Cdn-Firearms Digest Friday, February 13 2009 Volume 13 : Number 041 In this issue: Calgary Sun - The in-your-face lawlessness of some criminals Re: CUFOA pans Mr. Breitkreuz' private member Bill C-301 Re: CPIC ... Re: Me too Re: An alternative to the registry Moderator Dave Retiring Re: Me too US Airways Crash Caught on Video Flight 1549 [NFR] Re: Me too London Free Press - Column - Ban wrong target for councillor excerpt from the shooting wire London Free Press - Letters - Feb 13/09 Toronto Star - Handgun collector bemoans latest theft of legal ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 19:34:23 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Calgary Sun - The in-your-face lawlessness of some criminals http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Bell_Rick/2009/02/12/8360946-sun.php The in-your-face lawlessness of some criminals rubs the police chief the wrong way and he wants more power to troll out the troublemakers UPDATED: 2009-02-12 02:39:10 MST By RICK BELL Sadly, this is what we need in today's Pleasantville. Gangs and other assorted hoodlums are never far from the local headlines and cops justifiably want more authority to deal with them. Looks like they might be getting their wish. A change to provincial liquor laws allowing cops to go into bars and toss known gangsters is facing a final look-see. Another possible addition would also allow more sharing of information about the dirtbags between the police and the licensed establishments. Fred Lindsay, Alberta's top cop and a man decidedly unhappy with the spread of organized outlaws carrying their war onto our streets and into our watering holes, cannot comment until any legalities are signed off and introduced in this spring's legislature sitting. Rick Hanson, this city's hard-nosed police chief who has no illusions about the extent of in-your-face lawlessness, says giving police the power to heave-ho the criminal element is needed, especially since these individuals respect squat and care not a whit for who gets in their way. "You can't let these idiots make the rules and rule the roost. It's all about standing up to these people," he says, of gang members and their no-holds-barred intimidation tactics. "It sends a strong message to these gang members. They think they're the cock of the walk and they're not. These people are not afraid to use firearms, they're more than willing to intimidate. They love the status that comes from being feared. They love the notoriety." With the way it is now, who is going to want to bounce one of the gangsters and, in Hanson's words, "paint a red target on their back." "They're risking a severe beating in the darkness of a parking lot, or worse." "How do you protect patrons against those who could have knives or guns and are willing to use them and when it's over there are no witnesses and everybody runs for cover? We can take the appropriate action." The chief says even those who go nowhere near a nightclub should be concerned, because someone they know could be caught in the crossfire. Yes, it is time for the ostriches to get their heads out of the wrong end of their anatomy. "If you're 55 years old and you go home at the end of the day and flip on the TV and order in a pizza you have a pretty safe environment. But you may have kids or grandkids who go out and hang out with other young people." "Law-abiding people should be able to go to a bar and not have to worry about four of these clowns deciding that's their favourite table." The chief, who spoke last year to aldermen about the gangs and the "social disorder" in Calgary, grew up here, and it doesn't take long to realize he is really bothered about how these bottom-feeders have hurt this city. And it doesn't take much longer to figure out he has no desire to explain away what the lawbreakers are doing. "People are fed up. They're sick and tired of running scared from people with no fear of the law," says the police chief, mincing not a syllable. On sharing information, it will almost certainly lead to an increase in the use of Advil. That's just the way it is. Last year, after a complaint from a patron, the province's privacy poobah Frank Work ordered this city's Tantra nightclub to stop scanning driver's licences of its patrons and destroy all information collected. The bar said the scanning was put in for safety reasons and to discourage would-be violent characters from coming into the place. The privacy boss disagreed but the order is on hold as the matter is now before a judge. Hanson is not asked about this case before the courts but, on getting the lowdown on the lowlifes, he has an opinion. "We want to better support those who want to run legitimate businesses safely. It seems common sense if there's a known troublemaker in a bar why shouldn't that be common knowledge to other nightclubs?" Naturally, it won't take long before some say this law goes too far. Gangsters have rights and the police will abuse their authority and so on. These are pie-in-the-sky sorts this scribbler wouldn't want as backup. At the moment of truth, they would be in the can in the stall on the floor, curled up in the fetal position cradling their hug-a-thug criminology text and their fantasy of a world without evil. "It's not going too far. It's one small step in taking the streets back. It is not going to be used on a whim," replies Hanson. "Do we want a community that's safe for law-abiding people or do we want an environment where predators flourish and nobody can stand up to them?" Looking at the spineless courts and the apathy of those who've given up on any hope of change, you wonder. But, on a day like today, the good guys will take whatever help they can get. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:40:07 -0400 From: allistermuir@eastlink.ca Subject: Re: CUFOA pans Mr. Breitkreuz' private member Bill C-301 > Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:08:09 -0500 > From: Lee Jasper > Subject: Re: CUFOA pans Mr. Breitkreuz' private member Bill C-301 > > CUFOA posted: > >> CUFOA, an association of resisters to the 1995 C-68 "law," has >> consistently argued that only a return to the more effective and much >> less expensive Firearm Acquisition Certificate (FAC) created in 1967 >> would be acceptable. > > I know there's a whole explanation for the difference between a license > and a certificate . . . but it's lost on 99.9% of the public and 98.9% Then it should be easy to sell an FAC. > of the politicians. > > It's about a little biddy card that gun owners carry in their wallet and > a list of gun owners and their addresses that every gov't in Canada > insists it must have. As long as we need to have one or the other in > order to possess or acquire a firearm, the net effect appears to be the > same. > We have gone over this before Lee. You did not need to retain an FAC after you AQUIRED a firearm. Throw it away and you were not a criminal. Al ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:43:32 -0400 From: allistermuir@eastlink.ca Subject: Re: CPIC ... > Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:31:49 -0500 (EST) > From: Rob Sciuk > Subject: re: CPIC ... Canadians for the most part don't understand firearms laws, > are unaware of police procedures and resources, and "frankly my dear, > don't give a damn!". If this is the case Rob why would we be having conversations about what you and others claim we cannot sell to them? Al ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:51:10 -0400 From: allistermuir@eastlink.ca Subject: Re: Me too > Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:13:04 -0800 (PST) > From: Vladyslav Strashko > Subject: Re: Me too > > http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=3D3659410&Language=3De&Mode=3D1&File=3D24#1 > > (c) > in the case of a transfer to an individual, the transferor verifies the > validity of the transferee's Firearms Licence with the Canada Firearms > Centre, and obtains a reference number for the inquiry; Thank you for your response, it is refreshing to finally see an attempt to answer questions on this forum. Reference numbers are given to retain/verify the details. Please provide the information on what the details are. That is the actual question. Al ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:10:13 -0500 From: "Barry Glasgow" Subject: Re: An alternative to the registry >> "Barry Glasgow" wrote: >> >> To: all_papers >> Subject: Re: An alternative to the registry >> [snip] >> >>Purge the registry of all its useless data and convert it to a tool for >>tracking and monitoring gun-toting criminals. >10x <10x@telus.net> wrote: >Why not track ALL VIOLENT criminals? >Why the focus on gun criminals? >Have you fallen into the anti gun trap as well? I was speaking in the context of the gun registry and gun criminals in particular at that point but the implication in that first paragraph was ALL VIOLENT criminals. As a matter of fact, if you paid any attention to the very next paragraph before calling my understanding of anti-gun thinking into question, you would have seen the following; ".... known violent criminals must inform the registry of any changes to their status and must submit to periodic inspections. Failure to conform to any of these conditions would result in severe penalties." It doesn't get much clearer than that but when a Digest member feels the need to unfairly criticize another's valid suggestion against the gun registry, one has to wonder about his (or her) motives. Barry (using my real name) Glasgow Woodlawn, Ontario ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:07:51 -0700 From: "Roger" Subject: Moderator Dave Retiring I'm sorry to see Dave go too. I worked with Dave as Asst Mod for 8 months or so, and I'm also sorry I can no longer volunteer the required time any longer. Anyway, for anyone that was following, I spent December and January in Oshawa, Ontario, looking after my elderly mother. While I was there I had the pleasure of meeting Rob Sciuk, and went shooting my new handgun (Ruger Mark III, 4.5" fluted stainless steel barrel, with Crimson Trace Laser Sights) with him. Rob had arranged for me to shoot as a guest at the Marksman Club of Oshawa, so I could get some range time in during my 2 months absence from Edmonton. I am really happy with my new handgun. At this time, I would like to thank Rob and the Marksman Club of Oshawa for inviting me there as a guest, which allowed me to get an ATT to take my handgun to Oshawa during this trip. Without their help, the Alberta CFO had refused to issue me an ATT. With more thanks to Rob, my brother and niece were also invited down to the Marksman Club, both of them first time handgun shooters. Under Rob's supervision and instruction, my young niece was able to hit bull's-eyes after just one session. Her eyes and mind have been opened to the real culture of firearms, and she was thrilled. She didn't stop talking about her experience for days, and already wants to get her RPAL and handgun, which I have offered to buy for her if she follows through and gets her License. My niece is very articulate, and I know she will go on to tell all her friends the truth about firearms, that they are not only meant to kill, but handgun shooting is an exciting and safe sport. She already recognizes the lies that the anti's are spreading. My Brother was also impressed with his first time experience. I'm hoping he will follow through with his plans to get his RPAL and join a club. All in all, that was a very good trip. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 07:19:20 -0800 (PST) From: Vladyslav Strashko Subject: Re: Me too I didn't get the question. The way the law sets it, I'll call CFC and verify that your licence is OK. CFC will get me a reference number that I checked your PAL. I don't have to provide any info about the gun. - --- On Thu, 2/12/09, allistermuir@eastlink.ca wrote: From: allistermuir@eastlink.ca Subject: Re: Me too To: cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Date: Thursday, February 12, 2009, 10:51 PM > Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:13:04 -0800 (PST) > From: Vladyslav Strashko > Subject: Re: Me too > > http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=3D3659410&Language=3De&Mode=3D1&File=3D24#1 > > (c) > in the case of a transfer to an individual, the transferor verifies the > validity of the transferee's Firearms Licence with the Canada Firearms > Centre, and obtains a reference number for the inquiry; Thank you for your response, it is refreshing to finally see an attempt to answer questions on this forum. Reference numbers are given to retain/verify the details. Please provide the information on what the details are. That is the actual question. Al - --0-416099942-1234538360=:78500 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I didn't get the question. The way the law sets it, I'll call CFC and verify that your licence is OK. CFC will get me a reference number that I checked your PAL. I don't have to provide any info about the gun.

--- On Thu, 2/12/09, allistermuir@eastlink.ca <allistermuir@eastlink.ca> wrote:
From: allistermuir@eastlink.ca <allistermuir@eastlink.ca>
Subject: Re: Me too
To: cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca
Date: Thursday, February 12, 2009, 10:51 PM

> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:13:04 -0800
(PST)
> From: Vladyslav Strashko <vladstrashko@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Me too
>
>
http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=3D3659410&Language=3De&Mode=3D1&File=3D24#1
>
> (c)
> in the case of a transfer to an individual, the transferor verifies the
> validity of the transferee's Firearms Licence with the Canada Firearms
> Centre, and obtains a reference number for the inquiry;

Thank you for your response, it is refreshing to finally see an attempt to
answer questions on this forum.

Reference numbers are given to retain/verify the details. Please provide
the information on what the details are. That is the actual question.

Al

- --0-416099942-1234538360=:78500-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:34:52 -0500 From: Lee Jasper Subject: US Airways Crash Caught on Video Flight 1549 [NFR] Wot a Guy; C.B. "Sully" Sullenberger pilot of U.S. Air (and the rest of the 1549 crew). Video of US Airways descent into Hudson River released (plus rescue) > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mLKfRVU3qM Video of US Airways Plane [before] landing in Hudson River > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwrzUZ44MVo&feature=related Video of Plane Landing in the Hudson River, NY (multiple views) > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wszZtCpj2rQ&feature=related Video simulation of airplane crash-landing in Hudson River - CNN com > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmP4pmxOFv8&feature=related ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:04:16 -0600 From: 10x <10x@telus.net> Subject: Re: Me too Once again, The gun registry is a diversion The gun registry is not a threat to gun ownership. It is the fact that the criminal code was ammended by C-68(1995) to prohibit the possession of firearms. The Firearms Act (C-68(1995))enables folks who have firearms to not be charged under the criminal code by applying for a firearms owners license - a P.A.L. or P.O.L. Let that firearms license expire and you can be charged with a criminal code offence. Or be like Al and never get a license and Al can currently be charged with a criminal offence. ( The current amenesty does not seem to apply to Al) Remember as well that the Minister of Justice sets the rules and fees for YOU to get a firearms license and the Minister of Justice does not have to ask Parliaments permission to set these rules and fees, nor do these rules and fees get reviewed by parliament. Can you afford $5000.00 to renew your P.A.L. if the fee is set that high by the minister of Justice? Can you meet the standards to get a firearms licence as set by a Minister of Justice with the Mayor of Toronto's attitudes towards guns? Decriminalize possession of firearms in Canada and Al (and many, many more other Canadians who are sit silently in Al's boat) is no longer in contravention of the Criminal Code. Decriminalize the possession of firearms AND curb the powers of the Minister of Justice to change the rules and many of the potential dangers of the firearms act go away. At 07:19 AM 2/13/2009 -0800, you wrote: > > >I didn't get the question. The way the law sets it, I'll call CFC and >verify that your licence is OK. CFC will get me a reference number that I >checked your PAL. I don't have to provide any info about the gun. > >--- On Thu, 2/12/09, allistermuir@eastlink.ca >wrote: > >From: allistermuir@eastlink.ca >Subject: Re: Me too >To: cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca >Date: Thursday, February 12, 2009, 10:51 PM > >> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:13:04 -0800 (PST) >> From: Vladyslav Strashko >> Subject: Re: Me too >> >> >http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=3D3659410&L anguage=3De&Mode=3D1&File=3D24#1 >> >> (c) >> in the case of a transfer to an individual, the transferor verifies the >> validity of the transferee's Firearms Licence with the Canada Firearms >> Centre, and obtains a reference number for the inquiry; > >Thank you for your response, it is refreshing to finally see an attempt to >answer questions on this forum. > >Reference numbers are given to retain/verify the details. Please provide >the information on what the details are. That is the actual question. > >Al ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:26:51 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: London Free Press - Column - Ban wrong target for councillor http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Columnists/Gillespie_Ian/2009/02/13/8377671-sun.html Ban wrong target for councillor By IAN GILLESPIE Instead of devoting time and energy to fixable problems (Can you say "potholes?"), some of our misguided municipal politicians are once again trying to save the world. This time, Controller Gina Barber wants to reduce suicides, accidental deaths and crimes of passion by banning handguns. It won't work. First of all, the people who routinely wreak havoc with unlicensed handguns tend to be criminals who don't pay a whole lot of attention to laws and licences. "Having an outright handgun ban will not prevent criminals from possessing them," says London Police Chief Murray Faulkner. "It's already illegal for them anyway." Barber may believe many criminals steal their handguns from the homes of licensed, registered owners. Faulkner says that isn't so. "There are very, very few handguns stolen as a result of break and enters," he says. "Very few (handguns) are actually stolen from legitimate handgun owners." Faulkner says many of the illegal handguns that fall into the hands of Canadian crooks and drug dealers are completely off the radar. "We do traces on handguns that we seize," he says. "And most of them come back not registered, or there's no serial numbers to begin with, which indicates to us they're stolen right from the (firearms) factory, bit by bit, before the serial numbers get stamped on." Maybe banning guns would eliminate crimes committed by licensed handgun owners? "I have yet to see a gun club member involved in a robbery," Faulkner says. Perhaps banning handguns would save the lives of those who use one to commit suicide? "Very few people kill themselves with handguns," Faulkner says. "It's all high-powered rifles or shotguns." And according to gun club advocate John Evers, studies in Australia and Britain indicate that while banning handguns results in fewer suicides by handgun, the overall suicide rates remain much the same. And while Barber's proposed ban may be largely symbolic, it will have nasty real-world consequences for the East Elgin Sportsmen's Association in Aylmer, where Evers is public relations director. The Aylmer gun club has about 500 members. But more than half of them belong because it's the only place they can legally load and discharge their handguns, Evers says. A handgun ban, Evers says, would cripple his club and "take away half our reason for being." No one is denying handguns -- in the wrong hands -- pose problems. But both Faulkner and Evers insist the best way to solve that problem is by targeting the bad guys -- and not the responsible, law-abiding recreational shooters. For Faulkner, that means mandatory minimum sentences for gun crimes. "Left-wing people say mandatory minimums don't work. I say they do, because as long they're incarcerated, they're not shooting people." Makes sense to me. Now maybe Barber can set her sights on something practical -- like those potholes. Email: igillespie@lfpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:28:28 -0500 From: TONY KATZ Subject: excerpt from the shooting wire Oh what a "friend" we have in Obama and his cohorts! its going to be a long 4 years. wouldnt this be another free trade violation? No Valentine Coming From the North ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:33:26 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: London Free Press - Letters - Feb 13/09 http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/Opinion/Letters/ Gun ownership ban futile When are people going to get that bans against gun ownership do nothing to stop criminals who already use them illegally? In the U.K., which banned the legal ownership of handguns, gun crime soared over 40 per cent higher in the first two years. Such a ban is nothing but a "feel good" measure that only serves to punish an identifiable minority of law-abiding target shooters and collectors for political gain. Mike Kovacs London Let's cull board of control If this city needs to save money and cut spending and is not afraid to call for a cull, board of control should be next. Why has this issue not been settled? Stop dragging your feet and do it now. William Sorton London ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:45:09 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Toronto Star - Handgun collector bemoans latest theft of legal weapons To: cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <43630.91273.qm@web56903.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/586921 Handgun collector bemoans latest theft of legal weapons Ownership debate renewed as police release footage of suspect in Scarborough robbery Feb 13, 2009 04:30 AM Comments on this story (15) Robyn Doolittle Staff Reporter Gary Gordaneer collected guns most of his life - but no more. He was given his first, a .22 repeating rifle, as an 11-year-old boy. By 62, Gordaneer had accumulated as many as 80 weapons, which he estimates were worth about $500,000. "Now, they're all gone," says Gordaneer, 65. Three years ago, thieves broke into Gordaneer's Mississauga apartment. They busted through the front door and jimmied open three of the four large metal storage lockers. The suspects made off with 42 handguns. The heist, one of a string of thefts targeting gun collections, is believed to be the largest cache of weapons stolen from an Ontario gun collector. It is an ongoing problem with no end in sight. Just this past weekend, 12 legally registered firearms, including 10 handguns, were stolen from a Scarborough apartment building in the Neilson Rd. and Crow Trail area. The weapons, which belonged to a gun club member, were stored in a locked cabinet. Yesterday, police released surveillance footage of a stocky man believed to be in his early- to mid-20s, wearing a white hoodie and dark pants, entering the building through the front entrance, then exiting through the back door carrying large black boxes in each hand. To view footage of the suspect involved in Saturday's heist go to YouTube, http://tinyurl.com/boblqn. "All the work that my people are doing, getting guns off the streets, it's not insignificant that 10 more handguns are out there ... potentially making their way into the hands of criminals," said Toronto police Chief Bill Blair. The bottom line, he continued, is that, legal or not, those who store handguns in their home are potentially putting the public at risk. "These guns that are legally and properly registered - they can end up in the hands of criminals," said Blair. "And every one of these guns is a potential tragedy." Mayor David Miller said Saturday's theft is yet another example of why the country needs to ban the private ownership of handguns. "There are guns stolen all the time in Toronto that are used in crimes. About a third of the shootings that occur in this city are guns from Canadian sources," he said. "You can never completely outfox criminals who, once they find out about guns, are going to steal them." Speaking from his home yesterday, Gordaneer defended gun collectors. "They've got to have them locked up. But as long as they've got them locked up, it's not a collector's fault if someone breaks into their home and steals (their property)," he said, adding that his views don't change the fact he is "very concerned" his collection has likely ended up in the hands of criminals. Gordaneer was eventually charged with unauthorized possession of a prohibitive device, unauthorized possession of a firearm and unauthorized possession of a firearm knowing it to be unauthorized, after it was revealed a portion of the weapons were not registered. He was given one year's probation. A few months later he moved into a nursing home where guns were not allowed. As of last year, Gordaneer had sold off the remainder of his collection. Last year, 40 firearms were reported stolen to Toronto police. Of those, five were handguns. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V13 #41 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's email: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)