:00 -0400 From: "mred" Subject: Fw:"BRITAIN: Gun injuries soar- police'experts' blast themselves" Sounds to me theyre all candidates for the Darwin awards. ed/on - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" To: "Firearms Digest (E-mail)" Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 12:19 PM Subject: "BRITAIN: Gun injuries soar as police 'experts' blast themselves-" > Subject: "BRITAIN: Gun injuries soar as police 'experts' blast themselves > and colleagues by mistake" > > DAILY MAIL > > Gun injuries soar as police 'experts' blast themselves and colleagues by > mistake > By MARTIN SMITH - Last updated at 00:13am on 16th March 2008 > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=535071&in_page_id=1770 > > Soaring: Gun injuries have gone up after police officers have shot > themselves - and colleagues - by mistake (file image) > The number of armed police officers accidentally shooting themselves - and > other colleagues - has soared in the past five years. > > Now, nearly half of all injuries caused by police shootings are the result > of officers blasting themselves or a colleague, often during bungled > training and demonstrations. > > Since 2003, there have been seven incidents in which armed police injured > themselves or a fellow officer due to the careless handling of a gun, > compared to just four in the previous 12 years. > > The disturbing statistics call into question the competence and training > of > the 6,700 officers authorised to carry firearms in the 43 police forces in > England and Wales. > > Recent incidents include a diplomatic protection officer shooting himself > in > the leg, and a sharpshooter who blew the top off his thumb. The details > are > revealed under the Freedom of Information Act. > > But while injuries to firearms officers have increased, there has been no > corresponding rise in incidents in which the members of the public are > shot. > > Figures obtained from 29 forces reveal that from January 2003 to September > 2007 there were 21 members of the public killed or injured in operational > incidents - while a further seven police and staff were wounded in > shooting > accidents, a quarter of the total. > > But from January 2006 to September 13, 2007, when five members of the > public > were shot dead and two injured by armed police, five officers or police > staff also suffered bullet wounds. > > The forces where staff have suffered accidental injuries since 2003 are > the > Metropolitan Police, where there were four incidents, and one each in > Sussex, Thames Valley and West Mercia. > > Before an accidental injury in November 2003, the last accidental wounding > of a colleague by a police marksman was in 1997. > > Gill Marshall-Andrews, chair of the Gun Control Network, said: "The lesson > is that people get injured when there are guns around - even when the gun > user is as highly trained and specialist as a police firearms officer." > > Officers authorised to carry firearms must complete a two-week training > course that includes the use of the standard police-issue Glock 17 > self-loading pistol, basic firearms tactics and target identification. > > But most of the time is spent on the ranges learning shooting skills and > weapon handling. > > The number of occasions in which firearms are deployed by police has > increased dramatically - in 2002, guns were authorised on 13,991 > operations, > but last year that figure rose to 18,053. > > How officers have been wounded > > Recent accidents involving police firearms include: > > . A civilian control room operator was shot in the abdomen during a > firearms > awareness course in Kidlington, Oxfordshire, last year. A Thames Valley > Police firearms officer had been showing staff his Glock pistol, unaware > it > was loaded. > > . A Sussex police officer accidentally shot a 48-year-old PC in the body > at > the range at Gatwick police station in August 2007. Body armour saved him > from serious injury. > > . A trainee firearms officer shot a Met instructor in the thigh as he was > setting up a target in a mock-up of a night-time alley in 2003. > > . A diplomatic protection officer in Central London shot himself in the > leg > getting into a car in September 2007. > > . A firearms officer from West Mercia Police shot himself in the leg and > foot in January 2006 after his gun became caught in his clothing. > > . An airport security officer from the Met shot the top of his thumb off > when he put it in front of his MP5 sub-machine gun during training in > 2005. > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 15:36:14 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re-Gangsters' delight New revolver fires shotgun shells,Colt slugs Quotes from the Toronto Sun: >John Thomson, president of Mackenzie Institute, a Toronto-based >security think-thank, said the weapon is the new "prestige gun" that every >Toronto thug wants to carry on the streets." >And given the love of many punks for the biggest, baddest and potentially >deadliest handguns for show and for use, the shiny new multi-shot cannon >poses a special threat. >Revolvers haven't been the gun of choice for drug dealers and gangs in the >past, they said. _Canadian police weren't keen on drawing attention to the >weapon._ The gun and gang task force said they have seen videos for the gun >online but haven't seen one on the streets of Toronto." Every 'grill wearin' backwards hat, baggy pants, hip hoppin doorknob, is gonna want one of these.. Why? Perhaps because the Toronto Sun ran what amounts to a HUGE front page advertisement and photo of it, loudly proclaiming it to be '_the_' gun... Who's says newspaper advertising isn't effective.. Even to the majority of illiterates among them who previously had never even heard of this firearm, a picture is still worth a thousand words. Might even sell a few papers.. And thats the important thing here isn't it? Bill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 21:39:27 -0300 From: "M.J. Ackermann, MD" Subject: Thanks, and a couple of comments To: mackenzieinstitute@bellnet.ca Re: http://www.torontosun.com/News/Canada/2008/03/16/5019391-sun.html To: John Thompson, President, Mackenzie Institute Dear Sir, In the referenced article I read > As the U.S. supply slows, other illegal gun supply sources are opening. > > "An increasing number of small arms come from Latin America, Eastern > Europe or China," Thompson said. > > "If you've got narcotics coming in from other parts of the world it's no > great problem to put a few guns in the pipeline either." > > Political pledges to ban all handguns in Canada isn't the answer, > Thompson said. > > "The idea you can have a gun free society is ludicrous," he said. > > "It's just not going to happen. We don't have a gun problem, we have a > gang problem," he said. > I would like to thank you for stating openly and bringing to the public's and politicians' attention what we lawful firearms owners have been saying for many years now. Triggers don't pull fingers, and the finger that is in jail cannot pull a trigger. Wasting huge resources registering inanimate objects and making their lawful owners jump through endless hoops while our catch-and-release crime industry of a justice system keeps putting violent offenders back out on the street does nothing to curb gang violence. Imbuing firearms with talisman-like powers of destruction may sell well to the urban left, but it is entirely counterproductive in the fight against violent crime. I would suggest that as the pipeline for smuggled guns is cut off, there will be a concerted effort on the part of organized crime to infiltrate the offices that handle the gun registry data for the purposes of targeting gun owners for professional break-ins. This is just one more reason why registries of lawful gun owners and their firearms are a danger greater than the gun owners themselves. We already know who the criminals are. The identify themselves to us repeatedly through their antisocial actions. We should be registering and controlling them, not the lawful citizen who is unlikely to ever harm a soul in his/her life. Tracking 170,000 bad guys is a lot easier both financially and politically, than tracking 2 - 5 million lawful citizens who happen to own firearms. Of course the root cause of all this violence is the "War on Drugs". Note I do not say drugs themselves are the cause. It is their illegal status that causes the prices to soar and drives the lucrative illegal trade. Consider this: When was the last time competing liquor outlets engaged in violent turf wars? Back in Al Capone's day, when alcohol was illegal. Ending Prohibition ended the bootleggers' violence. We should learn from history rather than repeat its mistakes. Thanks again for your comments as quoted in this article and thank you for your attention. - -- M.J. Ackermann, MD (Mike) Rural Family Physician, Sherbrooke, NS Box 13, 120 Cameron Rd. Sherbrooke, NS Canada B0J 3C0 902-522-2172 mikeack@ns.sympatico.ca "Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst". ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V11 #280 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:d.jordan@sasktel.net List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca FAQ list: http://www.magma.ca/~asd/cfd-faq1.html and http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://teapot.usask.ca/pub/cdn-firearms/ CFDigest Archives: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/ or put the next command in an e-mail message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca get cdn-firearms-digest v04.n192 end (192 is the digest issue number and 04 is the volume) To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next five lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-alert unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".) 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