Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, September 18 2008 Volume 12 : Number 185 In this issue: Letter to Globe and Mail (just sent) Map(s) of the Week: Gun ownership, week 1 - Toronto Star Re: McGuinty renews call for handgun ban - Toronto Star Toronto Sun: Miller renews call for handgun ban Gun club hosts shoot - Campbellton Tribune (NB) Re: Victim among arrests made in Toronto school shooting-NP Clarity and Suggestions Man beaten in carjacking - Toronto Star Re: Guns and Screws [US] ATF lost 76 weapons in last 5 years - Toronto Star Mayhem grips Toronto streets - Toronto Sun Re: Hardly Comprehending Liberals don't need a majority Re: Hardly Comprehending Toronto Sun: Premier wants handgun ban ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:04:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Rob Sciuk Subject: Letter to Globe and Mail (just sent) Taking back the schools (fwd) The Globe lauds the placement of armed police in the guidance office of urban schools as a good step, but why in this, the latest of many generations has this band-aid non-solution become necessary? Is it because our youth value the trappings of a gangster lifestyle and the *insta-bling* that it generates more that the productive future that a good education will provide? Is it the fact that the Youth Criminal Justice Act absolves even the worst miscreants of the responsibility for their actions, no matter how heinous, and regards them as victims of "society"? Is it that the welfare state subsidizes and thereby promotes and encourages multi-generational single parent families who are taught that the entitlements provided by the state are "free", and yours for the asking without benefit of sweat or merit? Politicians looking to deflect blame from their own policies and the cascading effects of unintended consequences which have brought us to this point have inexplicably chosen the target shooters as boogey-man. Just as with recovering substance abusers, the first step is to admit that there is a problem, and until our leaders can make this admission, then we will be busy banning guns and taking other non-steps while yet another generation spins closer to the drain into which we have cast them. Sincerely, Robert S. Sciuk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:11:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Map(s) of the Week: Gun ownership, week 1 - Toronto Star http://thestar.blogs.com/maps/2008/09/maps-of-the-w-1.html Map(s) of the Week: Gun ownership, week 1 Photo: http://multimedia.thestar.com/images/14/e5/e1e6794f4a21b4ed75bb91d7cdcd.jpeg Map: http://www3.thestar.com/static/googlemaps/starmaps.html?xml=080919_gunowners.xml This week's map is the first installment in a two-week series on gun ownership in the GTA. It shows firearm licence holders as a percentage of the complete population (all ages) by postal area. Next week, we will compare the 2008 data in this map with equivalent data from 2004 to see where in the GTA gun ownership is rising and falling. As well, we will map hunting permit data to look how the relationship between hunting and gun ownership changes between neighbourhoods. In the 905, gun ownership is highest in Woodbridge, the rural area north of Pickering, Newmarket, and Oshawa. Gun ownership rates are generally lower in the 416 area code. Lawrence Park (M4N) leads the city, followed by the area near the former Downsview military base (M3K), the southeastern corner of Etobicoke (M8W) and the Royal York Rd./Bloor St. W. area of Etobicoke (M8X). Information was obtained under the federal Access to Information Act from the Canadian Firearms Centre. For some low-population FSAs with fewer than 40 licence holders, the RCMP censored out the number. For the 166 FSAs, we have partial data for seven, no data for six, and complete data for the remainder. The total of licences in each case come from adding together the two types of firearms licences: possession and acquisition licence holders registered after 1991 and holders of the grandfathered possession-only licences obtained before then. Click on the image to see the map. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:48:41 -0400 From: "mred" Subject: Re: McGuinty renews call for handgun ban - Toronto Star To: "DAVID SWEET" , "STEPHEN HARPER" , "STOCKWELL DAY" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Mills" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 6:42 PM Subject: McGuinty renews call for handgun ban - Toronto Star > http://www.thestar.com/FederalElection/article/500982 > > McGuinty renews call for handgun ban > > Sep 17, 2008 04:17 PM > Comments on this story (37) > Tamara King > THE CANADIAN PRESS > Somebody should tell McGuinty, Miller, Martin , et al that handguns are already banned in Canada. (Except of course to politicians and famous people)oh, and of course criminals . Miller appears to be brain dead ,which was suspected from the get go, of his "ban the handguns" diatribe, but every time he opens his mouth he confirms the suspicions. E.Machel Ancaster,ONT., ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:36:16 -0600 From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: Toronto Sun: Miller renews call for handgun ban The Toronto Sun - 2008.09.17 PAGE: 5 BY ANTONELLA ARTUSO AND BRYN WEESE, SUN MEDIA Miller renews call for handgun ban Candidates in federal election urged to take 'real action' http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2008/09/17/6789121-sun.html A shooting outside a Scarborough school yesterday should turn the attention of federal politicians on the campaign trail toward a ban on handguns, Toronto's mayor said. Calling the shooting at Bendale Business and Technical Institute "unacceptable," Mayor David Miller said the city, police and school board were not to blame. "Why should Torontonians, children in this case, be faced with the kind of threats they're seeing when the federal government could take real action?" Miller asked. "That's why we're calling for a national handgun ban. It's about preventing crime by getting the guns out of the hands of the thugs who use them. "Paul Martin and the Liberal party stood up in the last election and said it's time to end the ownership of handguns in this country. They were right. I hope the other leaders have as much courage. "Both as mayor and a parent, I know that our schools in Toronto are a place of safety. "It is absolutely unacceptable that our schools and the neighbourhoods around the schools can be a place (where) our students are threatened." The shooting occurred outside the school, suggesting the problem is a broad social one, provincial Education Minister Kathleen Wynne said at Queen's Park. "There are no simple answers to these issues," Wynne said. "This is a very unusual type of incident. Having said that, having one child, one student shot is too many." Conservative Leader John Tory said whatever's being done about youth violence, it's clearly not enough. People of all political stripes need to work together on solutions that address the crime and its underlying causes, Tory said. "It's a tragedy. It's the ultimate tragedy for a city like ours that prides itself on being a civilized, safe place," he said. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:52:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Gun club hosts shoot - Campbellton Tribune (NB) http://tribunenb.canadaeast.com/sportsleisure/article/417060 Gun club hosts shoot Published Wednesday September 17th, 2008 Image & Caption http://tribunenb.canadaeast.com/gallery/417060,184567 More than 70 competitors took part in the second annual provincial gun shoot at the Restigouche Gun Club in Balmoral last weekend. - -Myriam Lavallee/ La Voix du Restigouche Balmoral - Last weekend. for the second year in a row, the Restigouche Gun Club in Balmoral hosted a provincial shoot. More than 70 participants from across the province, as well as eastern Canada and the Maritimes, assembled for the two days of excitement Sept. 6 and 7. There were different categories in which shooters took part which tested their speed and accuracy. In the men's Open Division, James Storey of Fredericton took first, followed by Dean Peter and Philippe Proulx. In Production, Jim Smith came away the winner with Cliff meek second and Maurice Hepworth third. Hugh Black won the Standard Revolver title followed by John Stamp and Jim McGee. In Overall Standard, Pascal Sicotte finished first, with George McKillop second and Serge Noel third. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:52:09 -0700 From: R. LaCasse Subject: Re: Victim among arrests made in Toronto school shooting-NP On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:28:01 -0600 (CST), you wrote: |>------------------------------ |> |>Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:18:02 -0700 (PDT) |>From: Bruce Mills |>Subject: Victim among arrests made in Toronto school shooting-National Post |> |>http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2008/09/16/boy-17-shot-inside-toronto-school.aspx |> - -----------Snipped |> |>And, later that evening, a young male was killed after being shot in the |>head near a north Toronto basketball court. |> |>He was pronounced dead at the scene, near the intersection of Jane Street |>and Finch Avenue. No arrests have been made in that slaying. The police seem to have a forethought knowledge of these shooting events, they have a lot of viable suspects, and they are keeping it a secret...to their profession... Do plumbers/electricians go around breaking things so their customers you can call them up to have it fixed the next day...of course planned sabotage.....It's the same with the police who have a suspicious forethought of who is going to do a shooting from their extensive study of gangs and inter relations with some of the members. |>The shootings have led Toronto Mayor David Miller and Ontario Premier |>Dalton McGuinty to renew a call to ban handguns. Are these guys for real, are they on a financial gun ban commission from the UN anti-gun lobbyists.... Nowhere did the police or politician save a life, and they want to ban even more protective devices, what are they, just a bit blood thirsty or something.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:42:51 -0700 From: "Jim Szpajcher" Subject: Clarity and Suggestions Bruce - You ask "Why not just answer the question?" I did answer the question. You asked if I was suggesting using a gun to rob someone. Since robbing someone with an unregistered firearm is clearly an illegal act, I cannot advocate such a course of action. Therefore, I stand by my comment that I'm not suggesting anything. That doesn't remove that particular course of action from someone's options. I don't endorse or criticize what someone else decides to do with their unregistered gun. We have enough of that in the current political climate. It occurs to me that I've not heard of anyone attempting to rob a bank or a convenience store with a can of beans, so that might be some confirmation to my summarized points. I'm can, however, say that there are two reasons to have an unregistered gun. You can read into that any number of meanings - but those would be your meanings. You might come up with a different list of reasons for having an unregistered gun. That would be up to you. Jim Szpajcher St. Paul, AB >> Bruce - >> >> I'm not suggesting anything. I wrote: >> >> ================= >> So, why would one bother to have an unregistered gun? >> >> Two reasons: >> >> 1. You never need a gun until you need a gun. And then you >> need one real >> bad. >> >> 2. You can't always get a gun with a can of beans. But >> you can always get a >> can of beans with a gun. >> ================= >> >> It seems pretty clear to me. > > Why not just answer the question? > > Yours in LIBERTY? > Bruce > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:39:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Man beaten in carjacking - Toronto Star http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/500700 Man beaten in carjacking Sep 17, 2008 10:50 AM Be the first to comment on this article... Bob Mitchell STAFF REPORTER Two men are being sought following a violent carjacking in Brampton last night. Peel police said a 25-year-old man was struck on the head and forced into his vehicle by two armed assailants at about 8:15 p.m. The victim was standing beside his car in the driveway of his residence near Williams Parkway and Hwy. 50 when he was struck from behind. He was then dragged into his vehicle, police said. The culprits sped away but the man jumped out of his car when they stopped for a red light at the intersection of Queen St. and the Gore Rd. He was then chased by the men on foot and was quickly caught and beaten, police said. The assailants left him when they realized passersby had seen them, and they fled in the stolen vehicle. Police are looking for two black males, aged 20 to 27. One man is described as 5-foot-8 to 5-foot-10 with a goatee, short hair and a skinny build. He wore black clothes and had a black handgun. The other man is about the same height but chubby. He also wore a black jacket. Police have yet to recover the stolen vehicle, a 1999 brown Chevrolet Venture. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:55:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Re: Guns and Screws - --- On Wed, 9/17/08, Jim Szpajcher wrote: > 2. You can't always get a gun with a can of beans. But > you can always get a > can of beans with a gun. I hope you're not suggesting using a gun to rob someone of their can of beans - that's every bit an infringement of someone's rights as is the Firearms Act... Yours in LIBERTY! Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:40:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: [US] ATF lost 76 weapons in last 5 years - Toronto Star http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/500689 ATF lost 76 weapons in last 5 years Two stolen guns found to have been used in crimes, report finds Sep 17, 2008 10:32 AM Be the first to comment on this article... LARA JAKES JORDAN Associated Press WASHINGTON- The ATF lost 76 weapons and hundreds of laptops over five years, the Justice Department reported Wednesday, blaming carelessness and sloppy record-keeping. Thirty-five of the missing handguns, rifles, Tasers and other weapons were stolen, as were 50 laptops, the internal audit found. Two of the stolen weapons were used in crimes. The audit by Justice Department Inspector General Glenn A. Fine found "inadequate" oversight of weapons and laptops resulted in "significant rates of losses" at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. "It is especially troubling that that ATF's rate of loss for weapons was nearly double that of the FBI and DEA, and that ATF did not even know whether most of its lost, stolen, or missing laptop computers contained sensitive or classified information," he added. In a Sept. 10 letter responding to the audit, ATF acting Director Michael J. Sullivan said his agency "agrees or partially agrees with most of the recommendations." "We are revising our procedures of reporting losses of weapons or laptops," Sullivan said. The audit looked at ATF's inventory of weapons, laptops, ammunition and explosives between Oct. 1, 2002 and Aug. 31, 2007. It found that ATF lost three times more weapons each month than it had in a similar 2002 audit by the Treasury Department, which used to oversee the agency. It also lost 50 times as many laptops as reported in the earlier audit. Of the 76 weapons, 35 were reported stolen, 19 lost and 12 missing from inventories, investigators found. Of the 418 missing laptops, 50 were stolen, 8 lost and 274 could not be found during inventory. Another 86 laptops were unaccounted for because ATF had either destroyed or lost documents showing where they were, the audit concluded. Two weapons reported stolen were used to commit crimes. In one instance, a gun was stolen from an ATF car parked outside the agent's home and later used to shoot through the window of another residence, the audit found. In the other, a stolen ATF gun was taken from a burglary suspect. Additionally, ATF employees did not report 13 of the 76 lost weapons, or 365 of the 418 missing laptops, to internal affairs as required. ATF officials also did not report much of the lost equipment to the Justice Department. Investigators could not conclude what was on 398 of 418 missing laptops – except that few were encrypted. That means any sensitive material on the laptops could have been exposed. Moreover, "we found that ATF did not regularly attempt to determine whether the lost, stolen or missing laptop computers contained sensitive or classified information," the audit said. But few - only 18 of 7,500 - ATF laptops were authorized to hold classified information. Compared to weapons loss rates for the FBI and Drug Enforcement Administration, the ATF misplaced almost twice as many guns. The audit found that the ATF lost .52 weapons per 1,000 employees, compared to .29 at the FBI and .28 at the DEA. Fine's investigators concluded there were proper controls and oversight of explosives in ATF's possession, and good security for ammunition. However, nine of 20 ATF field offices surveyed did not have proper accounting methods for ammunition. In a statement responding to the audit, ATF Assistant Director W. Larry Ford said the agency disciplined employees whose carelessness or improper handling of equipment resulted in losses. "ATF is committed to safeguarding its inventory of weapons and laptop computers in the interest of public safety," Ford said. ``ATF agrees that rigorous and thorough internal controls will enhance its ability to account for, and most importantly prevent, thefts and losses of weapons and laptop computers." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:04:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Mayhem grips Toronto streets - Toronto Sun http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2008/09/17/6790481-sun.html Mayhem grips Toronto streets 3 men dead, 1 injured in eruption of violence across GTA By SUN MEDIA Bloodshed swept across the GTA yesterday, leaving three young men dead and a fourth wounded. The mayhem began just before noon with the shooting of a 16-year-old boy outside Bendale Business and Technical Institute near Midland and Lawrence Aves. While Taimone Moore was being treated in hospital, police swept through the Scarborough neighbourhood in a hunt for his shooter. Meanwhile, the life was bleeding out of another young man on the other side of the GTA as gunfire broke out in a Malton neighbourhood for the second time in as many days. Emergency crews found a young man, identified by a family friend as Paramprit Dhinsa, 24, bleeding next to a car on Reindeer Dr., near Derry Rd. E. and Airport Rd., about 4 p.m. It was Peel's record-breaking 20th murder of the year. About an hour later and several kilometres east, a teen was gunned down on a North York basketball court -- Toronto's 50th homicide of the year. The victim, a boy believed to be about 16, was found between a row of townhouses on Jane St., north of Finch Ave. W. Two and a half hours later the city's 51st murder victim was stabbed in the chest outside a Scarborough apartment complex. He was later pronounced dead in hospital. Police searched the stabbing scene on Kennedy Rd., just south of Sheppard Ave. E., for the assailant. As of last night, no arrests had been made in any of the attacks. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:40:47 -0600 From: Edward Hudson Subject: Re: Hardly Comprehending On 2008 Sep 17, at 8:16 AM, 10x wrote: > > How many people does it really take to issue a firearms license? None. Having arms for our defense is our birthright. William Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England, (1765 - 1769): The fifth and last auxiliary right ... is that of having arms for their defense, ... of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression. ... security, of personal liberty, and of private property. So long as these remain inviolate, the subject is perfectly free; for every species of compulsive tyranny and oppression must act in opposition to one or other of these rights, having no other object upon which it can possibly be employed. To preserve these from violation, ... to vindicate these rights, when actually violated or attacked, the subjects of England are entitled ... to the right of having and using arms for self-preservation and defense. And all these rights and liberties it is our birthright to enjoy entire; ... . Sincerely, Eduardo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:25:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Douglas Bailey Subject: Liberals don't need a majority "Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 12:55:05 -0700 From: "Willy Floyd" Subject: Hard of Hearing or Hard of Comprehending I am amazed that there are still a few people (at least on this webpage) that do not yet understand the difference between desire and achievement. Right now, the Lieberals' Policy is to seize any gun they don't like. Until they get a majority in the House they just sit there wishful thinking. The Liberals don't need a majority to implement anti-gun legislation. They just need to form a government. The NDP, Greens and Bloc will support them and the CPC will not be able to do anything about it. The only hope for gun owners is the CPC.....plain and simple. They're the only friends we have. Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:16:41 -0500 From: 10x <10x@telus.net> Subject: Re: Hardly Comprehending At 11:35 PM 9/16/2008 -0600, you wrote: > > >Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:41:09 -0500 >From: 10x <10x@telus.net> >Subject: Re: Hard of Hearing or Hard of Comprehending > > >Remember Kim Campbell and her OIC that prohibited a list of Semi auto >sporting rifles? She was a Conservative being advised by Liberal Lackies >in the Public Service > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Don't blame the Con Campbell for stealing property and infringing upon our >historic right to armes for their defence, and self defense, protect the >Con, shift the blame to their advisors for they are "Liberal Lackies" or >whatever? > >Stock Day, plagiarized Alan Rock's C-68, but don't blame Day and his Con >buddies, blame the "Liberal Lackies" or the other civil servants who work >for them. Would you believe Day's dog wrote it? Shift the blame to those >who wrote the law and fooled poooooooor Stockwell into thinking Arbys, >agaaaaain. Remember, protect the Cons, always protect the Cons, no matter >what. The Cons are disarming Kanukistanis now, but that is fine and dandy >because it is the Cons that are performing the atrocities upon the firearms >community and no one else. That's ok, nicht wahr? Remember, when the Cons >get a majority they will stop being -----s and turn into freedom loving >souls and stop suppressing our liberties. Mr. Day;s dog didn't write C-24. It was written by the anti gun owner bureaucrats in the Department of Justice. The same folks who wrote C-68(1995) and have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. The fact that Mr. Day and the Conservatives were not smart enough to recognize the problems that the bill does not address and would accept it as a government bill makes me very uncomfortable. I strongly suspect the public servants in various government departments are going forward with a strong agenda that is contrary to the C.P.C. agenda no matter what the orders from the top are. That happens in a minority government with public servants and a media that are hostile to the governing party. Face it, the Canadian Firearms Centre is a very large organization with many government jobs. Changing the legislation would very likely eliminate many of those jobs. How many people does it really take to issue a firearms license? The current system includes the applicant, at least two references, the photographer to take the photo, the person who opens the application, the person who enters the application into the computer, an unknown number of people who do criminal record checks, at least two people to call the references on a new application, and an unknown number of people in the provincial C.F.O.s office to give it "provincial approval". And this is if all goes well. IF there is any question on the application, there are even more public servants involved. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:27:01 -0600 From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: Toronto Sun: Premier wants handgun ban The Toronto Sun - 2008.09.18 PAGE: 7 BY JONATHAN JENKINS, QUEEN'S PARK BUREAU Premier wants handgun ban 'I don't see a good reason why we can't': McGuinty http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2008/09/18/6798816-sun.html A handgun ban is something all of Canada should agree on, Premier Dalton McGuinty said yesterday after a teenager was shot while allegedly trying to rob students at Bendale Business and Technical School. "I don't see a good reason why we can't ban handguns in this country. I put that to all the federal leaders," McGuinty said. "I know this is somewhat controversial in some constituencies and in some parts of the country and I understand that," he said. "But there's one thing I think Canadians share as a whole -- we want to protect our kids. We want to make sure they can go to school and come home safely." It's hard to oppose a gun ban after meeting with some of the people affected by gun violence, McGuinty said. "When you're confronted in the face with the tragic consequences, that might act as a stronger impetus to address it," he said. "My advice to all party leaders is they should embrace this." LITTLE FED SUPPORT Unfortunately for the premier, though, the four federal party leaders tend to shrug off his advice, as they have with his "Fairness for Ontario" campaign. The closest to McGuinty's position have been NDP Leader Jack Layton, who suggests handguns be banned from cities, and the Greens under Elizabeth May, who say they would "phase out" handguns and automatic weapons. But Liberal Leader Stephane Dion has backed away from predecessor Paul Martin's commitment to ban handguns and instead has targeted assault weapons. The Tories under Stephen Harper say handguns are already tightly restricted in the country and an outright ban is unnecessary. Instead the Conservatives have pushed for tougher sentences for gun crime and have proposed a revamped Youth Criminal Justice Act. Ontario Attorney General Chris Bentley ripped the Tories' crime platform yesterday, saying the province is desperate for help from Ottawa in dealing with crime and is only getting empty talk. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V12 #185 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:drg.jordan@sasktel.net List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)