Cdn-Firearms Digest Sunday, March 1 2009 Volume 13 : Number 091 In this issue: Washington Post Editorial: Domestic violence suspects ... Re: Canadian Bill of Rights Re: CanWest Re: Prove it There was . . a time . . Re: Drop the political pacifier Fw: Tillsonburg guns vs cars Re: Different Strokes NP _ Letter - Bans don't work Vancouver Sun - Two men in custody after B.C. shooting Kelowna Capital-News - Firearms stolen in Kelowna [none] It's working! Letter: Firearms Act tracks only those who are not criminals Column: Ban on blades has been dismal failure in Great Britain ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, February 28, 2009 12:27 pm From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 2" Subject: Washington Post Editorial: Domestic violence suspects ... ...should be forced to relinquish their weapons. PUBLICATION: The Washington Post DATE: 2009.02.28 SECTION: Editorials PAGE: A12 WORD COUNT: 521 - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Preemptive Strike Domestic violence suspects should be forced to relinquish their weapons. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "FIREARMS AND domestic strife are a potentially deadly combination nationwide." So wrote Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg this week in an opinion upholding a federal law that bars convicted domestic violence abusers from possessing firearms. Seven justices, including conservatives Clarence Thomas and Samuel A. Alito Jr., joined the opinion. This is the same Supreme Court that held last year that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to bear arms. If the justices can bless such a law, one wonders why Maryland lawmakers cannot follow suit and embrace an equally sensible measure. Yesterday, the Maryland House Judiciary Committee buckled to pressure from gun rights supporters and others and postponed a vote on a pair of bills to prevent domestic abuse suspects from possessing guns. One bill gives judges the discretion to take guns away from an individual who is subject to a temporary protective order. The other removes that discretion and compels the seizure of guns possessed by someone subject to a permanent protective order. A protective order may be entered in Maryland only if the judge finds "clear and convincing evidence" of abuse -- a much tougher standard than exists in most states. The committee sensibly passed a third, related bill that extends the time during which protective orders may be served. Currently, such orders become invalid after 30 days if the suspect has not been served, forcing the victim to return to court to obtain new ones. The bill, sponsored by Del. Luiz R.S. Simmons (D-Montgomery), allows initial orders to be valid for up to six months without requiring renewal. Once the order is served, the suspect is entitled to a hearing within seven days. As with any gun proposal, there has been strong resistence from opponents, including a surprising source: the Maryland Fraternal Order of Police. The organization argues that the livelihoods of police officers could be jeopardized if judges seize their weapons because of a frivolous domestic violence accusation. It is seeking a change that would give judges the discretion to allow officers to keep their guns even if they are under permanent orders. To be sure, every law has the potential to be abused, but the judicial oversight required by both gun seizure bills should be a check against that. More important, police officers who abide by the law and refrain from domestic violence have nothing to fear. Preventing domestic abuse suspects from having guns does not guarantee that they will not harm their victims through other means. But it would go a long way in stemming violence: More than half of the domestic-violence-related murders committed last year in Maryland involved guns. The Judiciary Committee is scheduled to take up the gun seizure bills on Monday. Lawmakers should vote for these reasonable public safety measures and resist pressure to water them down. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:32:04 -0600 From: Edward Hudson Subject: Re: Canadian Bill of Rights Thanks, Lee, interesting stuff. Sincerely, Eduardo On 27-Feb-09, at 11:18 AM, Lee Jasper wrote: > This may be interesting reading for all concerned about Rights. > > Precedent cases are provided for: > > 1. Recognition and declaration of rights and freedoms -. > ... . >> http://www.canadianprisonlaw.com/misc/billofrights.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:48:41 -0700 From: Bill Farion Subject: Re: CanWest Hi, Last thing we need is CanWest! When they go bust this twit should be out of a job! Cdn-Firearms Digest wrote: > press and government still encourages people to be victims. The Canadian > charter allows Canadians the right to self-defence; however, the > government refuses to allow Canadians to carry the tools required for > their self-defence. If I were to carry a knife, pepper spray, Taser or a > bat, I would have to worry about the legal consequences. > > Jordan Rivest > > (The last thing we need is more hotheads with weapons.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:35:36 -0500 From: Lee Jasper Subject: Re: Prove it Ross commented: >> "Bentley said since its initiation the centre has >> > spearheaded 11 major >> > prosecutions, made 450 arrests, laid 3,500 charges and >> > removed thousands >> > of guns from circulation." >> > >> > Thousands of guns eh... sounds like Coalition for gun >> > control >> > inflationary statistics to me. Prove it. Bruce added: > Good catch there! I have a tendency to tune out what most politicians > say, as I assume that they are lying to begin with. > > Since this is a government agency, they must make reports, so we should be > able to access this one's, and see what they are really up to. Fire off a letter to your MPP asking for Bentley's explanation and a report of the police group's activities and statistics. McGuinty may not be New, Open or Accountable but his gov't responds to questions within a few weeks - and one seldom needs to use the Privacy Commissioner to get answers. This is the way a 'democracy' is supposed to work. Harper may have studied some brand of now failed economics but he certainly overlooked taking Intro Poly Sci and Civics. There's quite a story about the 'driven' PM in this month's Walrus mag. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 13:22:14 -0800 From: Len Miller Subject: There was . . a time . . In the early sixties . . two drug traffickers Ido Zamai, and William Foulder (Fats) Robertson . . were both sentenced to jail for 20 YEARS after being tracked by both RCMP and Vancouver police caught transporting TWO KILOS of heroin . . (two 'bricks' in those days ) from Toronto to Vancouver. With Stewart McMorran as city prosecutor overseeing the charges . . these two got hammered. Later McMorran would charge repeat OFFENDERS as HABITUAL CRIMINALS and OUR judges would impose LIFE SENTENCES. What's this about 'three strikes'? Vancouver was well controlled in those days . . why? Because WE had men with vision and backbone. In THOSE DAYS a magistrate* sentenced an Alberta perp with a history of violence to police to TWO YEARS . no parole, then, saying 'Nobody assaults MY police . .'' We don't have a McMorran replacement . Worse, we have had a run of judges vying for mention in Cartsen Stroud's Contempt of Court . THE BETRAYAL OF JUSTICE IN CANADA . . Though the criminal Code contains sufficient sentencing for murderous home invasions, rapes, robberies, AND gun offences today's judiciary can't seem to exercise their claim to independence, by actually going by the Code. Instead they go by other judges . . now, there's independence . . With gangs duking it out in every major city in Canada, the one underlying conclusion which the communities has divined/detected/caught on to, . . is the judges have lost it . When the prime minister came to Vancouver our AG went to Ottawa . . Never got received. After threatening criminals with severe punishment . they were so afraid 'they' instantly shot another one . . Just like the day the gun legislation was inked in Ottawa, the Cheema house in Vancouver, had its FOURTH drive by shooting . . Yep, pass another law, and the perps will shiver in their boots . . Man found in ditch, in overturned car? Question: Do you feel safer? I certainly don't . . It's NOT laws we need . . it's judges * . . the hard work of 1, 10, or a 100 cops can and will be ruined by ONE judge . . citing the Charter . . Len Miller Vancouver ( PS Yes, you don't have to tell me . .'they' won't like this . .) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 16:58:40 -0500 From: Lee Jasper Subject: Re: Drop the political pacifier Just musing.... . . . Eduardo emphatically posited: > Damn the Firearms Act! > Damn everyone that won't damn the Firearms Act! > As the Kevin emphasizes, it is the licensing component of the Firearms > Act that accounts for the major cost. > And as Bruce & Al continue to hammer home, > it is the licensing component of the Firearms Act that destroys our > Right to have 'Armes for their Defense." I can hear multiple double-taps accentuate Eduardo's assertion. We need the Reality Check. But it is not productive to not recognize and work with the history and events that brought us to where we're at. It's no advantage to not account for the plight of all active restricted owners and the Clubs they support plus the 4,000 plus hunt camps across Ontario, etc. I keep repeating that the ancient tomes upon which we base our faith in the legitimacy of our Rights - short of a 2nd amendment - have little starch upon our gov't until we get even one little nondescript Court to take our side. It took years for me to finally recognize that NB Judge Jean Claude Angers (think I've got the name correct - of 1995 fame) would not be our Messiah. We'll not see CCC 91, 92 and other such offending sections removed by 'control freak' Conservatives or 'greatest good' Liberals. If there's nothing to compel, we aren't likely to comply. And the logic starts to pale when it's suggested that a 'certificate' would be OK - if it's required in order to be compliant to be able to enjoy the right to posses armes for one's defense. Would we then insist upon no CPIC Insta type check? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:41:44 -0700 From: "Med Crotteau" Subject: Fw: Tillsonburg Garry & crew: By God, it is a sure sign of desperation when your office presents the opinion of 40 people in rural Ontario as indicating the national opinion ! I am against a people registry, period, but even more so one that only includes the honest folk and ignores the criminal element. We Anglos are, as a people, very similar to Norwegians and we all should recall what transpired there between 1933 and 1941 when Vidkun Quisling, their Interior Minister of the day, registered all gun owners, then handed the list over to the Germans. That act caused many thousands of deaths and set back the Resistance a year or more. The execution of Quisling after the war as a traitor did in no way mitigate his terrible imposition on his fellow countrymen and women. The registry of long guns in a country like Canada is and always has been unworkable and a waste of money. More importantly, a people registry that is less than 95% accurate is unenforceable. Oh yes, the authorities can be a pain in the neck to a few, lawyers can prosper but by attempting to enforce such unfair laws the government of the day (you) only create a nation of scofflaws, which becomes progressively more contrary. Dictatorships always breed defiance. Do you see no connection between the proliferation of illegal guns, the disrepute that our police forces invite, the spasmodic fluttering of the beaurocracy and the indecisive findings of our law courts ? Perhaps when Pierre Trudeau famously bragged of turning the ship of state around 180 degrees he then removed the rudder and we have been drifting with wind and tide ever since, unable to steer a straight course with determination. Your party lost my support some time ago because they took me for a fool who has not watched the human parade for these 60 adult years. Get back to basics, keep your promises, eliminate useless laws and then you might prove yourselves worthy of being granted majority government status. You cannot pretend to be all things to all people then ignore them and still consider that you are governing. Stephen Harper is not a leader and never has been. I liken him to a yapping Border Collie that leads a weak-sheep caucus by nipping at their heels. Sadly, I see not a soul in your Cabinet who is any better; least of all Day or Van Loan. Please prove me wrong and become once again worthy of our affection and support. This country desperately needs a strong government and if we don't smarten up Barrack Hussein may just present us with one ! Stranger things have happened. When the next election suddenly faces us you will either prove me right or you will prove me wrong. For the first time in 80 years I wish to be proven wrong. With all sincerity, Willy Floyd ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:45:49 -0700 From: "Todd Brown" Subject: guns vs cars Help me out to complete this list, please. I know I missed a bunch....... We license and register our cars, so what it be any different to do the same for firearms? You tell me if you would own a car with the same rules. You can own as many cars as you want without registering them, or having a drivers license. Simple possession of a(one) firearm WITHOUT a licence is illegal. Possessing a firearm that is not registered is also illegal. Possible 5 years in jail for these two. It is the law to have all firearms locked up under 1 or 2 layers of security. You will be charged with a crime for letting your firearms get stolen. "unsafe storage" It is the law to tell the government when and where you move....jail time if you do not. It is the law to give the government a complete inventory of all firearms you own. "Possession of an unregistered weapon" more jail time. If a police officer's gun fires by accident it is called an "accidental discharge" and they may get a slap on the hand,....You or me have the same thing happen, and it is called "negligent discharge" .We get charged and possible jail time. Take care, Todd Brown BV Hunting Supplies office 780-789-3619 office fax 780-789-3831 cell 780-974-1287 e-mail bladesandthings@airsurfer.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 17:06:19 -0600 (CST) From: "Howard R. Hamilton" Subject: Re: Different Strokes Greetings! Ian Jefferson wrote: > Hopefully a few of you will read this and take it to heart. > > There is a lot of passion on the list and IMHO too much infighting. > There are a lot of different views on this same vigorous agreement > regarding firearms. Lots of good thoughts in the snipped part, but it can be re-read in the original message. I just wanted to express my opinion a bit. We are a very diversified lot. At the same time, in the end we all want the same thing: namely hassle free ownership of our property. And guns are both part of that property, and part of the means that we have to protect both it and ourselves. Unfortunately, that is not a highly likely outcome in the current political environment. So we have to fight for it. That is what this forum is here for, to help us in that fight. It gives us a method to communicate with each other and a resource to help in the fight. All of us here are fighting that battle, in our own way. From the hard core heroes like Bruce Montague and those who are standing the same ground like Al Muir, to our vocal scribes like Bruce Mills and Mike Ackerman who keep the media on their toes. There are many more names that should be here, but we all know who they are, and a lot of them are fighting beneath the radar. (Besides, I know that I would miss a few if I tried to reiterate all of them, and would not want to insult anyone because I forgot them) I want the diversity to continue. I only ask that people be civil to each other on this forum. > So that's it. There's lots to dislike about this curmudgeon-y crowd, > but there is a *lot* more to like. Willy, Al, Rob, Joe, Bruce, Lee, > Mike... all "right" and all a bit different. > > Focus on the common ground. > > Freedom. > > Ian - green gun nut. > > P.S. > We need another moderator.... It's easy, Howard or I can teach you in > 2 hours. Ian is right about the technical side of it (the editing and resending of messages is not difficult) but it takes a lot to keep this crowd civil with each other, and that only comes with experience and brass (non-metallic kind). Thanks to all for all of your contributions. BUZ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 16:04:35 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: NP _ Letter - Bans don't work http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=1338546 Bans don't work National Post Published: Saturday, February 28, 2009 Re: Cutting Up The Knife Ban, Colby Cosh, Feb. 27. I think a lot of Edmontonians agree with Colby Cosh's feelings about the futility of the proposed knife ban. I spent three months on the trauma service at Edmonton's Royal Alexandra Hospital several years ago as part of my residency and saw many stabbing victims. Almost every one of them was just out "minding their own business" when they were stabbed. A knife ban is not the answer. I worry it could make the homicide rate worse as criminals find other, more deadly ways of hurting each other. Maybe a better strategy would be to ban people from "minding their own business." Dr. Andrea Skorenki, Edmonton. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 16:07:54 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Vancouver Sun - Two men in custody after B.C. shooting http://www.vancouversun.com/news/custody+after+shooting/1340565/story.html Two men in custody after B.C. shooting Canwest News ServiceFebruary 28, 2009 11:01 AM SURREY, B.C. --Police arrested two men after another shooting incident in the Lower Mainland, this one a case of shots being fired at a home in the area of 130th street and 68th avenue in Surrey. Shortly after midnight, Surrey RCMP received reports of multiple gunshots at a house in a Surrey neighbourhood. In a news release Saturday, RCMP said several vehicles were seen fleeing the scene. Police apprehended two men and took them into custody. It is believed that no one was injured in the targeted attack, said RCMP. It's been a bloody month for gang violence in Vancouver suburbs with eight gang-related deaths in February, including two women. One woman was gunned down in her SUV while her four-year-old son watched from the back seat. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 16:13:49 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Mills Subject: Kelowna Capital-News - Firearms stolen in Kelowna http://www.bclocalnews.com/okanagan_similkameen/kelownacapitalnews/news/40458343.html Firearms stolen in Kelowna Published: February 28, 2009 12:00 PM About 20 firearms have gone missing from an outdoor store following a break-in, police said Friday afternoon. Sometime between 7 p.m., Thursday, and 8 a.m., Friday, Grouse River Outfitters on Highway 97 was broken into. The owner was still in the process of confirming what was missing Friday, but police report approximately 20 handguns and rifles were stolen. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 00:54:38 -0600 (CST) From: "Jim Szpajcher" Subject: [none] <49A96631.9010100@telus.net> Subject: Re: ACCESS Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 22:11:20 -0700 Sender: owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca Precedence: normal Reply-To: cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca Bill - > Anybody know what a regular subscription for Access to Firearms is these > days? > > No answer to phone or email! If no one responds to phone or email, how would you subscribe? The Gunrunner just stopped coming one month. Having said that, my February, 2009 issue says: 12 issues - $38.00, 24 issues - $68.00, First Class w/envelope - 12 issues - $50.00. Jim Szpajcher St. Paul, AB ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 07:14:48 -0800 From: Len Miller Subject: It's working! The Editor The Globe and Mail Sir, It seems to be working! The loaded gun/ pit bull test, I mean. Out here in BC, yet another citizen seems to have made the loaded gun/pit bull test .. Three pit bulls were used . . I guess the owner had three guns . . ( to make it fair ) . . Well, it seems the test actually worked, as the pit bulls attacked a man and bit him up pretty good. No sign of his guns, Ron Charach. Could it be he had no guns? ( who needs guns when you got pit bulls?) No matter, eh? You still have to explain why guns are more dangerous than pit bulls . Ah, well, Len Miller from Vancouver where 'knives are more dangerous than pit bulls' . . ------------------------------ Date: Sun, March 1, 2009 9:57 am From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 2" Subject: Letter: Firearms Act tracks only those who are not criminals PUBLICATION: The Sunday Herald DATE: 2009.03.01 SECTION: Letters PAGE: A12 The federal Conservatives' continuing efforts to lump everything bad about the Firearms Act into the globular Firearms Registry has confused many gun owners. One need look no further than MP Garry Breitkreuz's website to find that the licensing component was the main culprit in the cost overruns, not the registry. However, that bit of information has to be ignored if you intend to retain the Firearms Act POL/PAL (possession only licence/possession acquisition licence) component, which Breitkreuz's Bill C-301 does. POL/PAL licensing is a people registry that tracks only those who are not criminals. It appears the Conservatives are intent on continuing to monitor the law-abiding, who are not the problem, while criminals continue to ignore POL/PAL while they shoot away. C-301 continues to make criminals out of citizens for nothing more than their "papers" not being in order. The National Coalition of Provincial and Territorial Wildlife Federations (which includes the Nova Scotia Federation of Anglers and Hunters) has called POL/PAL licensing an "unjustified, expensive, ineffectual intrusion into Canadians' lives." Perhaps this is the reason the Conservatives hid behind a private member's bill that anyone with any knowledge of the workings of the House of Commons knows has little chance of passing, rather than present government legislation that would have a real impact on the Liberals' Firearms Act - an impact not contained in C-301. Al Muir, Stellarton ------------------------------ Date: Sun, March 1, 2009 10:02 am From: "Breitkreuz, Garry - Assistant 2" Subject: Column: Ban on blades has been dismal failure in Great Britain PUBLICATION: The Calgary Sun DATE: 2009.03.01 EDITION: Final SECTION: Editorial/Opinion PAGE: 20 BYLINE: IAN ROBINSON WORD COUNT: 546 - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cuts like a knife Ban on blades has been dismal failure in Great Britain - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I was but a lad, my parents -- both the children of immigrants -- shanghaied me for one of those ghastly, sentimental, return-to-your-roots trips to the old country. It's ghastly because you skip the fun parts of the country. That's because if the immigrants from whom you are descended were having a lot of fun, they never would have left. So after a couple of days in one dreary, filthy, depressed Scottish mining town in August, I understood why Timmins in February looked so good to grandma and grandpa. One day I got free of the ancient relatives and the ancient relative smell and my parents, and I'm walking down a street wondering what people do here to liven things up -- other than saw open a vein -- when I spy this girl. I stare 'cause she's gorgeous and I'm 15 and male. When the guy she's with angrily demands to know what I'm looking at, I tell him exactly, omitting no lewd detail. (Did I mention I was young and cocky? And not bright?) And it was on. He was across the street in a couple of bounds but I wasn't worried because I was a head-and-a-half taller thanks to good old North American nutrition. And then he reached into his pocket and I thought, "knife," and started to get scared. He did not pull a knife. What he produced had started out as a stainless steel comb. The tines were wrapped in tape and the handle ground down to razor sharpness and he tried to slash my face open with it. He got the left arm I put up instead, went through my sleeve like it wasn't there, and I bled like a pig. I didn't burst into tears or beg or anything, but it was close. It was only after I kicked a picket off a fence and broke it over his head that the lunatic grinned at me and said something to the effect that the girl wasn't worth it, and invited me to go drinking with him instead. Not being entirely stupid, I went. It had to be more fun being his friend than his enemy. The girl turned out to be his sister. The three of us had a good time once I got the bleeding stopped. A decade later, a buddy of mine visited Britain. His cousins stopped to buy darts on their way to a soccer match. My friend asked if they were going to stop somewhere and play darts. They looked at him like he had a head injury and explained that the darts weren't for a dart board. They were to throw from a great height onto the fans of the opposing team at the soccer stadium. Which brings us to Edmonton Mayor Stephen Mandel who, in the wake of a fatal stabbing in his city, called for a ban on the sale of knives. "We need to find a way to put a strong lobbying position before the federal (and) provincial government if we can't pass legislation to stop knives being sold in our city. It's enough already. We maybe should've done something earlier, but it seemed under control. "Now, it's back alive and, unfortunately, well and we can't have that," he said. I would point him to the experience of Great Britain. It is home to the most stringent anti-knife laws on the planet. A student can be sentenced to two years in prison if caught with a knife on school property. Not for stabbing somebody or committing an actual hostile act, but for mere possession. It's illegal to sell a knife to anyone under 16. Carrying an "offensive weapon" in public can result in four years in jail. The result of all those tough laws? Virtual bans on knives and guns, added to what amounts to a judicial ban on self-defence, where the duty to retreat is greater than the right to fight back. Great Britain has a rate of rape, violent assault, burglary and auto theft roughly 60% higher than that of the U.S. All that in a country with more cops per capita than the U.S. A Brit is three times more likely to be violently assaulted by a thug than the average American. The lesson we should learn is this, Mr. Mayor: Thugs find a way. They always find a way. The answer isn't to pass yet another law. The answer is to reform a judiciary that refuses to put thugs behind bars for meaningful lengths of time, and to tear up the act governing youth crime that allows teens to kill and maim with virtual impunity. Until then, passing knife bans is merely an exercise in futility. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V13 #91 ********************************** Submissions: mailto:cdn-firearms-digest@scorpion.bogend.ca Mailing List Commands: mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca Moderator's email: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca List owner: mailto:owner-cdn-firearms@scorpion.bogend.ca FAQ list: http://www.canfirearms/Skeeter/Faq/cfd-faq1.html Web Site: http://www.canfirearms.ca CFDigest Archives: http://www.canfirearms.ca/archives To unsubscribe from _all_ the lists, put the next four lines in a message and mailto:majordomo@scorpion.bogend.ca unsubscribe cdn-firearms-digest unsubscribe cdn-firearms-chat unsubscribe cdn-firearms end (To subscribe, use "subscribe" instead of "unsubscribe".)