Cdn-Firearms Digest Tuesday, December 2 2008 Volume 12 : Number 718 In this issue: Nothing says democracy like 1,176 comments India has a long history of gun control St. Catharines Standard Poll Canadian Labour Congress supports the Coalition GG email address Fw: THE COALITION Re: Torstar Poll "Purse snatchers grab at baby" Michaelle Jean's Three Options National Post Column: Take my country ... please; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 15:20:15 -0500 From: "mred" Subject: Nothing says democracy like 1,176 comments http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/mingram?cid=al_gam_nletter_dtechal Nothing says democracy like 1,176 comments Mathew Ingram, 01/12/08 at 11:17 AM EST Update: The story continues to develop, but in the 24 hours following the announcement of the coalition, the Globe got more than 4,500 comments on stories related to that news -- and a total of more than 9,000 comments in all, or about twice as many as we get on an average day. Who said Canadians don't care about politics :-) Original post: To say that readers feel strongly about the idea of the Liberals and the New Democrats ousting the Conservatives and forming a coalition government would be the understatement of the year: the Globe story on that possibility, which was posted late Sunday night, had more than a thousand comments on it by Monday morning -- and at the most recent check had more than 1,176 comments (the story has now been closed to new comments with 1,273 in total). The followup story posted late this morning already has more than 600 comments. The odds that many people are going to read through all 1,176 comments seem pretty low (although it is interesting to note how many of the comments are detailed responses to posts made hours earlier), so I thought it might be worthwhile to excerpt some of them, to give the flavour of what our readers think about the situation. If you spot any candidates for highlighting that I might have missed, feel free to send them my way at mingram@globeandmail.com. One of the first comments that captured the spirit of the thread was from Derek Holtom of Swan River, who at 10:50 p.m. said simply: "I'm sick to my stomach." Just a few minutes later came a comment from the complete opposite point of view -- Lily Shang from Toronto said: "Woo hoo! I've been hoping for this since Harper took power. Someone calling themselves Great Southwest from Essex, Ontario (wouldn't it be great if everyone used their real names?) added a similar thought, saying: "The coalition government has my complete support. Thanks for putting this outrageously incompetent and power-mad Conservative government out of its misery." Not all of the criticisms of the Harper government came from Liberals or New Democrats: someone calling themselves Some Guy from Canada writes: "I am happy to hear about it. I am also looking forward to the removal of Stephen Harper so voting Conservative could be an option for me again." And after a number of commenters took issue with the idea of the coalition forming the government, Adrian Howell from Toronto wrote: "We live in a PARLIAMENTARY democracy. That means, that no matter unfair you may think it is, one has to have the most votes in...wait for it...PARLIAMENT to enact an agenda. The Conservatives, while having the largest single block of seats, don't have a majority of seats in Parliament. Thus, if the Opposition can combine, what they say goes. And apparently, what will be going is Stephen Harper from 24 Sussex Drive. Can the democratic system be better? Of course. But for now, this is the system we have, right or wrong." As disappointed as many commenters were, some found a silver lining: Jim Slim from Cowichan Valley writes: "Aside from the many bitter personal attacks and other non-intelligent ramblings from rednecks and xenophobes; this crisis has possible Canada altering implications on so many levels. Maybe it's time for the apathetic Canadian population to wake up to more awareness and involvement in the country's political process. If this is what it takes - so be it. It remains to be seen how this plays out but for once Canadian politics is interesting again!" Some other examples (I will be adding more to this................... NOTE: Go to the Link for the rest of the comments. There are far too many to post on the digest. AsstMod-RAM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:16:34 -0700 From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: India has a long history of gun control December 02, 2008 Gun Control in India By Larrey Anderson The world watched in horror as the terrorists prowled and murdered for hours through the streets of a major city in India. The mayhem went all but unabated. No one tried to stop them -- because no one could stop them. None of the citizens were armed. India has a long history of gun control. Under British occupation, the citizens of India had no rights to private gun ownership. Even Mahatma Gandhi protested the firearms prohibition: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/12/gun_control_in_india.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:29:10 -0700 From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: St. Catharines Standard Poll St. Catharines Standard Poll http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/ Should the opposition parties defeat Stephen Harper and form a coalition government? Yes - 6% 52 No - 94% 873 Don't know - 0% 3 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:51:31 -0700 From: "Dennis & Hazel Young" Subject: Canadian Labour Congress supports the Coalition http://canadianlabour.ca/en/coalition-government-en I support a Coalition Government Submitted by francesfc on Sun, 2008-11-30 20:08. Message to send: Canada is facing a global economic crisis. Canadians are worried about their jobs, their savings and their future. Right now, we need all of our political leaders to work together for the good of the economy and the country. But Stephen Harper wants to put politics first. He has started a political campaign to divide Canadians and attack political leaders rather than work together for the good of the country. He has lost the support he needs to remain Prime Minister and even cancelled votes in Parliament to avoid defeat. He wants Canadians to speak out. We agree This is no time for politics. We don't need an election right now. We need an alternative. We need our political leaders to work together and do whatever it takes to help us get through this economic crisis. I support a new coalition government that will provide economic leadership and hope. I want you to support it too. It's time to put our country first. Send this message to your Member of Parliament! First Name: * Enter your First Name Family Name: * Enter your Family Name City: City Province: Postal/Zip Code: * Enter Your Postal/Zip Code Your e-mail address: * Your personal message: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 15:04:05 -0500 From: "E. John Wilson" Subject: GG email address You can e/mail the Governor General at the following: *Contact Info for the Governor General:* Phone: 613-993-8200 Email: smcook@gg.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 15:06:24 -0500 From: "mred" Subject: Fw: THE COALITION - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 8:54 AM Subject: RE: THE COALITION On behalf of the Honourable James M. Flaherty, we acknowledge receipt of your electronic correspondence. Please be assured that Minister Flaherty appreciates receiving your views. Au nom de l'honorable James M. Flaherty, nous accusons réception de votre courrier électronique. Soyez assuré(e) que Monsieur Flaherty apprécie vos commentaires. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 09:06:54 -0800 From: Albert 4 Subject: Re: Torstar Poll Lee Jasper wrote: > Torstar Poll at 11:06 a.m. > >> http://www3.thestar.com/cgi-bin/pollnew.pl?poll=star081202am&answer=no > Hahahah.. Pretty tricky. By clicking on that link you automatically vote "No". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Maybe that's the author of this post's choice and instead of using his back-button to get back to the original front of the poll, he used the results URL instead. Try finding the poll on The Star's website, by not using this URL, but just; http://www.thestar.com/default The poll is about 1/2 way down on the left-hand side. And if you get a notice from TheStar telling you that you've already voted, then go in to where all of your cookies are stored and then go in and delete all of TheStar's cookies for today. Then you can vote AGAIN as you choose, as TheStar's webserver will have no previous record on just how you supposedly voted before. CFD Moderator-DRGJ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:16:07 -0600 From: Larry James Fillo Subject: "Purse snatchers grab at baby" http://www.thestarphoenix.com/purse+snatchers+grab+baby/1020326/ story.html A story whereby violent criminals are emboldened by their safety being guaranteed by public "servants" enforcing a "Right to be a Victim" policy, a policy endorsed by every political party in Parliament. Because of the rate of robberies and violent crime that happens at this mall, I nicknamed it "Mugger's Mall" years ago. Using a stolen vehicle to commit a crime is increasingly common. I'm ashamed to admit how dangerous my home province has become as a place to raise a family. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, December 2, 2008 12:06 pm From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 2" Subject: Michaelle Jean's Three Options - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca Michaelle Jean's Three Options http://www.calgaryherald.com/ Gov. Gen. Michaelle Jean, who is empowered with the final word on the political crisis on Parliament Hill, faces several options, depending on how the storm unfolds this week. Despite being on a European tour until Saturday, Jean's office says she is busy studying the scenarios. They include: 1. Prime Minister Stephen Harper could try to buy himself time by asking Jean to prorogue Parliament until late January, when the conservatives are slated to release their budget. Several constitutional experts agree Jean would be unlikely to refuse the request, since Parliament is constitutionally bound to sit only once a year. But they say the Prime Minister would appear to be bolting from a problem, and would pay a political price for shutting down in the midst of economic turmoil. 2. The government could face defeat Monday, when the opposition parties say they will join forces in a vote of non-confidence. The Prime Minister, who must then meet with the Governor General, could ask her to dissolve Parliament, permitting him to call another $300-million election, eight weeks after Canadians last cast ballots. 3. Instead of rubber-stamping an election, Jean could use her "reserve power" to offer the government to the opposition. The three parties have already signed a coalition agreement, and were putting the final touches Monday on a written pitch to Jean. If she agrees, it would be the first federal government to be thrown out of office in favour of an opposition coalition. dmartin@canwest.com - ------------------------------------------------------------- HELPFUL PHONE NUMBERS Governor General: (800) 465-6890 http://www.gg.ca/contactus/index_e.asp Dion: (613)996-5789 http://webinfo.parl.gc.ca/MEMBERSOFPARLIAMENT/ProfileMP.aspx?Key=128092& Language=E Layton: (613)995-7224 http://webinfo.parl.gc.ca/MEMBERSOFPARLIAMENT/ProfileMP.aspx?Key=128276& Language=E Duceppe: (613)992-6779 http://webinfo.parl.gc.ca/MEMBERSOFPARLIAMENT/ProfileMP.aspx?Key=128300& Language=E Ignatieff: (613)995-9364 http://webinfo.parl.gc.ca/MEMBERSOFPARLIAMENT/ProfileMP.aspx?Key=128315& Language=E Rae: (613)992-5234 http://webinfo.parl.gc.ca/MEMBERSOFPARLIAMENT/ProfileMP.aspx?Key=128246& Language=E Leblanc: (613)992-1020 http://webinfo.parl.gc.ca/MEMBERSOFPARLIAMENT/ProfileMP.aspx?Key=128175& Language=E Canadians For Democracy Petition http://canadians4democracy.ca/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PUBLICATION: National Post DATE: 2008.12.02 EDITION: All But Toronto/Final SECTION: News PAGE: A1 COLUMN: In Ottawa DATELINE: OTTAWA BYLINE: Don Martin SOURCE: National Post WORD COUNT: 697 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Led by a loser, bound by the Bloc; It's a personal putsch, not a rational rebellion - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The biggest Liberal loser in the party's electoral history, a self-admitted campaign failure who advocated carbon taxes as sound economy policy and lacks significant Western Canada representation, seems set to become prime minister next week. Forgive them. They know not what they've done. Giddy opposition party leaders have decreed nothing will stop them from toppling this government next Monday to create the first governing coalition in almost 100 years, a 30-month, three-headed, Liberal-led monster bonded to New Democrats and Quebec separatists by four pages of policy duct tape. The government's defeat can now only be avoided if Stephen Harper prematurely pulls the plug on the barely started session of Parliament this week. That seems a desperate and shameless tactic that would merely delay the inevitable until early next year and give the fledgling coalition time to solidify. This means an electorate that cast a third of its votes for the Conservatives will have their representation replaced by a hodge-podge of lowest-common-denominator policies produced almost overnight by parties leaning left and toward leaving. An election no longer seems to be an option. The coalition, despite lacking any modern precedent, has done an admirable job of building the case for securing the Governor-General's blessing to try to govern until June, 2011, subject to change without notice. That will put the keys to 24 Sussex Drive in the hands of Stephane Dion, an Official Opposition leader who has already announced his resignation and set May 2, 2009, as the date to crown his replacement. The three MPs bidding to replace him will be senior ministers in the new Cabinet. Michael Ignatieff, Bob Rae and Dominic LeBlanc will divide their time between governing a country at perilous risk from recession while campaigning hard to win the prime minister's job. This move is clearly payback for years of facing a Stephen Harper who lay awake at night scheming on ways to eliminate or embarrass the Liberal party without fearing his own vulnerable state as a minority government leader. That ensures there will be a fury in the land, particularly in the West and specifically in Alberta. Even if New Democrat rookie Linda Duncan of Edmonton becomes the province's token Cabinet minister, replacing the five Alberta Conservatives in power now, the frustration of seeing electorally legitimized power seized by Toronto-based Liberals partnered with separatist forces in Quebec will be revolt-worthy in the West. While the discipline of power may keep the coalition together, more or less flying in loose formation for perhaps a year or even longer, this is not a system of sustainable government as much as it is a power grab minus a compelling reason to exist. It circumvents the public's Oct. 14 election verdict for no good reason, given the government has capitulated on every grievance its opponents spotted in the fiscal update. This makes it a personal putsch, not a rational rebellion. It puts Canada on an uncertain track under leadership that will change again within months. In the meantime, Stephen Harper may well join Stephane Dion as a former prime minister, the price for boneheadedly browbeating his opponents in dangerous times. The deficit, already accepted as necessary to fight job losses and auto-sector failure, is bound to be larger than expected as the coalition unleashes hefty infrastructure relief, industrial bailouts and unspecified housing construction and retrofitting. No projected price tag was attached to the plan yesterday. Under coalition control, the government's size likely will bloat to deal with social issues, environmental policy will be hardened against the energy sector, the large number of Senate vacancies will be restacked with mostly Liberal partisans and Quebec appeasement moves will be even more rampant than currently exist. It must be acknowledged the coalition's organization is more advanced than anyone could have expected, given that the precipitating move, the botched fiscal update, was less than 100 hours old when the accord was signed yesterday afternoon. There comes a time where an aura descends on political leaders. Stephen Harper always projected confident, unflappable leadership. That changed yesterday when his sagging shoulders and lack-lustre performance gave him the look of a lost cause trying to come to mental grips with his six-week squandering of the largest minority mandate in Canadian history. It's still an awful hard squint to see Mr. Dion as a prime minister power-sharing with Jack Layton, but it seems likely to become a reality. Stephane Dion is about to get the ultimate do-over to answer this question:Who actually won the last election? - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- PUBLICATION: Calgary Herald DATE: 2008.12.02 EDITION: Final SECTION: The Editorial Page PAGE: A12 KEYWORDS: POLITICIANS; POLITICAL PARTIES; GOVERNMENT; CANADA SOURCE: Calgary Herald WORD COUNT: 515 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Monstrous result of an ill-conceived political coupling - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ In theory, and the charge of trying to steal the election notwithstanding, the opposition parties attempting to form a governing coalition are breaking no rules. If they pass a motion declaring the House of Commons has no confidence in the Conservative government, the Governor General does indeed have the power to call another election, or alternatively --as the opposition hopes and recommends--invite anybody who may command the support of the House to form a government. That's the Westminster system. Nevertheless, a government reliant upon the support of a party conceived for no other purpose than to facilitate Quebec's exit from Confederation has the legitimacy of a police force maintaining public order with the assistance of a biker gang under contract. For this reason alone, the Governor General should reject the coalition proposal. Those promoting the coalition, principally NDP Leader Jack Layton, would have us believe the Bloc Quebecois would not be a part of the coalition, and would have no seats in cabinet. Instead, it would pledge not to defeat the coalition for 18 months. This is semantics, however. Even if the Bloc were not an organic part of the coalition, the fact remains that the moment it withdrew its support, the coalition would fall. In this kind of deal, nobody does anything for nothing. The pressure would therefore be upon the coalition to yield to whatever demands Bloc Leader Gilles Duceppe cared to name. In the transcript of the NDP caucus conference call intercepted and released by a member of the Conservative party, Layton more or less admits as much: He enthuses that the goal was "an agreement on policy program for the coalition, that would have three-party agreement." Canadians would be very interested to know what Layton, and whoever emerges as king of the Liberal hill, would be prepared to pay. On the basis of past performance, one would expect Duceppe to demand a rich, custom-made economic stimulus package for Quebec, at the very least, and possibly some constitutional accommodation. If a watered-down Clarity Act is not part of the deal now contemplated, for instance, will it be the price of continued Bloc support in a year? Who knows? Saskatchewan MP Ralph Goodale, reported by our sister paper the Saskatoon StarPhoenix, says, "When it comes to issues of Canadian unity . . . there will be absolutely no compromise from the Liberal point of view." But Canadians should accept such assurances with skepticism. As Prime Minister Stephen Harper himself is now demonstrating, few promises or principles stand in the way of a government's attempt to retain power. Any government that plans to hold power at the pleasure of Quebec separatists is irredeemably compromised from the start. Heaven knows nobody wants another election, but given the options emerging from this mess, it is starting to look like the safest for the country, the least offensive to democratic principles and the course of action we would recommend to the Governor General, in the increasingly likely event that she finds herself obliged to adjudicate this complex dilemma. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, December 2, 2008 12:52 pm From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 2" Subject: National Post Column: Take my country ... please; - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca PUBLICATION: National Post DATE: 2008.12.02 EDITION: National SECTION: Issues & Ideas PAGE: A19 COLUMN: Jonathan Kay BYLINE: Jonathan Kay SOURCE: National Post WORD COUNT: 523 - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take my country ... please; The best Christmas gift the Conservatives could get is to lose - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Conservatives are scouring Parliamentary precedents, trying to figure out some way to keep their party in power. My suggestion? Put away the history books, stop issuing press releases, call off the hounds. If Stephane Dion really wants to be Prime Minister, let him. The best Christmas gift the Conservatives could get right now is to lose power. How does that make sense? Let us count the ways: (1) Having an unpopular dud like Stephane Dion as party leader hurt the Liberal brand. Having him as prime minister will kill it. There was a reason Canada decisively voted down this guy in the October election. Let them rediscover it. (2) The Liberals will heretofore be known as the party willing to jump in bed with separatists to get their grubby hands on power. Don't you think that will be an interesting talking point to bring into the next election? This will cement the Tories' status as the federalist alternative in Quebec, and the guardian of national integrity in the rest of the country. (3) Jack Layton is a smarter player, and a more charismatic politician, than Stephane Dion. His enhanced status (cabinet seats!) and rising stardom will cause further left-wing vote-splitting between Liberals and Dippers down the line. In a best-case scenario (from the Conservatives' point of view), the two statist parties will go neck and neck into the next election. (4) It's the recession, stupid. No governing party -- no matter how well it controls the attendant economic damage -- ever comes out of an epic economic downturn with solid voter approval. A Liberal-led coalition will be no different, no matter how many tax dollars it spends trying to make the recession go away. And here's the beauty part: The recession will probably last about 18 months, exactly the statistically expected tenure of a minority government. Which means Harper (or whoever takes his place) will be perfectly positioned to catch the recovery wave of late 2010. There's no telling how long he can keep surfing after that. It'll be Bill Clinton's (and Jean Chretien's) 1990s all over again. (5) What's the alternative for the Conservatives? Jettisoning policies and principles left and right in a pathetic, populist bid to appeal to the Canadian public. This makes Harper look weak and desperate. As the contrasting examples of Chretien and Paul Martin showed, strength sells in this country; weakness gets you booted out of office. (6) What is Harper giving up, really? A minority government is of little use in a country where the hot-button issues crying out for reform -- health, human-rights, the Senate, equalization, gun control, crime policy - -- all require a strong leader who can make decisions unencumbered by the needs imposed by minority governance. Harper knows this, which is why he made his fatal funding gambit in the first place. That gesture was deemed too aggressive by Canadians. My best guess is that he can accomplish his goal far better through passive aggression. If I were Stephen Harper, my words to Mr. Dion would be "Take my country ...please." jkay@nationalpost.com ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V12 #718 *********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's e-mail address: mailto:drg.jordan@sasktel.net List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)