Cdn-Firearms Digest Friday, May 30 2008 Volume 11 : Number 490 In this issue: Letter to Toronto Star (just sent) ... Time to show up en-masse ... Re: More dung on the CFO Toronto Sun letter sent earlier today Re: CFO inspections of seniors halted Re: TO gun ban More dung on the CFO Re: Miller's 'City State' FW: Ban on Handguns "Toronto Star: Rifle club members express anger at being targeted" Table scraps no less Re: Botleggers today, president tomorrow Re: Hand gun ban Larry Dumond, RIP ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 11:16:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Rob Sciuk Subject: Letter to Toronto Star (just sent) ... Guns aren't welcome in Toronto ... (fwd) Dear Sir/Madame, Letter writer and Councillor Adam Vaughn decries the opinion of those who do not live in Toronto, and in particular those who happen to be US residents, but he, like the Mayor is dead wrong in the approach, or lack thereof to violent crime. The problem is clearly black on black youth violence, but none on Council, and specifically the Mayor himself cannot seem to admit this truth. The words simply will not leave his lips, and he therefore cannot respond in any meaningful way. In finding a strawman replacement, albeit an entirely innocent one, they have a politically correct means of seeming to take "action" where none is warranted, and taking no action where it is so desperately needed. I predict that the violence will continue unabated, but we'll teach those damn target shooters a lesson they won't soon forget, how dare they proclaim their innocence?! Sincerely, Robert S. Sciuk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 13:12:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Rob Sciuk Subject: Time to show up en-masse ... cc. Larry Whitmore cc. Canadian Firearms Digest > Miller and Premier Dalton McGuinty have both been invited to attend the > June 2 session at Scarborough Civic Centre. Tony, Can the CSSA arrange to get ALL local clubs to send a delegate or 50 to attend the meeting at Scarborough civc centre -- this is bound to have a good turnout vis a vis the press ... and if we can show up complete with picket signs we can embarrass the shit head, and McGuinty at the same time. I know that the timing is short notice (to say the least), but hey, it is worth doing ... OH, and have all protestors pack a lunch so that they won't have to buy a damn thing in Toronto ... Rob. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 16:23:36 -0400 From: "mred" Subject: Re: More dung on the CFO - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Jasper" To: "Canadian Firearms Digest" Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 3:24 PM Subject: More dung on the CFO >I had reprinted from OOD: > > > > Firearms inspections halted; Seniors found to be 100% in compliance > > > Late last year, the Chief Firearms Office (C.F.O.) of Ontario > > > announced a pilot project that involving the inspection of 48 owners > > > of firearms over the age of 75, in possession of ten or more > > > firearms, one of which was prohibited or restricted.............. > > EDIT > > Ed Commented: > >> The CFo is a Lieberal flunky. >> ed/on > > I sympathize with the 'thought' and well-intentioned 'shot' but, , , the > CFO was very much an Iron Mike right wing PC stooge back before and > after Ch 39 became law. These folk definitely have disassociative > personality reaction. And they're allowed access to lethal weapons? > Ok I stand corrected but wasn't it "Iron " Mike who said he wouldn't enforce C-68 and then about face did? ed/on ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 12:52:07 +1200 From: "Walter Martindale" Subject: Toronto Sun letter sent earlier today Editor, One of your letters recently has called people who shoot for hunting or competition purposes "Neanderthal". I resent this, personally, but suggest that your correspondent (Toronto based, I presume) visit the target range at which Avianna Chao trains to learn just how horrible target shooters are. After all, they make holes in paper! They measure these holes and count scores! Shock! Horror! I have met Ms. Chao at previous national pistol championships held in Edmonton. I have competed against and been beaten by Ms. Chao, as well. To my memory she is pleasant, eloquent, intelligent, and a highly competitive elite athlete. I wish Ms. Chao all the best in her competitions in Beijing this August, and hope that shortsighted politicians grow up. Realistic wish in the former, unrealistic dream in the latter. Best regards, ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 23:07:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: CFO inspections of seniors halted - --- Lee Jasper wrote: > Here's the entire item from the Angler and Hunter > Hotline in Ontario out > of Door's; June 2008; p. 34. Thanks again for this. Just a quick question - are you an OFAH member? If so, do they have digital versions of OOD online for subscribers? And if so, can you get a copy of this article for me? Yours in LIBERTY! Bruce "It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself." - From The Declaration of Arbroath, 1320. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 10:11:39 -0400 From: "Hugh Jenkins" Subject: Re: TO gun ban We should be sending volumes of letters to every business in Toronto we can think of and apprize them of the unintended financial consequences of their mayor's actions against the RFC. Money talks BS walks, eh? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Mills" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 11:38 PM Subject: TO gun ban > We should also be sending volumes of letters to the TO > newspapers. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:24:33 -0400 From: Lee Jasper Subject: More dung on the CFO I had reprinted from OOD: > > Firearms inspections halted; Seniors found to be 100% in compliance > > Late last year, the Chief Firearms Office (C.F.O.) of Ontario > > announced a pilot project that involving the inspection of 48 owners > > of firearms over the age of 75, in possession of ten or more > > firearms, one of which was prohibited or restricted.............. > EDIT Ed Commented: > The CFo is a Lieberal flunky. > ed/on I sympathize with the 'thought' and well-intentioned 'shot' but, , , the CFO was very much an Iron Mike right wing PC stooge back before and after Ch 39 became law. These folk definitely have disassociative personality reaction. And they're allowed access to lethal weapons? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 11:37:50 -0600 From: Med Crotteau Subject: Re: Miller's 'City State' We all have our views, and the RFC in BC, where you are from, seems impotent! No outcry from the BC Wildlife Fed, and the Richmond Gun Club, learned how to fill out their Gov't. Papers "CORRECTLY," back in 1998! Yes, I heard the past President say those words. Of course the RFOC BC is silent! I'm not welcome at the RFOC BC meetings or tables! And I did challenge Tony, in his BC Wildlife Fed Office, and he even refused one of my Bumper Decals, when i offered him one. Yes, i had a witness! Then again, a way back in Canadian History, they hanged Riel. And as is the Lieberal way, he's been exonerated, in just the last few Years. "We need a Leader," and yet the Canadian way prevails. None are able, or willing, it seems. Not me, as I'm not Educated in School, and I don't have the Charisma. I wish that I did. There is some slight hope, that Boycotting TO, might have some impact. At least we can Hope! INCREASE CRIME VOTE LIEBERAL MED - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Birch" To: Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 9:17 AM Subject: Miller's 'City State' > The organizations that purport to represent the interests of the RFC are > looking rather impotent in the light of Miller's threatened actions to > shut down ranges. > > SNIP: > Barring a discreditation, he appears to have carte blanche in pursuing > his > goal of allowing only criminals to discharge firearms in Toronto, on city > streets. > > Boycotting Trawna as a strategy? It is to laugh .... westerners have been > boycotting the place for decades; quelle difference? > SNIP: > > TB ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 21:36:51 -0300 From: jim hill Subject: FW: Ban on Handguns My e-mail to David Miller today regarding his misguided intention to ban hand guns and close ranges. As this is in plain text any hyperlinks will have to be copied and pasted to your browser Jim Hill Fletchers Lake, NS Jim Hill - -----Original Message----- From: jim hill [mailto:jjhill@eastlink.ca] Sent: May 29, 2008 5:24 PM To: 'mayor_miller@toronto.ca' Subject: Ban on Handguns Mayor David Miller, Please note this link which contains notable (quotes) made by you, the majority of which are totally untrue, regarding handguns. http://www.torontothebad.com/selected_quotes_from__toronto_ma.htm I am not going to waste my time pointing out the lies in each of your outrageous statements as I know it would be a waste of time. Truth, you have shown in your statements, is not something you are familiar or comfortable with. You are completely uninterested in the fact that the majority of Legitimate handgun owners as well as owners of other firearms use these items for punching holes in pieces of paper or breaking clay pigeons at a range. I, as a retired policeman, during my 26 years in the Police Force, did in fact attend a number of shootings, I have even been shot at. Despite this I will state that the number of shooting incidents of any kind pale dramatically when compared to the number of motor vehicle related deaths. Further, The comparison I make refers to all gun related incidents (even those where no one was injured or no firearm was discharged) to deaths in motor vehicles. You will note I did not use the word accident when talking about Motor vehicle related deaths for such a thing does not exist. As with firearms it takes a person to cause the death of another whether it is with a firearm or a motor vehicle. In the latter it is the conscious decision to speed or break some existing law under the Motor Vehicle Act or Criminal Code to become involved in an incident that results in death or injury. Using cell phones, Blackberries, drinking coffee, eating breakfast, applying makeup and even reading books or newspapers take your attention while it should be on the road. All of these things I have personally seen in your city while passing through on the 401 Highway. Despite this I have yet to see you or any other politician, for that matter stand up and state that Motor vehicles will not be allowed in your cities. You feel that people might perceive you to be a raving lunatic! Given the Brown haze which continues to hang over Toronto, it is also seen that you choose to ignore the people who suffer from severe breathing problems who die every year in your city and therefore condone the killing of a person through noxious fumes as being more acceptable than drug related gang killings in your city. Your logic that the gun controls the person would have to, as stated above would naturally have to include the ,The "car made me do it" argument when it comes to motor vehicle related deaths. This would fit nicely with your refusal to accept the fact that inanimate objects do not control people, it is the other way around. This, however would remove the Responsible Firearms Community as your scapegoat and you might actually have to face the very real issues of gang/drug related violence. Also, given the number of people who die every year in this country as a result of contracting an infection in a hospital or other health care facilities, I would have no doubt in believing that these deaths outnumber the ones by shooting in your city. The one challenge you, and every person like you, who have an innate fear of, has always been a very simple one. You and others who constantly climb aboard the bodies of the dead to push your agenda are terrified of it. Simply put a loaded firearm on the table of an empty room equipped with video surveillance and record the number of deaths caused by that firearm over a set period. You are constantly stating that firearms cause death and I would like to see some scientific evidence that supports this. It would be interesting to say the least to see a firearm leave the table of its own accord then leave the room to shoot someone. I will not hold my breath waiting for you to do this. This brings me to the second part of the challenge, have every vehicle parked within one block of City Hall equipped with a hose attached to the exhaust pipe and have all those hoses run into the council chamber when you and all the city councillors are meeting. Start all the vehicles and let them run for an entire council session or two hours , whichever comes first. Here I would suggest you hold your breath but doubt you can accomplish it for two hours! At the end of the two hour session retrieve the videotape that has been recording the loaded handgun on the table and compare the death rates by handgun to the ones in the council chamber. Not willing to do this? I did not think so! Therefore you do not believe, contrary to your statements, that handguns kill people and will have to face the fact that people kill people. Some just use different weapons. Your drug dealers and gang members use "ILLEGAL GUNS". Hospital staff kill more by failing to wash their hands and the City of Toronto cares not one whit about the fact, on the days they can see the sun it is because your noxious haze has moved eastward with the breeze, and en-route it continues to affect people, even causing deaths and breathing difficulties to people in other communities. Further, it has been decimating Salmon and trout in our rivers and streams for years in the form of acid rain. Good luck with your test I will await the outcome. Before I forget You might want to peruse this site which is now being widely spread on the internet to persons around the world but in particular to Americans who might be considering Toronto as a place to visit. Given that the number of Americans coming to Canada has been steadily declining mostly because their extended years of enjoyment of Canada's 50 cent dollar are over but also the high cost of gasoline in Canada vs. the USA is outrageous. Their reading of this site may convince them to give Toronto a pass. http://www.torontothebad.com/ You may also be interested in this CTV news item using Stats Can numbers that run contrary to your mantra that guns are roaming the streets looking for people to kill, the gun related death rate has in fact been declining and recent changes to the gun laws and the addition of a two billion dollar registry cannot be credited for any of it given that it has been sliding down for 23 years and this was written in June 2005, therefore it has been declining since 1980. http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1119965250902_5/?hub= You will note in this article that is contrary to your information on what you refer to as a fact sheet on handguns. The second entry referring to suicides is refuted by the CTV article which quotes Stats Canada that suicide by firearm has been dropping but suicide by suffocation/hanging actually increased. Now Toronto can call for a ban on rope and plastic bags etc. Jim Hill (RCMP ret.) Fletchers Lake NS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, May 28, 2008 10:58 am From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 2" Subject: "Toronto Star: Rifle club members express anger at being targeted" Subject: "Toronto Star: Rifle club members express anger at being targeted by mayor" PUBLICATION: The Toronto Star DATE: 2008.05.28 EDITION: Met SECTION: News PAGE: A01 ILLUSTRATION: Steve Russell toronto Star Coach Patrick Haynes, of the Canadian National Recreation Association Handgun Club, is concerned over a proposal to close gun ranges in Toronto. ; BYLINE: Jim Byers SOURCE: Toronto Star WORD COUNT: 548 - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'We're not doing a Rambo here'; Rifle club members express anger at being targeted by mayor as part of campaign to stop gun violence - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- In one part of the Don Montgomery Community Recreation Centre, a group of men and women are engaged in an innocent game of volleyball. In another, fresh-faced children are taking a cartooning class. And, in the basement, a couple of dozen members of another club are doing what they love to do on a Tuesday night - firing guns. Charlie Gulston, an 81-year-old who took up the sport in 1962 and reckons he's won 300 awards, is lying on his stomach and peering at a distant series of bull's-eye targets through the sights of his air rifle. On the back of his red and white jacket the words "Proud to be Canadian" are stitched in large letters. There are 150 members of the Scarborough Rifle Club, give or take. There are grandmothers and grandfathers, teenagers and even a 24-year-old woman, Sandy Chan, who alternates her weeknights between target shooting, ballroom and swing dancing, and horseback riding lessons. To a man, and a woman, they're amazed - and more than a little bit angry - that politicians are looking to ban clubs from city property as part of a campaign to stop gun violence. "I shouldn't say it," said Florence Morris, a shooting enthusiast who has brought her two grandsons and their bags of shooting medals to practise on this night, "but I think the mayor doesn't have the balls" to tackle the real issues. Morris called the idea of banning the discharge of all firearms except those of public officials such as police "absolutely ridiculous." "He (Mayor David Miller) is not going after the cause of the problem," she told the Star. "We're not the problem. Our guns are all locked up. They have trigger guards and they're in locked containers." Steve Spinney, the firearms safety officer for the club, said members are only allowed to fire 22-calibre rifles that shoot "regular" bullets one at a time, as well as air rifles and air pistols that shoot small silver pellets. There are strict regulations, and the club is inspected. "It takes 10 or 15 seconds to reload one of these," he said, showing a rifle to a reporter. "You don't go bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And we fire at a target; usually 20 shots in 30 minutes. "We're not doing a Rambo here," he said. Spinney shows off another gun, this one an Anschutz 8002 air rifle. It's a heavy affair with a gleaming wooden stock and shoots small pellets. "Who takes something like this into a store" to hurt someone, he asks. Spinney said members of the club have to pass government tests and have to take a separate exam the club administers. In some 40 years of operation, he said the only accident he can recall at the club is when a box fell off a shelf and chipped someone's tooth. The club's setup looks pretty much like any sports organization. There's a bulletin board with club news in one corner and a large collection of trophies on the wall. There's also a poster with the words "Target Shooting is a Lifetime Sport." Spinney said if the club were to go out of business, he and other long-time shooters would find other places to practise their sport. But the casual members likely would have to give up their weekly nights at the range, not to mention the annual "Christmas Fun" shooting tournament and the annual fundraisers for the Canadian Cancer Society. Chan said it would be a shame to lose the club. "I had never used a gun before I joined last September," she said. "I really enjoy it. It's very relaxing." Fifteen-year-old Jordan Akow, one of Morris's grandsons, said he likes the mental discipline it takes to shoot well. "I think it helps me study for school," he said. Spinney said members like to compete in a sport that demands extreme discipline and hand-eye co-ordination. So why are politicians after them? "I don't know," he said. "Maybe we're easy to find. We're in the phone book. We're visible. But don't go after us; go after the people who bring handguns into Canada." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 15:14:16 -0400 From: Lee Jasper Subject: Table scraps no less From a previous discussion: >> Al said: >>> > >>> >> I prefer to die standing up. If you stand up you just might live, by >>> >> laying down you have already accepted death. I had added: >> > Totally laudable. >> > >> > But the 'Cons' and other Parties have done their head count, Al, and >> > have a good handle how few AOBs remain. They'll let us join the Club but >> > they'll be damned if they'll let us run the show. >> > >> > What choice do we have but to hang in there and try our darnedest to >> > nickel and dime them. Al's pithy response was: > I have already given the choice and it is one I have already made. It was > included in my original post. None of the above. I am not interested in > table scraps. Right on. But you gotta consider how the Halls of Power operate. I mean look at how the whole Nation was nickel and dimed and fed table scraps when Bernier was promoted from Industry to Foreign Affairs. It's like a grand chess match with these hollow folk, a nickel here, a dime there, a scrap here and a hand out over there. We just have to try harder to see the silver lining in a darkened sky. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 07:54:34 -0400 From: "mred" Subject: Re: Botleggers today, president tomorrow - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Sobrian" To: "CFD" Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:02 PM Subject: Botleggers today, president tomorrow > Brian Mulroney gave Bronfman the OK to move his billions from Canada to > either Bermuda or the Bahamas while he was Prime Minister, without paying > a > departure tax. So much for golf buddies. They played golf together every > Saturday apparently. > > Jules >Thanks for reminding me about the Bronfman tax deal , I remember now that >there was a big kerfuffle in parliament and then it was swept under the rug >BUT they apparently changed the law so that the little guy couldn't do the >same thing ~! Money talks bull**it walks. ed/on ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 17:39:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: Hand gun ban - --- Joe Gingrich wrote: > I think the firearms community must use their > strongest arguments. > > The firearms community must lay claim to the highest > of the moral high > ground, which is available for them to use. > > Yours in Tyranny, > Joe Gingrich > White Fox This of course being that gun ownership is an inherent, inalianable, and universal human right. Anything less than this position leaves this right of our on the bargaining table, which only weakens our arguments. Yours in LIBERTY! Bruce "It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself." - From The Declaration of Arbroath, 1320. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 16:06:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Rob Sciuk Subject: Larry Dumond, RIP ... Cc: all_ipsc@piggy.controlq.com Dear Digest, I am extremely sad to learn of the untimely passing of Mr. Larry Dumond on Tuesday, May 27th, 2008. Only 47 years of age, Larry was a very dear friend to our sport, and to many within the fraternity. Larry was an active member of the Burlington Rifle and Revolver Club, and competed frequently in a number of disciplines throughout Canada and the US. I've been on the range with Larry many times over the years, and his presence has always been as welcome as it was helpful. IPSC, IDPA, shotgun, rifle or just plinking, Larry enjoyed each discipine as much as the next, and brought with him a quiet and dry sense of humour which seemed to define him. We have lost a stalwart, and he leaves a void which will not be easily filled. He will be missed. God's speed, Larry! Sadly, Rob Sciuk ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V11 #490 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:drg.jordan@sasktel.net List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)